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Old 23rd July 2008, 15:04   #16
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I disagree. Skill is the single biggest variable!! All the specs in the world mean zilch when you have a dunce at the wheel. I would attribute atleast 50% to driver ability when offroading
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Originally Posted by Alfa_Kilo View Post
I think what he means is that for the sake of a comparison, a skilled driver may drive different vehicles over the same course to compare them.
I think that is what arka is saying. I know for a fact that he would be the first one to say that it is not enough just to venture out with a 4WD. A vehicle is only as good as the driver. There have been one too many incidents proving that point, right arka ?
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Old 23rd July 2008, 15:04   #17
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I think what he means is that for the sake of a comparison, a skilled driver may drive different vehicles over the same course to compare them.
Oh, I got the impression Arka meant that specs alone will determine what makes a superior offroader as "most drivers end up doing the same thing" which as we all know is not the case in reality.

Last edited by DKG : 23rd July 2008 at 15:07.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 15:09   #18
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No pics? I am dying to see them.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 15:29   #19
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Its amusing that on this forum we have many who are eager to declare a Prado as incompetent or lately the Gurkha as "disappointing".
You might find it amusing since you don't know the history of Gurkha adulation on this forum. But for most of us who practically worshiped the Gurkha for last two years it was heart-breaking to see it stuck with rest of the less celebrated brethren. I even have a Gurkha owner in immediate family who waited for a year and got the very first one off the assembly line. I too hoped to buy a Gurkha for over a year before I gave up and looked elsewhere. Heck, I was even willing to consider the Gama 4x4 until they told me they can't give BSIII engine or diff locks.

Here is the thread that started it all: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-of...good-gets.html

I am no off-roading expert like you fellows, but in my short off-roading experience, this is what I have inferred. Offroading is 40% equipment, 40% skill and 20% guts (or madness). As I learn more, the percentage may change slightly, but not significantly unless we are talking about very superior equipment.

Why did we all lust for a Gurkha all this time? Not for their TD engine, A.S.S or Fit&Finish or VFM price, all those are actually in the cons list. It was the front/rear diff locks and may be also superior ride quality.

The water stream crossing made me understand one thing. A normal Gypsy/Jeep with a winch can get out of any mess compared to a diff locked Gurkha without winch.

After the Coorg OTR, I feel that adding a Winch plus rear LSD to a Jeep/Gypsy can more than compensate for lack of diff locks. That leaves A/C and superior ride comfort, that's where one has to decide whether they want to pay 8.5L for this beast.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 16:09   #20
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You might find it amusing since you don't know the history of Gurkha adulation on this forum. But for most of us who practically worshiped the Gurkha for last two years
Worshipped the Gurkha? Why? For a car that's never been sold commercially in India, for a car that's not been used extensively by enough people both onroad and offroad here in India why the adulation? Why place it on an unreal pedestal of assumed competence and then bring it down on the basis of one exposure to the vehicle in Coorg? I think this is quite unfair.

Let enough vehicles be sold in India first. Let it be used by many people and then sit and judge the vehicle. Until then its just a calculated choice given its pedigree and the inherent advantage diff locks give a vehicle.

For all you know you guys may be right eventually that the Gurkha disappoints. But I don't think anyone can credibly assert that the Gurkha is not competent enough.

As for your choice of fixing a winch on a Gypsy or Jeep and feeling that combo renders a Gurkha unviable at its price point, well if you guys are happy having to step out often in slush and winch yourself out so be it. If a few wish to enjoy the benefits of locking diffs and wish to pay the price for that why marginalise that option? Not to mention that the joy of offroading is half gone when you have to winch yourself out of obstacles. Come on Samurai. Winch is a last resort when all else fails. Diff locks is a must for serious offroading. Winch comes as the saving grace!

BTW Samurai the other offroaders at Coorg were Jeeps and Gypsies? These can hardly be declared as less celebrated bretheren. Both these machines are light, nimble and proven offroaders. With diff locks they would be unbeatable. Oh and LSD is a compromise. Serious offroaders go for diff locks not LSD's

Last edited by DKG : 23rd July 2008 at 16:26.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 16:25   #21
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A winch can get any vehicle out of a mess, even a 2WD as long as you have a close anchor point, which is difficult to find in a desert or a beach.

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The water stream crossing made me understand one thing. A normal Gypsy/Jeep with a winch can get out of any mess compared to a diff locked Gurkha without winch.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 16:28   #22
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A winch can get any vehicle out of a mess, even a 2WD as long as you have a close anchor point, which is difficult to find in a desert or a beach.
True, however, you can circumvent that problem by carrying ground pegs though. Having said that I agree in soft desert sand that would be a nightmare trying to get a hold
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Old 23rd July 2008, 16:49   #23
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Worshipped the Gurkha? Why? For a car that's never been sold commercially in India, for a car that's not been used extensively by enough people both onroad and offroad here in India why the adulation? Why place it on an unreal pedestal of assumed competence and then bring it down on the basis of one exposure to the vehicle in Coorg? I think this is quite unfair.
Ah! Welcome to Team-BHP. Since the vehicle was not available for a long time, the legend kept growing... BTW, what do you mean never sold commercially in India, we do have couple of old-gen Gurkha owning members here.

