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Old 7th March 2011, 15:27   #16
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

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Old 7th March 2011, 15:29   #17
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

Now you know why i penned the OTR code of conduct thread?

Since i wasn't there, i can't comment much except from what i have heard.

Anyways, next time protocol should be enforced!
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Old 7th March 2011, 15:44   #18
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post




This would cause seizure and not mix with oil? Talking from experience Unless there is a leak in the turbo lubrication or something. Oil contamination with water is from somewhere else.

Exhaust to Inlet is separate from oil and water line's in an engine.
The engine was not seized, it started and on idle would over heat.

Yes sir, but i am baffled with how the ghasket blew, but bygones are bygones. Time to move on with it and make improvments for the next time.



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My "guess" water went in through one of the breather, but i understand these engines have positive vent, so unless you stall water will not get in so easily. On the other hand, water in exhaust would have resulted in engine getting stalled, and then water would have gone in through the breather??
The Latter part is what happened. The exhaust took in the water and stalled the engine. The rear end of the exhaust is a complete disater, this needs to be altered or changed completly. In my case changed completly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
But one thing! i have been warning about these engines, water proofing them. We have seen scorpio's conking off without warning as soon as they touch water. Nobody gave proper reply to the questions put forward on this or water proofing of Thar. But i think for offroad use either company or the individual owner should address these issues to avoid pain. Right from the sensors, which can give off and stall the engine when wet.
Jaggu this was a trial run to know the car better and see what she needs to improve apun. I have many things that i want to do and water proofing was one of them, but due to Allans busy schedule right now, we have been unable to do things.

I would be opening up the engine and rectifying things myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Another scenario, the vehicle already had a blown head gasket and hence water from radiator got mixed with oil? Driver would have seen the coolant level low and would have topped up the radiator previous day?
No sir that was not the case, My drivers dont touch the car unless i ask them to bring it home or take it back to the garage, if we are going for an OTR. The car stands at the garage only and is not used. My mechs who look after my vintage and classic cars tend to the Thar. No car old or new leaves the garage without a oil,water,coolant check and a look below the radiator to check for any leaks. A habit formed over the years by the person who looks after the cars. He had taken the Thar on saturday to drop off my Vintage car tyres to the tyre shop. So if there was an issue he would know.

Jaggu there are no leaks in the Radiator and neither is it choked up, even now.


Gogi bhai, not confident or careless but the later part of your paragraph. "Maine kiya thar ke saath to tujhse bhi jayegi". Yes i agree it was a mistake on my part too, that i decided to go in even though i was unsure as i had neve gone this deep first and i did not know the vehicles behaviour as well. Leason learnt the hard way but no regrets bhai as i can improve apun the water proofing of the car, so as to be prepared for a situation like this in the future.

Last edited by speedy : 7th March 2011 at 15:58.
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Old 7th March 2011, 16:48   #19
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

I do not see any people in the lake. Did no one walk into the water crossings before taking their vehicles in. If not that a serious lapse.
That is something you have to do no matter what.
I have done this in freezing water in ladakh too before deciding whether or not to take the safari inside.
Yes, I got wet almost till my waist, but the alternative would have been much more scary, esp in those remote areas.
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Old 7th March 2011, 16:49   #20
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

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Originally Posted by speedy View Post
The engine was not seized, it started and on idle would over heat.
I think you have nailed the issue here itself, discuss with your mechs and maybe you will find the real issue. Do keep us updated on the engine work and hope the tab is minor.

For exhaust do a snorkel job after ensuring its leak proof at the joints. Same with intake. 3M has waterproofing silicone spray, this will help to water proof the sensors to an extent. ECU move it from the current position and try placing it at the highest point inside the dash, ensure you water proof it well with silicone paste. Connectors also.
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Old 7th March 2011, 16:58   #21
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I do not see any people in the lake. Did no one walk into the water crossings before taking their vehicles in. If not that a serious lapse.
That is something you have to do no matter what.
I have done this in freezing water in ladakh too before deciding whether or not to take the safari inside.
Yes, I got wet almost till my waist, but the alternative would have been much more scary, esp in those remote areas.
tsk - Prior to the shock and horror...

