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Old 17th January 2011, 15:29   #16
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Default Re: Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th

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Originally Posted by gsferrari View Post
Do you think SPOA might have contributed to this tip-over because of the higher CG?A video would have shed some light on how this happened.
You stole my words, give em back to me

Khan bhai care to explain, will help rookies like me to be better prepared ;p

Last edited by The Wolf : 17th January 2011 at 15:30.
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Old 17th January 2011, 16:41   #17
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Default Re: Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th

Guys, I'm just glad that you guys (especially Khan who was in the vehicle) are safe. Be careful, will ya!
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Old 17th January 2011, 16:48   #18
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Default Re: Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsferrari View Post
Do you think SPOA might have contributed to this tip-over because of the higher CG?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
You stole my words, give em back to me
My take Yes and No lol

Yes: coz of obvious reason, mass sitting higher means higher center of gravity = higher chances of topple.

No: coz of my limited understanding of the science This is what i have gathered:
  • Spidey is taller by 6-8 inch??
  • On the other hand track width has been increased by 4 inch at the least. Thanks to 2 inch spacers on each wheel??
  • Hard top adds minimal weight to the top, since its very light sheet and remaining whatever little is added to the bottom
  • Compared to stock Gypsy weight, spidey's should be lesser, thanks to stripping and chopping off the tail

Though we see Spidey lifting legs, i feel it is more to do with better articulation that it can really push the envelope really high compared to a stock Gypsy. Sitting inside you don't feel the lifts are that bad/ Maybe we are used to it, maybe coz overall roll is under control.

So me feels, though it might be contributing, it is minimal. What happened yesterday could happen to any vehicle. Including for a light weight SWB and narrow track like CJ3B, which also has a very good tendency to lift its legs (i know it coz i have felt the lifts quite often).

Disclaimer: The ^^^ is based on my very basic understanding of CG and observation and experience with Spidey over the last 2 years or so. Am not an expert nor an engineer to give very detailed explanation.

Last edited by Jaggu : 17th January 2011 at 16:50.
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Old 17th January 2011, 17:09   #19
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Default Re: Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsferrari View Post
Do you think SPOA might have contributed to this tip-over because of the higher CG? ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
You stole my words, give em back to me
Honestly, I don't know. However, I can say the following for sure:

The overall track-width, that is 4" more than stock (it is now ~55"+), makes a hell lot of difference. Previously, with the SPoA, it used to feel scary but not now. NOT AT ALL -- while you are in the vehicle.

See the picture below. The Gypsy was at the point marked in black arrow with both right side wheels in the rut and had to virtually turn 90 degree left to come out of that rut. And, it seems, that the front 2 wheels were not locked at that time -- for whatever reasons. But yes, after toppling, the front 2 wheels became locked for sure

You can extrapolate from this picture: Me trying to power out and turn left.

My trying to power out was a mistake in hindsight.

Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th-avalaconda19sep1020.jpg

Lucky that we got away with virtually no damage. It can easily go wrong in unimaginable ways.
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Old 17th January 2011, 17:23   #20
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Default Re: Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th

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Originally Posted by khan_sultan View Post
The overall track-width, that is 4" more than stock (it is now ~55"+), makes a hell lot of difference. Previously, with the SPoA, it used to feel scary but not now. NOT AT ALL -- while you are in the vehicle.
Help me understand, how exactly does a better track help when one side or diagonal side wheels are in the air??!!! Secondly, is it true that the SPOA setup causes the top half (upwards from the leaf pack joint) to flex more, sideways, than the conventional setup??

Quote:
Originally Posted by khan_sultan View Post
And, it seems, that the front 2 wheels were not locked at that time -- for whatever reasons. But yes, after toppling, the front 2 wheels became locked for sure
Yeh kaise hua sirji???!! Having problems with your FWH or slipping drive shafts?? BTW I seem to have one since yesterday, the dial on the left FWH is stuck!!! Help me on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khan_sultan View Post
You can extrapolate from this picture: Me trying to power out and turn left.

My trying to power out was a mistake in hindsight.
This could be the true precursor in my mind...


Quote:
Originally Posted by khan_sultan View Post
Lucky that we got away with virtually no damage. It can easily go wrong in unimaginable ways.
Gods will! Glad none was hurt, wouldnt care abt the vehicle in this situation honestly.

p.s: Having said the above, the spot indeed looks tricky and in my guess it would get progressively worse with each vehicle passing by, whats your take bhai?

