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Old 9th September 2009, 12:31   #76
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Default Awsome fun you guys had!

Awsome video guys!! This is the true adventure. I love to go on such trail. I dont know who was talking but it goes this way- "if anybody says NDMS is good iam going to blow off his head"!! Way to go guys!!

So khan which tyres are the best in slush according to you, MRF Zapper or NDMS?

Will join you guys on this trail next year..inshaah allah!!

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 9th September 2009 at 12:39.
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Old 9th September 2009, 12:33   #77
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Shahnawaz the NDMS tyres work brilliantly in terrain where they need to grip hard soil. So they cut through loose soil and grip the harder surface underneath.

Perhaps in this kind of soft soil/slush/clay like terrain the issue was of needing flotation whereby the tyres don't sink in but stay afloat on the surface? Would you say that the depth of the soft soil was such that the NDMS were digging in and getting stuck? If so then they were just doing the job they were designed for
Here on day 1, at this terrain, the soil was hard, wet & slippery. It was not soft/clay/slush. IIRC, while walking on this terrain, our shoes were NOT digging in the ground but just slipping and folks who had good soles in their shoes were getting good traction while walking.

At this terrain, the NDMS just were spinning away to glory. the terrain had ruts/bumps and the NDMS tyres just couldn't get over the ruts/bumps and were spinning.

PS: I have personally never used NDMS and all my feedback is based on observations I had -- so I may be off the mark on the reasons on why they did not perform and where they will perform.


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... I dont know who was talking but it goes this way- "if anybody says NDMS is good iam going to blow off his head"!! Way to go guys!!
That was sreeraj. the jeep owner which had the NDMS tyres. He was REALLY pissed off by the NDMS tyres

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So khan which tyres are the best in slush according to you, MRF Zapper or NDMS?
I have no idea.!!! All I am trying to find out is why NDMS are rated so highly for slush/mud? I have not seen them perform to the degree that they are hyped at.!! Infact we had long conversations about this aspect during the OTR and people who have actually used NDMS on their jeeps mentioned that they are NO good.

Last edited by khan_sultan : 9th September 2009 at 12:38.
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Old 9th September 2009, 12:38   #78
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Namaskara , I sure missed a lot of action on this thread, will make up for that. sorry abt not uploading the pics as yet. will do it ASAP. viji's cam is with me , it has 2-3 videos.

IT WAS ONE SUPERB OTR!
The rain,the slush,the places,the terrain, the greenery in all its glory, the gracious hospitality of mr and mrs chandan and of course mr vikram gowda, everything made it special.

@mjothi- as usual you are doin a super job of reporting.
@star aqua- getting the jeep stuck WAS THE PLAN! , LOL
@swastikviji - next OTR I AM DRIVING YOUR JEEP AGAIN, need to definitely silence all jeepers who think gypsyers cant drive jeeps.
@khan- you are having it too easy all the time with that "spidey" thingy.
@shreeraj - i was thinking abt that conversation you,khan,mjoti and i were having about how we guys are such an "unserious" bunch and we are playing the fool all the time.

It was nice meeting shakir and star aqua's friend vishnu and sharath.

Also, i would like to add one more detail that mjothi has very conviniently missed , all those aches and pains that he was talking abt was not because of the OTR, it was coz he kept slipping and falling on his backside atleast 3-4 times, sadly none of that has been captured on camera.
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Old 9th September 2009, 12:43   #79
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Oh Dear.. you guys had a blast.
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Old 9th September 2009, 12:49   #80
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It may be worth our while to test different tyres on these OTR's. Quite obviously different terrains pose different challenges and there's never a one size fits all solution. Perhaps with rain that trail has a clay like surface rendering the NDMS ineffective. In coarse sand wet or dry they grip great.
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Old 9th September 2009, 12:56   #81
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is this the somwarpeth trail??
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Old 9th September 2009, 13:02   #82
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+1 to Khan NDMS tyre is not good for slush, it's just old school of thought.
Past two months I have attended three OTR in rain, one was extreme offorading what i have analyze with live experience- Star-aqua had NDMS and Chandan had Geo ATS both are pro offroaders at one obstacle chandan just went smoothly but Vijay got stuck and had to winched out below is the Pic of the terrain and almost all NDMS Jeepers had difficulty in climbing.

