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Old 17th July 2012, 13:55   #16
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Default Re: Interaction with the Local Population

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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Excellent topic for discussion, especially after some recent fiasco's.



Also, I feel one's ability to converse with locals in their language can sometimes act as a real differentiating factor. Those who have experienced this first hand will realize the importance of this point.



LOL, reminds me of someone.

Spike
My points to the Land and OT ing:
1. If possible, do a pre-recce and while doing recon do collect info from the locals and inform them of the possible time/date to expect a flurry of vehicles.
2. If possible, the locals can be even asked for alternate routes, to avoid disturbing their peace and place.
3. As spike pointed out, kindly avoid plastic litter.

Spike sir, little OT: Your signature: German reads with grammatical mistake: Would you mind, if I correct?
Should read: Verb always comes second, or when u already have a verb,then your main verb goes to the end of the sentence.
"Wenn du weißt dass du in etwas gut bist, dann, gib es nie frei"
original:
"Wenn du weißt, du bist gut in etwas, nie geben es frei."

Last edited by Amartya : 18th July 2012 at 02:03. Reason: Minor Edit: Removed formatting tags.
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Old 17th July 2012, 21:08   #17
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

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Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post

you said it , additionally it can be held in a stadium ,
Sudarshanji, in a stadium? I am not sure if it will be feasible in India, any other place where you have seen / heard such events happening in a stadium?

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post

Spike sir, little OT: Your signature: German reads with grammatical mistake: Would you mind, if I correct?
Should read: Verb always comes second, or when u already have a verb,then your main verb goes to the end of the sentence.
"Wenn du weißt dass du in etwas gut bist, dann, gib es nie frei"
original:
Wenn du weißt, du bist gut in etwas, nie geben es frei."
OT-

Thanks for highlighting your point, appreciate. Actually, I just copied my signature here in English and Google translated it, did not cross check.

Now that you mention, I notice it. But still I have a doubt if there can be 2 'Nebensatze' with 1 'Hauptsatze' as written in my original version. Also, whether the verb conjugation for 'geben' w.r.t 'es' must be gib (as told by you) or gibt as per conjugation rule, that also I need to check. You are right about the verb position and I think what you say makes sense, I will verify with my language teacher tomorrow and then correct it.

Ich bin Ausländer und spreche nicht gut Deutsch. ( I am a foreigner and I do not speak good German).

I am still learning the language.

Spike

Last edited by Amartya : 18th July 2012 at 02:02. Reason: Minor Edit: removed formatting tags.
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Old 17th July 2012, 21:16   #18
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Also, I feel one's ability to converse with locals in their language can sometimes act as a real differentiating factor. Those who have experienced this first hand will realize the importance of this point.
An interesting thread and couldn't agree more with spikey's statement. If there is someone who can speak the local language it always helps.
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Ich bin Ausländer und spreche nicht gut Deutsch. ( I am a foreigner and I do not speak good German).

I am still learning the language.

Spike
and your location shows Gods own country. When did our mallu land folks start conversing in German maga ?

Last edited by rjstyles69 : 17th July 2012 at 21:19.
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Old 17th July 2012, 21:59   #19
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

Unless offroading is treated as a sport and accordingly permissions etc are sought and approved any TDH with a mobile phone can really cause a lot of anxiety and confusion. So i feel we should work towards making this recognized as an adventure activity. Rest of the stuff is just common sense MOST of us follow, but is not even 50% fool proof.

Am talking form an event perspective, not 5-10 jeeps venturing out, where the content of this thread will work 99% of the time.

Just my 2 pence.
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Old 17th July 2012, 22:34   #20
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

Forest lands are out of bounds. There is no way any forest department will give permission to conduct an event inside a forest and rightly so.

The issue is limited to passing through forest land to get to the venue that is on private land, perhaps agricultural land or waste land adjunct to agricultural land, even maybe quarries or mines. One often has to pass through forests to get there. This should pose no problem as long as one sticks to the road/track and follows the guidelines for travelling through the forest.