1. Kishor Chhabria crossed successfully without drama in his Jeep
2. Manan Patel crossed successfully
3. Amit crossed in his Gypsy with HT tires
4. Devang crossed in the Thar
5. Imran Saudagar crossed over in his Gypsy


Cheers!
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Old 7th March 2011, 17:03   #22
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

Root causes:

Gypsy:

Prop Shaft breaking/transfer case damage:
1> Caused by rocky terrain
2> Caused by not learning from 1 and going over same rocky terrain


Jeep:
Prop shaft breaking
1> Caused by excessive stress while towing on inclined terrain


Waterhole chaos/Flooded vehicles:

0> Basic lack of discipline

1> People insisting on taking vehicles through deeper path (inspite of being warned) because one or two vehicles had made it through

2> People still going into the deeper path though they can see vehicles being stranded/number of out of action vehicles increasing

3> People acting as the peanut gallery and egging people on (daal do synodrome)

4> Underprepared/4WD impaired vehicles still insisting on putting it through same stretch

5> Forgetting basic rules: Dont crank for a while in water/just after being towed from water

Good parts:

1> People pitching in to tow vehicles out multiple times

2> Having expertise to dismantle a gypsy transfer case

3> Having presence of mind to go scout for a different route to get vehicles out while the mayhem was taking place

4> Having enough food and water to see us through

5> Amazing ability of some people to be selfless and help no matter how much it was or how late it got


What can be done (Will we do it?)

1> Dont tow vehicles out when they get stuck if they dont listen

2> Exclude close friends who go nuts on an OTR

3> Wait 5/10/infinite more years for certain people to be responsible adults


If we cant do the above 3, I would just treat yesterday like a really bad day, learn from it and move on...

Last edited by genesis : 7th March 2011 at 17:14.
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Old 7th March 2011, 17:59   #23
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Exclamation Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

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Originally Posted by genesis View Post

@Friends & Mods: Please dont turn this into a Thar thread. This is the 4x4 excursions forum...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
How did the engine take in water in Thar??? it should be better off compared to our old jeeps.
I know this is not a Thar thread , but thinking on the Thar (failure ) happening

My logic :-

1) As per the owner says > water enters exhaust > reaches 'HOT' turbo > Damages the Turbo > contaminates the oil via turbo lubrication route .

2) Now after they re fill the oil the engine runs on damaged/ partially blocked exhaust system>> thus over heats >> blows gasket ?

3) no water found in radiator = it evaporated after the blown gasket event ?

Can experts please comment ?

Sudarshan
Edit ; P.S. the prop shaft twist : old & rusty inside , another remote chance > vehicle accidentally running on 2 Wheel 'Low' mode ( not engaging front prop & low range on T case ) or Free wheel hubs not locked or faulty .

Last edited by Sudarshan : 7th March 2011 at 18:15.
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Old 7th March 2011, 18:31   #24
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

Soumya, loved the limericks

If no one has anything more to add or debate, in critical evaluation of what has already been said ill sum it up.

I think we all see the extreme videos in You-tube and many such sites and imagine ourselves, in our vehicle, attempting the same feat. Our vehicles are not prepared for that kind of extremity. Period! This is like when one used to come out of a theater after watching a Bruce Lee film, for atleast a few hours later, we all thought ourselves to be the Legend himself. I think this works the same way for some of us.

It does not make sense to me when some of us knowing the perils, will still drive in unknown water depths just to be different. What are we proving by this, that we are more gutsy? I dont think so. I think secretly a lot of the onlookers looks at these and laugh at the ones attempting. I think its a misunderstood display of manhood.

Let me tell you about water, having been there and getting stuck. I

m sure a lot of us have been there but think i was the only unfortunate one who got stuck at a not so deep River bed crossing at AKC. Without getting into details of what happened (as i have discussed it thread bare in the relevant thread) id like to tell you that i hate to get my vehicle in water if the level is anything, 3/4th above the tyres. Mud and muck i will not try until i am guaranteed it will not mess up my interiors.

