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Old 30th September 2013, 14:24   #16
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Default Re: Seven Fortuners, One Land Rover & Rajmachi Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guderian View Post
3. And technique. I realised my mistake of last time when I went up the slope in LL or low range and dug myself further in with all the torque. This time just used HL at a single point on the fly and thundered up. The momentum did everything else. Even though Admiral fell in a couple of deep ruts it clambered out on HL rather than digging itself deep. That is something I clearly felt.


Sorry to be pointing out mistakes here but that's not the right way. Three Fortuner Bootcamps later, we've got quite an experience with the Fortuners and let me tell you that HL will burn up your clutch very very fast. Use LL only when offroad and shift to higher gear if you want to reduce torque.

"As slow as possible and as fast as necessary"

Apologies again for going OT or being the critic.
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Old 30th September 2013, 14:36   #17
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Default Re: Seven Fortuners, One Land Rover & Rajmachi Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
Sorry to be pointing out mistakes here but that's not the right way. Three Fortuner Bootcamps later, we've got quite an experience with the Fortuners and let me tell you that HL will burn up your clutch very very fast. Use LL only when offroad and shift to higher gear if you want to reduce torque.

"As slow as possible and as fast as necessary"
Thank you again Tejas.

Just to bring up my own experience.
On that slope (The Devil's Back) going on HH was just not possible and LL had got me bogged down last time, even on going to the higher gear. And this time too one could sense the same. So, this time, what really helped was the HL and certain amount of momentum. LL was to have been the last resort of course.
But yes, I suppose each method has its own positives and negatives and presumably every situation its own set of peculiarities.

Last edited by Guderian : 30th September 2013 at 14:50.
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Old 30th September 2013, 16:08   #18
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Default Re: Seven Fortuners, One Land Rover & Rajmachi Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
Sorry to be pointing out mistakes here but that's not the right way. Three Fortuner Bootcamps later, we've got quite an experience with the Fortuners and let me tell you that HL will burn up your clutch very very fast. Use LL only when offroad and shift to higher gear if you want to reduce torque.

"As slow as possible and as fast as necessary"

Apologies again for going OT or being the critic.
If one is not using clutch, why would the clutch get burnt in 4HL? If one needs momentum than torque, then wouldn't HL be better?

Not arguing, want to understand the rationale for your pov...
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Old 30th September 2013, 16:36   #19
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Default Re: Seven Fortuners, One Land Rover & Rajmachi Revisited

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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
If one is not using clutch, why would the clutch get burnt in 4HL? If one needs momentum than torque, then wouldn't HL be better?

Not arguing, want to understand the rationale for your pov...
You may land up slipping the clutch at higher rpms.

There's an interesting thread here on team-bhp if you're interested:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...-good-bad.html (Using 4L for all offroading needs... good or bad?)
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Old 30th September 2013, 16:57   #20
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Default Re: Seven Fortuners, One Land Rover & Rajmachi Revisited

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Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
Good fun again you guys had. Super pics!

Next time reduce tyre pressure in muck.
Hey Thanks for your inputs Tejas.

I was the only one running low tire pressure.

I was running 28 psi while rest were running 30 psi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
When we used to do the Fortuner Bootcamps, we went down safely to 20 without worrying about the tyre coming off the rim. It did give us a wider footprint for the muck.
^ Good to know that going as low as 20 did not create any problems, Shall try it soon & see the improvement

PS - Read your article in 2013 October issue of ACI magazine it was indeed interesting & quite informative, keep it up
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Old 30th September 2013, 17:00   #21
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Default Re: Seven Fortuners, One Land Rover & Rajmachi Revisited

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Originally Posted by karan561 View Post
PS - Read your article in 2013 October issue of ACI magazine it was indeed interesting & quite informative, keep it up
Thanks, that was just the start and intro article. We've been given 12 articles over the next one year to talk about offroading.
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Old 30th September 2013, 20:14   #22
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Default Re: Seven Fortuners, One Land Rover & Rajmachi Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
You may land up slipping the clutch at higher rpms.

There's an interesting thread here on team-bhp if you're interested:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...-good-bad.html (Using 4L for all offroading needs... good or bad?)
I read all the pages of that thread. In any case, most of that thread deals with Jeeps and Gypsys. The Fortuner is a different vehicle class. with its own characteristics.

I am still not convinced why one would need to drive in 4L when momentum is the need of the hour and not torque. Extra torque can get one dug in/result in wheel slippage faster - especially in a heavy vehicle such as the Fortuner.