The Monsoon OTR - Hill climbings, stream crossing in rain with lots of pain...-s44.jpg
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Old 9th September 2009, 13:14   #83
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Originally Posted by Sha View Post
+1 to Khan NDMS tyre is not good for slush, it's just old school of thought.
Past two months I have attended three OTR in rain, one was extreme offorading what i have analyze with live experience- Star-aqua had NDMS and Chandan had Geo ATS both are pro offroaders at one obstacle chandan just went smoothly but Vijay got stuck and had to winched out below is the Pic of the terrain and almost all NDMS Jeepers had difficulty in climbing.

Attachment 187613
OMG! No.. I agree Chandan did cleared it but not Smoothly.

And did you guys notice SreeRaj's jeep and Sharat's jeep at the last hill climb?? SreeRaj could able to make atleast twice the distance what sharat could able to make with the same Geo ATS.

And now tell us why the Geo ATS couldn't take CJ340 smoothly which is lighter then MM550??

And one reason for NDMS to fail is tread as it had only 30% left and the other reason is the tyre pressure.

Nobody is thinking about the tread wear on the NDMS. All most all Geos are new and has more than 90% of the tread on it. Let me see how Geos will fair after 50% tread wear. and then lets compare NDMS and Geos.

Last edited by star_aqua : 9th September 2009 at 13:23.
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Old 9th September 2009, 13:34   #84
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Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
And did you guys notice SreeRaj's jeep and Sharat's jeep at the last hill climb?? SreeRaj could able to make atleast twice the distance what sharat could able to make with the same Geo ATS.

And now tell us why the Geo ATS couldn't take CJ340 smoothly which is lighter then MM550??
Wrong example I must say. Sreeraj cleared it more because of superior momentum than superior traction.

MM550 XDB advantage over CJ340 on that hill climb
  1. Heavier weight helps get better traction.
  2. More powerful engine
  3. MM550 could approach the last part much faster than CJ340 because MM550 would bounce lot lesser than CJ340 during the approach. The reason why I couldn't never gain enough speed in any gear was because of the bouncing over uneven surface.
  4. Finally he was able to quickly switch gears at the last part thanks to BA10.

That last hill section didn't have enough traction even for Mud tyres on the spider. Even the spider Gypsy had to use momentum rather than traction, you drove that part, so you know it.

But consider the climb just before that last climb. I climbed than in 2nd low in a single attempt by crawling. While sreeraj and Viji needed multiple attempts. Sreeraj finally climbed it using momentum and I don't remember how Viji did it.
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Old 9th September 2009, 13:43   #85
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Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
OMG! No.. I agree Chandan did cleared it but not Smoothly.

And now tell us why the Geo ATS couldn't take CJ340 smoothly which is lighter then MM550??

Nobody is thinking about the tread wear on the NDMS. All most all Geos are new and has more than 90% of the tread on it. Let me see how Geos will fair after 50% tread wear. and then lets compare NDMS and Geos.
I have photo evidence to prove Chandan climbed it smoothly with time also.
My Geo's has already done 27K so it's not new boss.
other hill climb part Samurai has explained correctly, last hill part was shear on momentum not on tyres.
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Old 9th September 2009, 13:44   #86
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Thumbs up Ndms

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Originally Posted by khan_sultan View Post
I must say that the NDMS tyres are pretty useless. While I used to think that they are good but recent observations have showed that they are useless - everywhere. Sreeraj, on day2, was going down diagonally on slopes just because of no grip by the NDMS tyres. ?

@Khan_sultan the MM540 is a heavier car and 6-16 NDMS is not the best choice to wear. 7-16 NDMS would have helped,..but still these are not the tyres for this jeep. Thats why even the army uses MRF sandgrips and Apollo bullets on the 550.