The AKC water body was a flowing river, very clean river water which i got stuck in due to a flash flood. Immediately turned the engine off and didnt crank it till i was rescued onto firm ground and had waited a few minutes first.

The necessary lubricating with WD 40 to the essential parts was done and then tried cranking the engine. It worked, i crossed the same river bed, whose levels had gone lower by then and reached the farm. The next day the Jeep started overheating even in short distances. To the naked eye there seemed no problem. Even checking the oil showed no signs of water mixing. Thank God for UBS who was present with us, he directed us to the nearest service station and we pressure hosed the radiator core. You wont even believe the kind and amount of muck that came out of that. The water was muddy, it didnt look like it was...but it was. 5 minutes later we were driving to Sawarsai and not once did the overheating trouble us.

So what im saying is that when you get a vehicle like the Jeep with its fully exposed radiator in muddy water, mud gets deposited in between the cores which is virtually impossible to detect or remove without pressurized water. Therefore be really weary of putting the Vehicle through water, especially muddy water. Water invites, rust and screws up many components, not to mention entering the cabin and making things really dirty and soggy. Its another thing to drive in the rain and another to take the vehicle in the water for a dunk. After all,its not amphibious is it?
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Old 7th March 2011, 19:24   #25
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

Soumya - is the good parts point no 5 for me ?

sudarshan - first things first , my front prop shaft has twisted , i comfortably drove back in 2wd , secondly it was not at all rusty , and lets not forget i dont have free wheel hubs. so it is still a mystery on how it got twisted so badly.

what i think is - 1) recovery = lot of load on the drivetrain
2) loads of traction from the tyres
3) lots of torque as i was on 3/4th throttle as the stuck jeep wasn't budging so i was increasing throttle slowly

so 1+2+3 = broken/twisted prop shaft.

also to be noted i was facing the stuck vehicle and was in reverse gear which i believe is the shortest which equals to even more torque

PS-my dad went on seeing the prop shaft
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Old 7th March 2011, 19:25   #26
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy View Post
The Latter part is what happened. The exhaust took in the water and stalled the engine. The rear end of the exhaust is a complete disater, this needs to be altered or changed completly. In my case changed completly.
@ Abishek, IMO from the video, it appears that the inlet took water and the engine died. The Air intake in the THAR is just behind the front HL and even a small quantity via inlet is enough to stall the engine.

Whereas, water through exhaust is difficult to reach the engine at such depths especially when the engine is running.

Ofcourse M&M experts can help you judge better.

Nice terrain
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Old 7th March 2011, 19:38   #27
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

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Originally Posted by garrett_t16 View Post
and lets not forget i dont have free wheel hubs. so it is still a mystery on how it got twisted so badly.
Well, you just solved the mystery. Generally, the hub locks are the weakest link. If you had hub locks, they would have broken before the drive shaft.
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Old 7th March 2011, 20:40   #28
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

Sorry guys I was little busy so couldn't comment.

Here are my two cents

1) Trail was good and there was lot more to explore
2) 2 gypsies which broke down was purely drivers fault, I clearly told them don't try but they did. (I personally blame the spotter and drivers)
3) Manans prop shaft damage was beyond my imagination. Pure bad luck
4) Jonga was running like car but ruined our happiness in return but it was expected because it was our first test drive of the vehicle
5) Thar gasket blown for any reason I don't weant to comment on it but it got stuck that's also ok but it didn't start at all after that which was sad. All the vehicles which got stuck in water did start in few minutes.

I think abhi needs to get water proofing done. Rest thar was very smooth and fun to drive. I crossed that patch without any efforts.
6) Kishors jeep was flawless and he was sankat samay ka hanuman for that day.

Now few things I would like to say here, I might sound blunt this time but we have tried to be polite and it doesn't work. So I can't help it.

Major problem with our gangf is enthusgiri everybody wants to spot. Please stop it. Get out of the vehilce and enjoy but with your mouth shut. Too many people just confuses the driver.