I have more than one exposure, I have two. I was the first to test drive the new Gurkha on Team-BHP. During the TD it was even off-road tested by a seasoned offroader since I didn't feel comptent for the task. http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...-road-too.html
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Old 23rd July 2008, 17:00   #24
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If the car is not underpowered and is shod with the right rubber, with diff locks it can be a killer machine. All I am saying is perhaps we need to give the car a fair chance before we declare it as falling short on expectations. That's all.

BTW Have the few who have bought the old gen one unanimously written it off as disappointing? If I recall one or two I exchanged messages with seemed to think very highly of it.

In the end even a vehicle with diff locks can get stuck. Just that in most situations we have a better chance of not getting stuck as compared to being in a vehicle without diff locks

One of the joys of offroading is how you connect with nature through your vehicle. In undulating terrain such as rocks or gullies when one or two wheels may end up in the air you want a direct connect to both wheels so you can do a precision manuevre and free yourself. LSD does not give you that pure connect. It does the job but there's a sense of disconnect and the driver cannot accurately control the behaviour of the wheels. Which is why hardcore enthusiasts want locking diffs. I'd hate to sit at the wheel and give it throttle hoping the LSD will eventually kick in and pull me out. With each tap on the throttle I would want the car to nudge inch by inch

Last edited by DKG : 23rd July 2008 at 17:12.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 17:21   #25
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DKG, I don't think anybody is claiming Gurkha to be incompetent, I don't understand how you are inferring that. You need to understand that it was first time most of us saw a diff-locked vehicle in action. Therefore the expectations were very high. As I mentioned in my Coorg OTR report, lots of Jeep Thrills members (not Team-BHPians) were checking out the Gurkha in the morning muttering diff-locks and snorkel, etc. Nobody gave a second look at the Pajero parked two Jeeps away.

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BTW Have the few who have bought the old gen one unanimously written it off as disappointing?
No, quite the opposite actually. You really haven't read the older Gurkha threads, have you? The Gurkha legend grew based on their overwhelmingly positive feedback and that famous video.

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BTW Samurai the other offroaders at Coorg were Jeeps and Gypsies? These can hardly be declared as less celebrated bretheren. Both these machines are light, nimble and proven offroaders. With diff locks they would be unbeatable. Oh and LSD is a compromise. Serious offroaders go for diff locks not LSD's
Considering Gurkha is the only off-roader with diff locks in India, do you mean to say none of the Jeep/Gypsy owners are serious off-roaders?

Let's leave out the exotic 30L+ vehicles which are seldom used for offroading.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 17:29   #26
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Another koshun in this discussion of giants.

Would the lighter weight of Gypsy not give it an edge versus the Gurkha?
And how heavy are the MM/CJ series of jeeps?

One thing I realize as a biker going offroad is that less weight and momentum help alot. How do our vehicles (or the mighty pajero) stack up on that?

PS: As for winches, seems sometimes not bhp but human-power works:
India Travel Forum, BCMTouring.com - View Single Post - The Dirty Dozen "SURVIVED" Ladakh or the overall thread: The Dirty Dozen "SURVIVED" Ladakh - India Travel Forum, BCMTouring.com !!
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Old 23rd July 2008, 17:51   #27
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DKG, I don't think anybody is claiming Gurkha to be incompetent
Okay so there's no discussion on that

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Considering Gurkha is the only off-roader with diff locks in India, do you mean to say none of the Jeep/Gypsy owners are serious off-roaders?
Samurai surely you must credit me with some intelligence to not stir a hornets nest here

I've heard the term "God" used here to describe Jeepers doing some serious offroading with open diff Jeeps/Gypsies and at best an LSD. You decide!

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Would the lighter weight of Gypsy not give it an edge versus the Gurkha?
Ofcourse it would have an edge. Its lightweight allows it to scoot up hill sides effortlessly where a Jeep or Gurkha may fret and fume a little. Where it loses out is on its open diffs and low end grunt. That's where the Jeeps have an edge over the Gypsy, and the Gurkha may have an edge when it comes to lockable diffs
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Old 23rd July 2008, 22:15   #28
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Ha Ha enjoyed the debate. Its time DKG buys his Gurkha and heads out with Samurai to coorg for some off roading .

The experience of off roading is the only true winner. Jeep, Force, Gypsy? who cares? I want to go off roading in coorg too :(.
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Old 24th July 2008, 09:27   #29
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...

The experience of off roading is the only true winner. Jeep, Force, Gypsy? who cares? ...(.
100% true.. at least for me. FULL STOP.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 11:10   #30
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Nice thread, DKG & samurai, you kept me entertained. cheers
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