The choice would depend on the slope and terrain. I am not sure such a generic rule (drive in 4L whenever you go offroad, and never in 4HL - in a Fortuner) is applicable always.
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Old 30th September 2013, 20:30   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
I read all the pages of that thread. In any case, most of that thread deals with Jeeps and Gypsys. The Fortuner is a different vehicle class. with its own characteristics. I am still not convinced why one would need to drive in 4L when momentum is the need of the hour and not torque. Extra torque can get one dug in/result in wheel slippage faster - especially in a heavy vehicle such as the Fortuner. The choice would depend on the slope and terrain. I am not sure such a generic rule (drive in 4L whenever you go offroad, and never in 4HL - in a Fortuner) is applicable always.
The laws of 4WD vehicles are all the same. Just giving you one last attempt at an explanation:

In mud at rajmacchi, you are not looking at speeds of 50kmph or more. 20-30kmph max is needed which is easily obtained by 3rd gear in low.

What usually destroys a clutch is being in high and then the need to ride / or slip the clutch to keep the engine revs high to generate torque needed for momentum; the torque which you could otherwise have gotten in low range.

Agreed every vehicle has its own characteristics and no law applies universally to jeeps, gypsies and other SUVs as to what exact gear is right but the fundamentals remain the same.

Driving in high gear has more chances of burning your clutch whereas the disadvantage of low gear is just burning more fuel and slower speed and a much lesser chance of clutch going kaput.

Anyways, just trying to help, you guys are most welcome to your driving techniques.
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Old 30th September 2013, 21:49   #24
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Default Re: Seven Fortuners, One Land Rover & Rajmachi Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
I read all the pages of that thread. In any case, most of that thread deals with Jeeps and Gypsys. The Fortuner is a different vehicle class. with its own characteristics.
Hmm, I was heavily involved in that thread, in fact I cleaved it from another thread. Glad to say I don't have to change anything I said there 4.5 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
I am still not convinced why one would need to drive in 4L when momentum is the need of the hour and not torque. Extra torque can get one dug in/result in wheel slippage faster - especially in a heavy vehicle such as the Fortuner.
Gotta agree with Tejas. It is not for torque, but for control. Don't you shift to 2nd or 3rd gear while climbing down in heavily twisting ghat road? Similarly, in offroad trails shown in this thread, 4L is the best option. Besides, you have 5 gears within 4L, you can go slow as required. But 4H limits your slow options. If you need to go faster than what 4L 5th gear allows, then you are not offroading. Offroaders don't ever ride the clutch, they go 4L.
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Old 30th September 2013, 22:20   #25
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Default ToFu

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
I read all the pages of that thread. In any case, most of that thread deals with Jeeps and Gypsys. The Fortuner is a different vehicle class. with its own characteristics.

I am still not convinced why one would need to drive in 4L when momentum is the need of the hour and not torque. Extra torque can get one dug in/result in wheel slippage faster - especially in a heavy vehicle such as the Fortuner.

The choice would depend on the slope and terrain. I am not sure such a generic rule (drive in 4L whenever you go offroad, and never in 4HL - in a Fortuner) is applicable always.
Hi Nilanjan,

You can use any gear you feel like, think off or want to while driving off-road, BUT please

What "class" does the Fortuner fit into?

What are its own (peculiar) characteristics off-road?

What is 1st gear Ratio of the Fortuner?

What is the T-Case Ratio in the Fortuner?

What is the Final Drive/Differential Ratio in the Fortuner?

Why Does the 4x4 Fortuner have a Transfer Case?

What is the Kerb Weight of the Fortuner?

Regards,

Arka
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Old 1st October 2013, 08:58   #26
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Default Re: Seven Fortuners, One Land Rover & Rajmachi Revisited

And now while waiting for output from Kedar's camera & our official photographer's output - which generally comes at the end - here are a few last snaps from my camera.
**Never seen before**

Waiting for Godot...Godots:
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Mad Monkey refusing to be photographed at the first break. Fear of being clobbered by the DOG. Discovery Owners Group. For cavorting with FOG.
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The undulating landscape near D Point:
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The GC of the Fortuner certainly helped at many spots:
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The Land Rover pulls up:
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Trying to get the line organised for the photoshoot:
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Ahmed !
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The line up from another angle:
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Signal to signal that they are ready and better start clicking fast:
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Walking away without waiting for the signal that the photoshoot was complete :
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Nosey parkers had a good peek at the Discovery:
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The engine was so neatly designed.