Buffer zones will remain a grey area and sometimes one might get the nod from the forest officials to have an event in a buffer zone.

Forest demarcation in India is extremely hap-hazard, some thick forests (maybe no animals but definitely trees) are not declared as forests, some proclaimed forest areas have no trappings of a forest, no flora, no fauna, nothing. Just for e.g. while returning from Bombay after the MCube 2012 and the fracas with the forest dept. there, our party saw more wildlife (black buck and a pair of wild cats) on NH 9 between Solapur and Naldurg than in the much acclaimed forest area near Mumbai.
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Old 18th July 2012, 06:31   #21
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

organizing a 4x4 event is a complicated and time consuming anywhere in the world.

In India it is even more complicated for various factors too numerous to mention here.

It is great that we are discussing how things can and should be done,hindsight is a great thing . It is now very evident that using public or forest land is a major problem.

It is not a straight forward process to organize one of these events due to various constraints everybody who has organized one of these events will be fully aware of.

Organizers have to be cautious and exercise common sense.

Humor me guys but As an exercise we can all pen down constructive points on this thread which can then be compiled into a easy to follow Yes/No flow chart by maybe one of the IT guys? . This can maybe be used as a guide when organizing one of these events in the future.

I will start,hopefully people will add to the list(may not be in correct order)

1.Is this event going to be held on private land?
2.Is the event going to be held on public land?
3.is the course natural terrain?
4.is the course man made
5.do we have required permission from forest dep?
6.do we have required permission from land owner?
7.is the event competitive or non competitive?
8.is the event profit or non profit?
9.is the event for SUV/softroaders?
10.only MT tyres etc.
11.HT tyres permissable?
12.
13.
14.

If we can compile the required data and design a flow chart(we can keep adding to it)I feel it will greatly help, the flow chart never lies only YES or NO answers, no maybes etc

Last edited by motocamp : 18th July 2012 at 06:49.
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Old 18th July 2012, 11:10   #22
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

Dear Friends,

I would like to add my 2 cents.Having been involved in organising motorsport , off road as well as rally for the last 15 to 18 years , this is what we would do AFTER we had done our route survey/ recee and finalised the route:

A. GOVERNMENT DEPTS.

1. Inform the following govt. departments with a covering letter and a map of the route giving the date and time the event will pass on the route:

a. District collector/ magistrate.

b. Police department and police stations of that area.( These were multiple as the event went from one area to other)

c. Traffic police (at flag off and on tarmac route)

d. Irrigation department for canal and dam areas.

c. Forest department YES forest department for forest areas ( private forest / govt. lands).

d. All hospitals along route / nearby.

e. Local RTO.

f. Local village panchayat. ( very important)

By doing the above the relevant Govt. departments would be very clear of what activity we were undertaking and there would be no confusion of any sort.

Also we would invite a high ranking official from any of these departments to flagg of the event.

LOCALS:

a. Identjfy the owners of land on which the event takes place and Talk to them and take their permission to use the land.

b.Many times it is a govt./public land so involve the local body like village panchayat etc.

c. Distribute leaflets in local language about the event , date . time , etc.

d. Talk to the villagers and distribute caps and stickers , if funds permit then T shirts.

e. Ask some of the villagers to be present on the route on the day of the event.


MEDIA

a. Have a press conference involving the local media and explain the event to them.

b. Take the local media on the route for a drive 2 to 3 days before the event and also on the date of event.

By following the above ,Touch Wood , we have not faced any problems till date.

cheers,
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Old 18th July 2012, 12:03   #23
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

Just for thinking

1) Should there be a Limit as to how many events can go on in a Particular District within an Year

2) Who should be Qualified to hold an event ??

I cant resist giving an example --- In Pune we have Public Festival Of Lord Ganesha , There are Groups ( Mandals ) who have a Pendal in a particular Locality .
Now the original Idea has got so deteriorated that we have a Pandal every 100 feet ( its True ) & groups formed at every Junction .

Moral of this is everyone wants a Piece of Cake . This needs to be avoided at Offroading

3) What Should be the definition ( wrt Class & functioning ) Of an Event

4) Should there be a body to maintain self discipline ??