Last edited by The Wolf : 17th January 2011 at 17:28.
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Old 17th January 2011, 17:50   #21
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Default Re: Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th

Khan, Jaggu, Star,
Just for general knowledge, IF, the front and rear left wheels would be placed in the first rut and the second rut (black arrow) as you proceeded further turning left like the situation demanded, would this have happened?
Regards,
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Old 17th January 2011, 18:30   #22
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Default Re: Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
  • Spidey is taller by 6-8 inch??
  • On the other hand track width has been increased by 4 inch at the least. Thanks to 2 inch spacers on each wheel??
  • Hard top adds minimal weight to the top, since its very light sheet and remaining whatever little is added to the bottom
  • Compared to stock Gypsy weight, spidey's should be lesser, thanks to stripping and chopping off the tail
Glad all you guys are safe - KS what spacers are you running and why spacers?

Whats the weight of your vehicle now - have you weighed it?

Be safe guys
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Old 17th January 2011, 19:03   #23
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Default Re: Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th

Quote:
Originally Posted by fazalaliadil View Post
Khan, Jaggu, Star,
Just for general knowledge, IF, the front and rear left wheels would be placed in the first rut and the second rut (black arrow) as you proceeded further turning left like the situation demanded, would this have happened?
Regards,
Fazal saab, actually this would have never happened if the FWHs functioned as expected. though it was in locked position, the axles were not engaged inside. this is the root cause and the crawler gear box with high traction tires was just trying to lift the front as it was in 2wd. the front left wheel went up on a ramp causing more lift. but at one point it attained equilibrium and in fact stayed in that position for few seconds that's when we all three confirmed that its gonna topple. but none of us were panic or it just lasted for few seconds.
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Old 17th January 2011, 19:10   #24
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Default Re: Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th

Quote:
Originally Posted by fazalaliadil View Post
Khan, Jaggu, Star,
Just for general knowledge, IF, the front and rear left wheels would be placed in the first rut and the second rut (black arrow) as you proceeded further turning left like the situation demanded, would this have happened?
Regards,
Disclaimer: Picture does not do justice to the terrain. I will try to narrate it a bit to give some idea.

It is a steep climb, if you look at the picture posted by star it will give you an idea. Place where spidey got stuck is where it flattens out before the next left hand climb starts. Rain water has eroded the whole climb and the track is narrow. Every time this erosion is increasing, leaving behind a thin track on either side. I remember we have filled up the rut quite a bit in previous outings, so that vehicles will cross somehow.

Wheel placement and following the spotter is very important here no two ways about it!, which i managed to do and almost get it across. Due to various factors mentioned above/ and in previous posts, maybe even due to a suspected FWH, rear slipped out.

Usually the front wheel will move through the rut where as the rear axles are on top of the mount, which helps to power out. This time the rear slipped from the mount when i tried to gas and vehicle lodged itself inside the rut on RT side. With the bigger tyres rut was a perfect fit, like a glove. No way steering was moving. The mount in between and slipping tyres behind meant vehicle was not moving anywhere.

Why i feel FWH were not engaging/completely engaging, since they should induce some spin in the front and would have prevented the rear from powering too much and slipping off. This was not happening. If you look at the pics closely tyres dont show any sign of slip.

Now coming back to your question of taking the placing the wheels in LT rut and turning RT.

Theoretically taking the rule of turning towards the drop, it should get it across. But in reality you cant, coz there is no place on the right side! Also the mount and the bush will not allow any movement to RT. Again am not sure even with reversing we can get such an angle to enter that RT side.

I feel only way we could have avoided was to wait for back up, hook a line and then slowly try to reverse out with external help and attempt again OR to winch out. At that moment we were more worried about bothering the rest of the team who had moved out and thought we could power it out.

Yes! spotters (me and star) are also to be blamed!!! coz we took it very casual. I somehow have it in back of my mind that if we were closer and alert we could have put the counter effort and atleast held spidey in place. Have done it so many times with many vehicles.

I would like to consider it as a good learning which will help us avoid such situations in future.

EDIT: I deleted the torque lift after seeing staraqua's post. He has a better engineering mind lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
what spacers are you running and why spacers?