On the way back:
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On returning found that I had carried back quite a bit of Rajmachi and felt guilty. And the running board had taken quite a few blows.
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Aloha...while we wait patiently for the rest of the snaps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
In mud at rajmacchi, you are not looking at speeds of 50kmph or more. 20-30kmph max is needed which is easily obtained by 3rd gear in low.

What usually destroys a clutch is being in high and then the need to ride / or slip the clutch to keep the engine revs high to generate torque needed for momentum; the torque which you could otherwise have gotten in low range.

Driving in high gear has more chances of burning your clutch whereas the disadvantage of low gear is just burning more fuel and slower speed and a much lesser chance of clutch going kaput.
I understand what you have explained Tejas as well as what Samurai has mentioned.
- That HL usage is pointless in our kind of condition/s and that if at all then wet-snow-ice-sleet roads or patways/conditions are the spots one should deploy it.
- That for all OTR conditions it is safest (for the clutch and otherwise) to deploy LL and with higher gears if speed is required.

Fair enough - would be good trying the same out next time around and coming up with additional learning !

Last edited by Guderian : 1st October 2013 at 09:03.
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Old 1st October 2013, 09:04   #27
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Ok.
Wow.
Before this gets technical, let me jot down a few points.

We are a bunch of Fortuner Owners who like to have a bit of fun with a little bit of offroading.

We are amateurs at offroading and do not have any intentions to claim that we have mastered the art (...yet).

Our cars are all stock and not modified for extreme offroading.

We always look forward to pick a few pointers from the OTR gurus here and enhance our knowledge. Respect !

Lastly, its all about having fun, and, sharing it here !


Now, the Sunday's adventure from my perspective.

The trail :

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Contd..
Attached Images
            
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Old 1st October 2013, 11:17   #28
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Default Re: ToFu

At the outset - perhaps this and the previous posts can be moved to another thread e.g. the 4HL vs 4LL one - instead of diverting this one.

Having said that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
The laws of 4WD vehicles are all the same. Just giving you one last attempt at an explanation:

In mud at rajmacchi, you are not looking at speeds of 50kmph or more. 20-30kmph max is needed which is easily obtained by 3rd gear in low.

What usually destroys a clutch is being in high and then the need to ride / or slip the clutch to keep the engine revs high to generate torque needed for momentum; the torque which you could otherwise have gotten in low range.

Agreed every vehicle has its own characteristics and no law applies universally to jeeps, gypsies and other SUVs as to what exact gear is right but the fundamentals remain the same.

Driving in high gear has more chances of burning your clutch whereas the disadvantage of low gear is just burning more fuel and slower speed and a much lesser chance of clutch going kaput.

Anyways, just trying to help, you guys are most welcome to your driving techniques.
Thanks. That made sense. I am not an expert in offroading, but I do try to understand the underlying principles in anything I do (and see where/why my assumptions might be wrong) and am not comfortable with blindly doing something or following an expert without understanding the 'why' behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Hmm, I was heavily involved in that thread, in fact I cleaved it from another thread. Glad to say I don't have to change anything I said there 4.5 years ago.

Gotta agree with Tejas. It is not for torque, but for control. Don't you shift to 2nd or 3rd gear while climbing down in heavily twisting ghat road? Similarly, in offroad trails shown in this thread, 4L is the best option. Besides, you have 5 gears within 4L, you can go slow as required. But 4H limits your slow options. If you need to go faster than what 4L 5th gear allows, then you are not offroading. Offroaders don't ever ride the clutch, they go 4L.
Thanks. I did some reading and thinking. You guys are right - unless it is sand and or specific snow situations, 4HL doesn't have much use. High(er) speed dirt road/flat trail driving is a different matter where 4HL is rather useful for more control and safety.

What this discussion did - helped me think deeper about this, get more clarity and take a hard look at some assumptions. Discussions like this will come in useful later e.g.in my upcoming trip to Satpura National Park where I will be taking my vehicle inside the park and drive around on jungle trails - all alone. I will going just after the park opens after monsoons, so the trails will be somewhat virgin. Disclaimer: I am more of a touring offroader, and avoid obstacles, mud and water unless I have to go through them (unlike offroaders here who are mostly into sport offroading). Often I am offroading 1000kms away from home without any backup support, so need to be extra careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Nilanjan,

You can use any gear you feel like, think off or want to while driving off-road, BUT please
Arka,

Yes I know that. The right to be skillful or foolish is mine alone.