Sudarshan
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Old 18th July 2012, 12:52   #24
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

Good topic of discussion keeping the current state of affairs in the off road circle. The issues getting raised by the government officials or by the neighbor residence is quit valid, as we enter their territories without proper written approvals or taking the close locals and villagers in confidence.
I think it would be a good idea to initiate some of the best practices what many of the matured countries implement while having off road event.

Would like to share my experience in Jakarta, which has the largest number of off road event in the region.

There are more than 150 off road clubs with more than 200 plus 4x4 machines per group. All these groups are under a parent organization IOF (Indonesian Off road Federation).

The well established off road group’s volunteers for the up-liftment of the rural part of the country by providing support. (Like; water / school facilities / agriculture support / distributing cloths/ food etc)

Besides this, these clubs work hand in hand with the government entities during natural calamities or any such exigencies. This acts as friendly gesture by the off road community.

Then for any off road events during the starting ceremony it is customary to plant trees in that area to compensate for any vegetation damages caused during the drive.

I know we are in the preliminary stage in this journey, but it would be good if the organized groups in India initiate such practices at least in a small way to built up the credibility and confidence in the minds of the people / media and community.

Attached pix of 2011 west Java event in Jakarta.
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Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use-wj1.jpg  

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Old 19th July 2012, 01:13   #25
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

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Originally Posted by vinair View Post
Agreed, the more I use, the more I pay and why I pay the more?? because its cheap! Can I ask my dear friends to burn petrol on these machines and then mud plunge??
Of course, some of your friends do burn petrol and mud plunge, they are called the Gypsies, Marutis first of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravveendrra View Post
The issue is limited to passing through forest land to get to the venue that is on private land
I guess that kind of a situation should be totally avoided. We should try not to organise an OTR on such places then. It may be very little and very careful, but it still attracts these kind of unwanted negative publicity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rallystar View Post
A. GOVERNMENT DEPTS.

1. Inform the following govt. departments with a covering letter and a map of the route giving the date and time the event will pass on the route:

a. District collector/ magistrate.

b. Police department and police stations of that area.( These were multiple as the event went from one area to other)

c. Traffic police (at flag off and on tarmac route)

d. Irrigation department for canal and dam areas.

c. Forest department YES forest department for forest areas ( private forest / govt. lands).

d. All hospitals along route / nearby.

e. Local RTO.

f. Local village panchayat. ( very important)

By doing the above the relevant Govt. departments would be very clear of what activity we were undertaking and there would be no confusion of any sort.

Also we would invite a high ranking official from any of these departments to flagg of the event.

LOCALS:

a. Identjfy the owners of land on which the event takes place and Talk to them and take their permission to use the land.

b.Many times it is a govt./public land so involve the local body like village panchayat etc.

c. Distribute leaflets in local language about the event , date . time , etc.

d. Talk to the villagers and distribute caps and stickers , if funds permit then T shirts.

e. Ask some of the villagers to be present on the route on the day of the event.


MEDIA

a. Have a press conference involving the local media and explain the event to them.

b. Take the local media on the route for a drive 2 to 3 days before the event and also on the date of event.

By following the above ,Touch Wood , we have not faced any problems till date.

cheers,
Fantastic inputs sir, this should serve as a guideline or checklist for all future OTRs. The little effort that it takes is worth all the peace that it would ensure. REQUEST TO MODS... This could be a sticky in the 4x4 section.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Just for thinking

1) Should there be a Limit as to how many events can go on in a Particular District within an Year

2) Who should be Qualified to hold an event ??

4) Should there be a body to maintain self discipline ??
Sudarshan
Suppose we fix a body/ a qualified monitor for every area, who will monitor the monitors ? Don't you think every adult has to be responsible for what he/she is doing especially when it involves quite a few people and their families including their vehicles ?
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Old 19th July 2012, 10:44   #26
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

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Of course, some of your friends do burn petrol and mud plunge, they are called the Gypsies, Marutis first of course.

