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Old 18th August 2010, 09:09   #61
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Originally Posted by xtreme power View Post
as i see the sheets i totally think we deserved second place and vijay reddys team third overall.
I FULLY agree. That's the most fair result for the team awards.
In addition to that, Sireesh should get the 3rd most performing 4WD award (and not Manzoor from Red 2)

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does anybody remember what major roy said during giving the award for the most spirited team to red2 ?
"Most Spirited team... coming this year again... coming far off from kerala" hence the award to them
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Old 18th August 2010, 09:31   #62
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....KS, there is no point re-kindling the issue. Lets find a solution.
As a participant I have EVERY RIGHT to question it. This was not a fun event but the so called "indias toughest competition"

Please, do note that, till asked, the O-Team did not divulge this information in their 'formal report'. They just mentioned that there was some error.!!!!!

My take on the solution:

Team Awards:
- 1st: Dr Jones & Team
- 2nd: Allan & Team
- 3rd: Vijay Reddy & Team

If the O-Team thinks that 2 teams did not complete 3 SS's on day 1 and were at a disadvantage because of goofup by the O-team, then let the O-Team apologize to these 2 teams and take it with them separately. I can't understand WHY are some people from the O-Team penalizing 9 teams in favor of these 2 Teams??

We as fellow participants can just say to these 2 teams "sorry mates, bad luck because the marshals screwed your chances. better luck next time".

Apart from the above, I ask the O-Team to make public:
  • Scanned copies of ALL the score sheets for ALL teams that were filled on each SS
For subjective awards (technical team, spirited team, best new comers..):
  • What was the criteria for each
  • How was the criteria applied for each team
  • How many Marshals were involved for determining each award
  • Which marshal voted for whom & why
Reason I ask this is because it seems like just 1 or 2 people have decided these subjective awards..!!!!

A marshall would have seen a team/person at best twice over 2 days. We fellow participants got to see teams/person many times over. So would like to see what the marshals saw that we could not

Last edited by khan_sultan : 18th August 2010 at 09:38.
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Old 18th August 2010, 11:20   #63
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Originally Posted by khan_sultan View Post
As a participant I have EVERY RIGHT to question it. This was not a fun event but the so called "indias toughest competition"

Please, do note that, till asked, the O-Team did not divulge this information in their 'formal report'. They just mentioned that there was some error.!!!!!

My take on the solution:

Team Awards:
- 1st: Dr Jones & Team
- 2nd: Allan & Team
- 3rd: Vijay Reddy & Team

If the O-Team thinks that 2 teams did not complete 3 SS's on day 1 and were at a disadvantage because of goofup by the O-team, then let the O-Team apologize to these 2 teams and take it with them separately. I can't understand WHY are some people from the O-Team penalizing 9 teams in favor of these 2 Teams??

We as fellow participants can just say to these 2 teams "sorry mates, bad luck because the marshals screwed your chances. better luck next time".

Apart from the above, I ask the O-Team to make public:
  • Scanned copies of ALL the score sheets for ALL teams that were filled on each SS
For subjective awards (technical team, spirited team, best new comers..):
  • What was the criteria for each
  • How was the criteria applied for each team
  • How many Marshals were involved for determining each award
  • Which marshal voted for whom & why
Reason I ask this is because it seems like just 1 or 2 people have decided these subjective awards..!!!!

A marshall would have seen a team/person at best twice over 2 days. We fellow participants got to see teams/person many times over. So would like to see what the marshals saw that we could not
Hi Shahnawaz,

Since you are exercising your rights it is my duty to inform you of the following.

The Team Standings have changed not because of the deletion of 3 SS on Day#1, even at that point the Day#1 SS1/2/3 were not added, but because there was a calculation, mistake on Saturday night before the prize ceremony.

As Organizers we have every right to CANCEL any Special Stage for all the teams competing.

The Day#1 SS1/SS2/SS3 were cancelled because 2 Red Teams were stopped at SS4 where and 3 Blue Teams were allowed to proceed from SS6-SS10. To compensate for this mistake, it was decided to to annul the scores of SS1/2/3 on Day#1.

The Criteria For Individual Special Stages is a Timed run for all interested over 5 Obstacles, we have had this event in TPC2008 & TPC2009, this year, due to delays and breakdowns this criteria was not met and the O-Team decided to convert this to some deserving drivers who were consistent on both days and they won on a vote.

Individual Special Stages (Voted by 11 O-Team members)
1) Sunil B Shetty - He drove alone all the way from Mumbai, competed in all the Special Stages, despite 2 of his Team Mates dropping out, and was always cheerful and very helpful to those who needed his expertise.

2) PrabhuAV - Was the official MANIAC on the MM540, he drove it, broke it fixed it all by himself, and drove it again, truely unstoppable.

3) Jose - From Kerala was driving a Bolero Invader with a 3.73 Axle Ratio, that vehicle just cannot move on the sand until 4Lo is engaged, yet, and despite an initial breakdown he managed to complete the event quite cheerfully.