Soumya,amol were the who noticed this yesterday also and so did I.

Next time onwards if anyone is spotting apart from official spotters will not be invited for any other events.

Secondly guys please buy a proper tool kit. It helps.

Thanks to soumya,amol,prasad,kishor,manan and faisal for all your help.

Cheers
Devang

Last edited by GTO : 7th March 2011 at 22:25. Reason: First warning. STRICTLY no abusive language on this forum, not even indirectly
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Old 7th March 2011, 22:26   #29
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

A few words about the aborted trail we had planned...

The first obstacle was a double descent with a tree mid-way with branches that threatened to rip off roll-cages and soft-tops. This is the same tree that mangled Ravi's roll-cage during the last Tungarli OTR.

The second obstacle was initially a double-step climb but by this time we had lost:
1. Ibrahim (Gypsy - broken prop shaft)
2. Paras (Gypsy - broken transfer case mounts)

Also due to the tricky nature of the first obstacle the vehicles were taking a long time to pass through. 4 vehicles completed the second obstacle which was dumbed down from the 2-step climb to a 1 step climb.
1. Kishor's jeep went through without any drama
2. Imran's Gypsy went through half-way but had to take an alternate path around the second half
3. Abh's Thar went through but there was a worrying thud as it grounded somewhere
4. Manan's jeep went through without any drama

Once 4 vehicles were through I decided to head to the 3rd obstacle which was the now infamous water crossing. Manan tried this obstacle from a different point to where I was planning and got stuck. Kishor's jeep aided recovery. Kishor then tackled the obstacle from the point I had recommended.

This water crossing is a superb obstacle because you enter the water, go in at a shallow gradient for 1 car length and then there is a drop up to the lower headlight level for a jeep with 31" MT tires. Kishor went in slow and then used some more throttle once he was in, came out the other side quite easily. Manan tried next and cleared the obstacle as well. Amit tried in his Gypsy with oversize (not sure what size) HT tires and came out with a bit of drama at the end. From this point on the drama started...

First the green MM540 went in and got stuck. Simply no traction from the road tires and not enough throttle given once the vehicle entered the water. You all know the rest...
Manan "Pretelized" his prop-shaft during the rescue of the green jeep.

Imran Saudagar's Gypsy went in and out with ease!
Devang driving Abhishek's Thar went in...STALLED! Re-started and drove out with ease.

Imran Ladak was the next to get stuck and you all know the rest.

Abhishek decided to go in with a fully-loaded That (still without HT and AC in case you are confused ) and got stuck and got into a world of trouble.

While all the recover was going on, Kishor, Soumya and I decided to head out to find a easy way out as we had 5 broken down vehicles to extract from the scenery!! Drove around the Water's edge to find David Gilmour...

Ok...actually we drove around the water's edge to find a relatively easy path back to civilization. Job Done!

I couldn't stay beyond 4:00pm as I had to ride home and I don't like riding in the dark...so I left the guys behind and missed most of the post-Lonavala drama!

Awesome OTR..lots of fun and lots of stress. We've got the fun angle down pat, now we just need to work on being serious and efficient and not being total tools and taking someone's kindness with recovery support for granted. Next time recoveries will cost you money!
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Old 8th March 2011, 07:29   #30
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Default Re: Extreme Offroaders - off-road to breakdown hell (tungarli)

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A few words about the aborted trail we had planned...

Awesome OTR..lots of fun and lots of stress. We've got the fun angle down pat, now we just need to work on being serious and efficient and not being total tools and taking someone's kindness with recovery support for granted. Next time recoveries will cost you money!
Epilogue:

Perfectly put Guru.

Excerpt from a facebook post of mine:

"We got home at 9 pm after adding a round of expressway towing in peak traffic. My petzl headlamp flashing facing backwards to act as safety light. Shouting in marathi at autos and 2 wheelers trying to cut across the tow rope. Till midnight I was still burping petrol vapors caused by sucking petrol from carb. But yes it was awesome since we all are suckers for punishment "

May The Fours Be With You!
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