The NDMS however is the undisputed king of all terrain when worn by a CJ3B petrol jeep. The jeep has to be light and the engine needs to have the power/torque needed (both low and high).

The NDMS may even fail with a CL340 due to the heavier engine, and resulting overall GVW of the vehicle.
Hence is the vehicle dimension and vehicle weight which killed it. NOT the tyres.

This fact is proven time and again in OTRs up here. 540s and Cl340's (2.1 and Inter) are better off with ATS, or MT tyres.
Choose NDMS only if you have a petrol cj3b jeep, for all else stick to a more modern tread pattern.

Jeepers hold the NDMS in high regard as its proven its worth in gold,...some of you are seasoned off-roaders and general statements from you might be mis-read by newbies.

Last edited by Torque-ative : 9th September 2009 at 14:04. Reason: added info.
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Old 9th September 2009, 13:48   #87
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Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
And one reason for NDMS to fail is tread as it had only 30% left and the other reason is the tyre pressure.
Really? Do u think my threads are so bad? have a look at this picture.

The Monsoon OTR - Hill climbings, stream crossing in rain with lots of pain...-dsc00133.jpg

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Wrong example I must say. Sreeraj cleared it more because of superior momentum than superior traction.

MM550 XDB advantage over CJ340 on that hill climb
  1. Heavier weight helps get better traction.
  2. More powerful engine
  3. MM550 could approach the last part much faster than CJ340 because MM550 would bounce lot lesser than CJ340 during the approach. The reason why I couldn't never gain enough speed in any gear was because of the bouncing over uneven surface.
  4. Finally he was able to quickly switch gears at the last part thanks to BA10.
That last hill section didn't have enough traction even for Mud tyres on the spider. Even the spider Gypsy had to use momentum rather than traction, you drove that part, so you know it.

But consider the climb just before that last climb. I climbed than in 2nd low in a single attempt by crawling. While sreeraj and Viji needed multiple attempts. Sreeraj finally climbed it using momentum and I don't remember how Viji did it.
+1 to that.

--Sree--

Last edited by sreerajunnithan : 9th September 2009 at 13:49.
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Old 9th September 2009, 13:51   #88
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Originally Posted by Torque-ative View Post
@Khan_sultan the MM540 is a heavier car and 6-16 NDMS is not the best choice to wear. 7-16 NDMS would have helped,..but still these are not the tyres for this jeep. Thats why even the army uses MRF sandgrips and Apollo bullets on the 550.

The NDMS however is the undisputed king of all terrain when worn by a CJ3B petrol jeep. The jeep has to be light and the engine needs to have the power/torque needed (both low and high).

The NDMS may even fail with a CL340 due to the heavier engine, and resulting overall GVW of the vehicle.
Hence is the vehicle dimension and vehicle weight which killed it. NOT the tyres.
This make sense.

--Sree--
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Old 9th September 2009, 14:00   #89
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Wow fantastic pictures guys.. wish i had a 4 wheel drive ..

Great Great .. more pics !
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Old 9th September 2009, 14:15   #90
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I have my doubts about a heavier car having any advantages offroad as compared to a lighter vehicle. Traction should benefit on account of tyre tread design and not vehicle weight. A heavier car will need a more powerful engine (usually implying a heavier engine on account of higher displacement) - doesn't add up.

Given the weight of a vehicle one needs to purely focus on tyre choice to optimise its performance offroad. The 600x16 seems perfect for cars the size of the CJ3B. Anything larger should wear atleast 700's if not 750

Its fair to say that most of us who were not there cannot guage the terrain from pictures and comment about why the NDMS didn't work. So far on trails in forests my CJ3B with 600x16 NDMS works brilliantly. BTW they are brand new MRF's

Its up to guys who have driven there to help us understand what possibly didn't work for the NDMS shod vehicles.

You may wish to consider that offroad you need tyres with soft rubber that can grip easily. Old tyres tend to get hard, and worn tyres in any case are useless regardless of what type they are.

Except for black clay my CJ3B so far hasn't struggled with the NDMS. Once stuck I was still able to retrace and take a different line
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