Most Performing 4WD
1) Mhd Ali (CJ3B)
2) Prithviraj (MG413W)
3) Sireesh (MM540)
4) Manzoor.

This change was not reflected in the official report, after the scores were re-calculated, it is again my mistake.

Technical Events- (Voted by 11 O-Team members)
i) Vehicle Recovery without winch
ii) Tyre Changing without Jack.
iii) First Aid & Technical Quiz.

The above criteria was not met because of time constraints and the criteria was changed to Team which did recoveries themselves and were able to fix vehicles without outside help.

There were Two contenders for this
1) Swastik Viji's Team
2) Vijay's Reddy's Team.

Vijay Reddy's Team won because they recovered a vehicle which had stalled in water and winched it out in stages (Perfect Recovery), cleaned the air-filter, removed the injectors/glow plugs, cleaned the engine and were back in the game.

The Cancellation of Day#1 SS1/2/3 should have been followed by an announcement, on Day#1 Evening or Start of Day#2 evening, but it was a mistake on part of the O-Team that we could not get the Scores of Day#1 Tabulated, hence skipped the whole thing on the start of Day#2.

We have 198 Score Cards (18X11) all filled in and signed by the Competitors, if anyone wishes to see the score cards we can send him a photocopy. Please PM e for details

Regards,

Arka
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Old 18th August 2010, 11:29   #64
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Kudos for the organisers and the participants.

Lets us get some more pics and description from inside the cabin about the satages and how it went.

Offtopic:


In rallying regs we have something knows as "scratch time" In case a stage is cancelled half way (or for some teams only) due to some accident or such. In such a case instead of just cancelling the stage the scratch time is awarded to the teams who could not do the stage due to officially being stopped. The scratch time (or penalties) is based on criterion of slowest time out of all teams, average time of the stage and comparative performance of team in other stages.

This way we try to give fair representation to teams who were stopped and team who bled their hearts out in bid to finish fast. Not the best method but some thing like this could be thought up for the next event.
Hi Sudev,

Your suggestion is very sound, in TPC we keep The Run time and Timing for the Special Stages as a tie-breaker, in case there is a tie in points for obstacle completion.

We had 2 options.
i) Award Max scores across the board, that way there would be a lot of surprise contenders the next day.

ii) Cancel the SS and not tally the points of all the teams.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 18th August 2010, 11:43   #65
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... The Team Standings have changed not because of the deletion of 3 SS on Day#1, even at that point the Day#1 SS1/2/3 were not added
Boss, the changes are there for everyone to see. Just see the excel that Jaggu has shared in previous pages. That Indo Srilankan team should be placed 8th and not 2nd. Anyway, you would better know what's the reason you are favoring them.

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.. As Organizers we have every right to CANCEL any Special Stage for all the teams competing.
. Great..!!! So, this makes it VERY clear that you penalized 9 teams to favor those 2 teams.

Quote:
The Day#1 SS1/SS2/SS3 were cancelled because 2 Red Teams were stopped at SS4 where and 3 Blue Teams were allowed to proceed from SS6-SS10.
Whose fault is it?? the 9 teams who completed all the SS's on time???


Quote:
...

To compensate for this mistake, it was decided to to annul the scores of SS1/2/3 on Day#1.

but because there was a calculation, mistake on Saturday nightbefore the prize ceremony.

This change was not reflected in the official report, after the scores were re-calculated,it is again my mistake.

The Cancellation of Day#1 SS1/2/3 should have been followed by an announcement, on Day#1 Evening or Start of Day#2 evening, but it was a mistake on part of the O-Team that we could not get the Scores of Day#1 Tabulated, .....
I think you have said it all in above quoted part. I just hope the next years TPC is not FULL of mistakes. People come from far off locations and expect a FAIR event and not post event formation of rules which conveniently favor certain teams.
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Old 18th August 2010, 12:02   #66
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That Indo Srilankan team should be placed 8th and not 2nd. Anyway, you would better know what's the reason you are favoring them.

Khan saab, please come to Taprobana Challenge in Srilanka during October 15 to 23. Then, you may decide if we need to be placed 8th or 28th...

Last edited by khan_sultan : 18th August 2010 at 12:21. Reason: fixed quotes
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Old 18th August 2010, 12:11   #67
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Originally Posted by khan_sultan View Post
Boss, the changes are there for everyone to see. Just see the excel that Jaggu has shared in previous pages. That Indo Srilankan team should be placed 8th and not 2nd. Anyway, you would better know what's the reason you are favoring them.

. Great..!!! So, this makes it VERY clear that you penalized 9 teams to favor those 2 teams.

Whose fault is it?? the 9 teams who completed all the SS's on time???