Not sure about the intent about the rest of your questions, but I will bite since other Fortuner owners might find some of the data points useful.

What "class" does the Fortuner fit into?
A heavy fulltime, LWB 4WD with good torque and power - somewhat different from the nimble Jeeps and Gypsys. That is the difference I was implying when I meant 'different class'. Without getting into relative BHP/ton or Nm/ton comparisons.

What are its own (peculiar) characteristics off-road?
Fulltime 4WD with Torsen LSD which takes care of mild offroading situations? A handy torque curve with a long flat plateau? Decent ability to crawl up sometimes without 4L because of the early and nice torque that kicks in? Stock Dunlop tyres that suck in mud and other slippery conditions? 880NM peak torque b/w 1400-3400RPM in low range?

What is 1st gear Ratio of the Fortuner?
4.313

What is the T-Case Ratio in the Fortuner?
2.566

What is the Final Drive/Differential Ratio in the Fortuner?
39.65

Why Does the 4x4 Fortuner have a Transfer Case?
?? What's the meaning of this question? I would summarize it like this: "low range to be used as and when necessary". And we were discussing whether necessary = always in offroad situations or sometimes, as needed.

What is the Kerb Weight of the Fortuner?
1.97 tons I believe. I might have to lift it during my squatting sessions to confirm that for you, since you are asking so many questions
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Old 1st October 2013, 12:49   #29
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Default Re: ToFu

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
Arka,
I might have to lift it during my squatting sessions to confirm that for you, since you are asking so many questions
Hi Nilanjan,

My Reply http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...ml#post3253557 (Using 4L for all offroading needs... good or bad?)

Don't want to Hijack this lovely off-road excursion thread.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 1st October 2013, 15:01   #30
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Default Re: Seven Fortuners, One Land Rover & Rajmachi Revisited

Finally I get some time to scribble on this thread. It was an amazing gathering as always. Thanks once again to Guderian, Monaro, BHP, Karan, Venkat, Kedar and Mad Monkey for a memorable drive.

I was driving down from Aurangabad and had to join the group @ Kamat's Lonavala by 0730 hrs. I started at 0330 hrs. from Aurangabad and had taken the Ahmednagar - Shirur - Shikrapur - Chakan - Talegaon - Kamshet - Lonavala route. It was an awesome drive, save the pathetic roads between Kaigaon and Nevasa. ODO clocked 587 km base to base. Drive to Lonavala was spirited - 120 kmph average which got me 11.32 kmpl. Return drive was relaxed as I was really tired and heavy traffic between Pune and Ahmednagar, 80 kmph average and a whooping 14.9 kmpl mileage. Reached back to base at around 2030 hrs, took a shower, dinner and slept like a log.

This was the first time I felt exhausted after group drive, probably because I did not join from Bombay. Here are the snaps for the same:

Scenery 1
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Lined up for the first break.
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Scenery 2
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Scenery 3
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Scenery 4
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Even after a deep cleaning drive on Saturday, both inside and outside, this is what happened even before the river crossing at Rajmachi.
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Scenery 5. BHP asked me why was I driving so slow and these snaps are the reason for the same. Yes the drive was awesome, but the scenery was simply mindblowing.
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Scenery 6
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Lined up before the first obstacle - the landslide area
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Conti's were the star of the day!
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Dense vegetation - thanks to monsoons
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Scenery 7
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Scenery 8 - just before the Devil's back
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This is where Monaro was stuck. More on this later.
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Guderian
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Karan, Manish and Venkat. Waiting for their turn on the landslide area
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Guderian climbing on the land slide area
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Guderian climbing on the final donut point.
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Karan guiding Monaro to try and come out of the pit by rocking out.
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Monaro stuck and there was an effort involved to get him out. There is a video on this later.
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Monaro out and Karan and everyone was happy for it. Lunch time now?
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Manish towed Monaro out and it shows in his happiness.
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L-R; BHP, Guderian, Kedarwalke, Monaro CV8, VenkatIyer, Mad Monkey, Karan561
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Partners in the crime
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Customary Tripod shot
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Looking in the Landy's engine bay - Tripod shot once again
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One the way back - some Enfields were slipping away to glory
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Scenery 9
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End of upload limit - to be continued:
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