Whats the weight of your vehicle now - have you weighed it?
Its an imported all aluminum, including the studs 2 inch wide. Spacers to increase track width as explained by Khan above. And as far as i know Spidey has an aversion to weighing scales like my wifee

Last edited by Jaggu : 17th January 2011 at 19:13.
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Old 17th January 2011, 19:47   #25
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Default Re: Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th

Amazing.

This recce is more of an actual OTR.

Nice to see Spidey and Khan healthy

Jaggu writing so much is a rarity and a nice write-up. i was almost there at that spot reading on

Have fun guys.
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Old 17th January 2011, 19:55   #26
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Default Re: Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th

Quote:
Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
actually this would have never happened if the FWHs functioned as expected. though it was in locked position, the axles were not engaged inside.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
I would like to consider it as a good learning which will help us avoid such situations in future.
Star and Jaggu,
That is very well explained.

Yes, I understand the FWH's did not engage. Why did not the axles engage in spite of locking them?

Now, as I too am tryig to learn through your experience...only with the rear wheels powering the forward movement, suppose if there was space on the right to keep the left wheels in the rut, would the Spidey have gone through without toppling?
Thanks,

Last edited by fazalaliadil : 17th January 2011 at 20:03.
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Old 17th January 2011, 19:56   #27
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Default Re: Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th

Quote:
Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
Fazal saab, actually this would have never happened if the FWHs functioned as expected. though it was in locked position, the axles were not engaged inside. this is the root cause and the crawler gear box with high traction tires was just trying to lift the front as it was in 2wd. the front left wheel went up on a ramp causing more lift. but at one point it attained equilibrium and in fact stayed in that position for few seconds that's when we all three confirmed that its gonna topple. but none of us were panic or it just lasted for few seconds.
Since the FWH is a positive locking mechanism the only reason for the front not getting power is ;
1. Differential side gear teeth are stripped
2. FWH splines locking teeth are stripped or
3. Axle wrap on front axle due to SPOA and lack of traction bar.

Last edited by The Wolf : 17th January 2011 at 20:05.
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Old 17th January 2011, 20:02   #28
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Default All is Well, that Ends Well

Hi Shahnawaz & Jaggu,

Good to see you both safe, and nice to know Spidey has not been damaged.

Please consider a front Traction Bar.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 17th January 2011, 21:21   #29
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Default Re: Bangalore Annual OTR Jan' 2011

Hi all,

As ticklers, here are some photos of offroading recce we did yesterday.
Attached Thumbnails
Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th-20110116_111847_929.jpg  

Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th-20110116_111910_864.jpg  

Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th-20110116_111917_427.jpg  

Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th-20110116_111922_93.jpg  

Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th-20110116_111931_469.jpg  

Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th-20110116_111947_226.jpg  

Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th-20110116_111952_137.jpg  

Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th-20110116_111955_792.jpg  

Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th-20110116_112054_823.jpg  

Aavalaconda Annual OTR Recce report Jan 17th-20110116_113246_653.jpg  

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Old 17th January 2011, 21:34   #30
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Default Re: All is Well, that Ends Well

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
This recce is more of an actual OTR.
Thank you Pavan.

Its much more rather, coz we have to virtually create a track from nothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by fazalaliadil View Post
Star and Jaggu,
That is very well explained.

Yes, I understand the FWH's did not engage. Why did not the axles engage in spite of locking them?

Now, as I too am tryig to learn through your experience...only with the rear wheels powering the forward movement, suppose if there was space on the right to keep the left wheels in the rut, would the Spidey have gone through without toppling?
Thanks,
We have to open and check what is really wrong, we had this doubt earlier also. It takes a while to fully engage, last time one of the axle shaft was bust. Thought that had taken care of the issue.

It might have made it, i really dont know. Saying since it climbed first quarter ie the steepest butchered part with just 2 wheels lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Shahnawaz & Jaggu,
=======
Please consider a front Traction Bar.

Regards,

Arka
Thanks Arka now Khan is in the exclusive club And dont give him ideas, he already has too many plans running inside his head.

EDIT: My ISP is still kaput at home story telling will have to wait. Right now rigged up the phone as modem and uploading picture ruled out.

Last edited by Jaggu : 17th January 2011 at 21:36.
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