I think you have said it all in above quoted part. I just hope the next years TPC is not FULL of mistakes. People come from far off locations and expect a FAIR event and not post event formation of rules which conveniently favor certain teams.
Hi Shahnawaz,

Only 3 Teams completed their SS & Run on Time. (Before 1700hrs)

Blue 2/3/4/5 were competing in SS6-10 after 1700hrs, but they were not stopped.

If they were stopped at SS6/7/8/9/10 then there would be no question about cancelling SS1/2/3.

Since the blue2/3/4/5 were still running, while Red2 & Red4 were stopped, we had to compensate them.

That is why we decided to cancel the scores of SS1/SS2/SS3.

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by ex670c : 18th August 2010 at 12:18.
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Old 18th August 2010, 12:21   #68
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What happened to the 5 hour run time etc etc..stuff that was told at the briefing time?? So that was all hog-wash...!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubiker View Post
Khan saab, please come to Taprobana Challenge in Srilanka during October 15 to 23. Then, you may decide if we need to be placed 8th or 28th...
Boss, what has tarpobanana challange or whatever has got to do with TPC??

Nothing against you folks but i am talking based on what has happened in TPC and how certain aspects have been handled. I hope you get the point.

Last edited by khan_sultan : 18th August 2010 at 12:24.
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Old 18th August 2010, 12:31   #69
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why have so many rules arka, when u cant inforce them,
then u have to compensate, using the word MISTAKE, a million times in your posts.
Major roy gave us a strict briefing related to timings for the entire day
red 2 started late buddy, cause of a breakdown in the beginning of the day and it is playing to their advantage
if that was the case, prithvi and khan could have halted and waited till their third car was repared and brought back and then only continued, and let me tell you they would have then won the competition fare and square
your indo srilankan team stopped midway to attend a breakdown and my group and red 6 overtook them and finished the day.
we were following rules layed by your very own roy
thoses two teams never completed the day cause of their breakdowns and should be penalised for it. PERIOD
TEAM RED 4 DESERVES 8 POSITION AND NOT 2
and mind you theres a lot of diffrence between 2 and 8
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Old 18th August 2010, 12:31   #70
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Hi Shahnawaz,

Only 3 Teams completed their SS & Run on Time. (Before 1700hrs)
So, so be it..!!!! let only these 3 teams be in the competition.


Quote:
....Since the blue2/3/4/5 were still running, while Red2 & Red4 were stopped, we had to compensate them.

That is why we decided to cancel the scores of SS1/SS2/SS3.
Arka, that compensation happened at the cost of other teams -- for no fault of theirs..!!!!!

Even if you had to compensate them, you could have given them a special prize or whatever.

Last edited by khan_sultan : 18th August 2010 at 12:34.
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Old 18th August 2010, 12:37   #71
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Hi Shahnawaz,

Only 3 Teams completed their SS & Run on Time. (Before 1700hrs)

Blue 2/3/4/5 were competing in SS6-10 after 1700hrs, but they were not stopped.

If they were stopped at SS6/7/8/9/10 then there would be no question about cancelling SS1/2/3.

Since the blue2/3/4/5 were still running, while Red2 & Red4 were stopped, we had to compensate them.

That is why we decided to cancel the scores of SS1/SS2/SS3.

Regards,

Arka
then arka, please advantage should be given to those who finished on time
specially since we were briefed about this by roy himself
we went all out to finish it on time, put out vehicles at risk and also as per the rules we did what was needed
we should be at an advantage and not those who went against the rules,
picture this
twenty school children
they have to pass class 2nd to enter 3rd grade
but only 6 pass and 14 fail
so you decide that majority wins and pass all to the 3rd grade
thats what youve done at tpc and might i add a major flaw
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Old 18th August 2010, 12:44   #72
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So, so be it..!!!! let only these 3 teams be in the competition.

.
exactly my point
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Old 18th August 2010, 12:44   #73
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...
we went all out to finish it on time, put out vehicles at risk ...
IMHO, not only did these 2 teams get an unfair advantage but see this way also, that they didn't get to push their vehicle for 3 full stages. So they preserved their vehcile also. And we all know how much difference it makes if we bypass 3 full SS's

Quote:
...
thats what youve done at tpc and might i add a major flaw
Completely agree with you buddy. IMHO & eyes, your team is 2nd, Vijay Reddy's team is 3rd. That indo-lankan team is 8th. fair & square..
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Old 18th August 2010, 12:46   #74
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So, so be it..!!!! let only these 3 teams be in the competition.

Arka, that compensation happened at the cost of other teams -- for no fault of theirs..!!!!!

Even if you had to compensate them, you could have given them a special prize or whatever.
Hi Shahnawaz,

What you suggested could have been executed only if all the Teams were stopped at 1700hrs.

Since only 2 Team were stopped and the Blue were allowed to continue, we had to do what we did.

It was absolute our mistake on many accounts and brunt has been felt by Allan's Team.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 18th August 2010, 12:50   #75
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Almost 5 pages over and still waiting for the reports, can we have some reports please? I suggest these discussions be carried to the other thread:- http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ex...ml#post2032095

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