Buddy, that would be a handful of Gypsies, does not tally with the number of diesel powered vehicles in an event. Agree??
It is a tricky topic in a hypocritic society of ours.

Last edited by khan_sultan : 19th July 2012 at 20:54. Reason: fixed quotes
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Old 20th July 2012, 11:14   #27
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

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Originally Posted by vinair View Post
Buddy, that would be a handful of Gypsies, does not tally with the number of diesel powered vehicles in an event. Agree??
It is a tricky topic in a hypocritic society of ours.
Yep, They are handful. In a few of the recent OTR 's that I had attended, These gypsies participated with open exhausts and modified headers, These engines were quite powerful and made a lot of Noise in the forest area, the drivers least concerned about the noise they were making, they simply stepped on the throttle just to show off their machines . As if they were in a WRC event or something.
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Old 20th July 2012, 14:44   #28
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

Good thread Arka.

As a rule we must stay out of forests. These are fragile environments and anything more than a Jeep or two at a time starts taking a heavy toll in terms of the disturbance the intrusion causes.

Coming to the issue of locals and how to win cooperation here are a few suggestions. We need to understand that rural India is still very poor and corrupt government officials and politicians siphon out what ever little is to come the villager's way even before it reaches them.

Start by making the event a community development program. use the event to generate funds to help the local community.

here are something's you can do.

Contribute toward the local school in terms of a computer or books or furniture

organise a health camp and free medicine

repair breached tank bunds so that water gets retained for all year round use

Basically use some of the profits for a community development program

This way you not only earn the cooperation of the locals but they actually will look forward to your visit

If we show we care they will respond with double the warmth and welcome anyone could ever desire. Villagers are simple people who need to feel cared for.
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Old 25th July 2012, 00:41   #29
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

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What a thread!! brilliant!! I was contemplating starting one such a thread and here it is! thanks buddy!

4) Levy extra tax on these events for wasting precious fuel for fun
5) Only registered organizers to hold such events and ban individuals from venturing into protected places (unless provided permission) unless the land belongs to a private party

Well said

Diesel is a subsidized fuel . It was subsidized for running farm equipments and irrigation water lifting pumps. It still remains subsidized to cater to the Public transport and to transport commodities.
Thanks to the many loopholes in our system, we run Mercedes and Jaguar on Diesel, while poor farmers are forced use the premium petrol for their daily commute on a two wheeler
Offroading is recreational activity more so wreckreational when we use forest lands and litter plastics everywhere.
We should at least pay a 100% tax on the fuel we burn for such activities.
Taxes necessarily need not be levied by the Government, we can as well contribute for a Community development program, each participant may support a rural house hold , or buy some farm implements for a society and so on.

Nice thread Arka. Thank you.
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Old 25th July 2012, 02:23   #30
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Default Re: Off-Roading in India & Forest Land Use

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Well said

Diesel is a subsidized fuel . It was subsidized for running farm equipments and irrigation water lifting pumps. It still remains subsidized to cater to the Public transport and to transport commodities.
Thanks to the many loopholes in our system, we run Mercedes and Jaguar on Diesel, while poor farmers are forced use the premium petrol for their daily commute on a two wheeler
Offroading is recreational activity more so wreckreational when we use forest lands and litter plastics everywhere.
We should at least pay a 100% tax on the fuel we burn for such activities.
Taxes necessarily need not be levied by the Government, we can as well contribute for a Community development program, each participant may support a rural house hold , or buy some farm implements for a society and so on.

Nice thread Arka. Thank you.
Nothing towards any profession here, but some of the richest families of India are farmer families, then they diversified into other industries. Almost everything that they use daily for the farming is subsidised, subsidised diesel, subsidised or free power, heavily subsidised fertilizer, completely financed or heavily subsidised farm equipments, this is hurtful when many of those families can buy these at full price and agricultural income is completely tax free while i pay through my nose, one way i believe that we should do away with every kind of subsidy and make this a completely free economy, though personally i dont believe in doing off-roading and ignorant use of forest land.
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