Mahindra 4WD vs Modern 4WD

[Samurai]

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-of...ges-dubai.html (Offroading images from Dubai)

This thread provides a nice contrast to our usual off-roading shots from India. On one side we have ancient design Gypsy and Mahindra Jeeps scaling mountains and rivers. And on this thread we have most modern Jeeps and SUV scaling the Wadis. Will these two ever meet on the same terrain?

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Samurai

This thread provides a nice contrast to our usual off-roading shots from India. On one side we have ancient design Gypsy and Mahindra Jeeps scaling mountains and rivers. And on this thread we have most modern Jeeps and SUV scaling the Wadis. Will these two ever meet on the same terrain?

Are you suggesting we compare them? I don't think there is a contest. Modern machines outclass the oldies in terms of comfort and long distance offroad useability. The oldies are fun in short distance fun, that's it.

[vinod_nookala]

Originally Posted by Samurai

This thread provides a nice contrast to our usual off-roading shots from India. On one side we have ancient design Gypsy and Mahindra Jeeps scaling mountains and rivers. And on this thread we have most modern Jeeps and SUV scaling the Wadis. Will these two ever meet on the same terrain?

I hope your wish comes true!! Amen! We desperately need modern 4wds. With all the due respect to invincible machines like Mahindra jeeps & gypsys i wish we could get the defender made in india with reduced price tag, JEEP makes inroads in the market which is second largest in the world, toyota speeds up its act and brings in fortuner and the legendry 80 series in pick up and station wagon alike offered in australia. All wishes....

I feel true and the best 4wd days for india are ahead

[DKG]

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

We desperately need modern 4wds.

I had the privilege of owning and extensively using a brand new Landcruiser and must confess its depth of character both offroad and onroad is aweinspiring. Its such a phenomenal vehicle that I felt every home should have it. Its the ultimate family fun vehicle.

As you rightly say we here in India are just around the corner for some awesome 4x4's to start trickling in. Just a matter of time. Hopefully within the next 2 years!

PS Next time you see the Landcruiser bend down and see the mechanicals underside. Its built like a truck and can handle a lot of abuse. And what is most astounding is the ride quality Toyota has achieved.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by DKG

Are you suggesting we compare them? I don't think there is a contest. Modern machines outclass the oldies in terms of comfort and long distance offroad useability. The oldies are fun in short distance fun, that's it.

Please define - "long distance offroad useability"

The New generations 4x4s are no match for the Old Generation 4x4 in Off-Road Country.

And it is only in INDIA that we can see Old generation 4X4s being used alongside New generation 4X4........those who have joined on these outing know where each stand.

Regards,

Arka

[DKG]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Please define - "long distance offroad useability"

Crossing deserts or driving up rocky wadis for more than 70+ kms, sounds like "long distance offroading"???

Try doing that in 50+ degrees celcius and you'll understand what comfort in offroading means.

In wadis trying to do this in old world offroaders will end up in smashed suspensions in no time given the speeds at which modern offroaders can handle this.

The New generations 4x4s are no match for the Old Generation 4x4 in Off-Road Country.

And it is only in INDIA that we can see Old generation 4X4s being used alongside New generation 4X4........those who have joined on these outing know where each stand.

Regards,

Arka

Wow, now that is a sweeping statement my dear Sir!! You very obviously have no clue about what you just said and given the total absurdity of your assertion I think it would be impossible to educate you on the incorrectness of your assessment.

Perhaps there's a simpler explanation as to why people use old generation 4x4's ? They can't afford anything else???

Sorry Arka but you just astound me

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by DKG

Wow, now that is a sweeping statement my dear Sir!! You very obviously have no clue about what you just said and given the total absurdity of your assertion I think it would be impossible to educate you on the incorrectness of your assessment.

Perhaps there's a simpler explanation as to why people use old generation 4x4's ? They can't afford anything else???

Sorry Arka but you just astound me

Hi DKG,

For someone who considers a 4x2 telcoline an off-roader thats pretty hard hitting.

Maybe you should join us for a Off-Road Trip in your 4x4, you'll get educated on the incorrectness of my statement.

Regards,

Arka

[jaysmokesleaves]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Please define - "long distance offroad useability"

The New generations 4x4s are no match for the Old Generation 4x4 in Off-Road Country.

Sir with all due respect to your offroading knowledge & experience that statement smacks of jealousy & ignorance to me. Sounds like an oldtimer thumping his chest claiming that his lambretta is better than the eterno.
Try comparing a stock old 4x4 with an equivalent stock new 4x4(not the indian ones). Take the humble jeep for example. Do you really think the prehistoric mahindra jeep will go the distance in 50*c approx temp without overheating & going bust. Even if it can manage that then it does not have enough power & torque to propel it through a wadi style dune bashing session.

Originally Posted by ex670c

And it is only in INDIA that we can see Old generation 4X4s being used alongside New generation 4X4........those who have joined on these outing know where each stand.

The 4x4s that are sold in India and used for offroading honestly do not have the potential for offroad barring a few premium 4x4's. The rest like the endeavour & the old pajero are no where close to true new gen 4x4's. These examples can be compared with our own homegrown scorpio & safari.
And im sure you know that 4x4 offroading is as much skill as much as vehicle capability. In that context you may put a dud in a landcruiser & he will get stuck..while someone as skillful as you may manage it in a prehistoric jeep.

The honest truth is that for the offroad enthusiast in India there is no other option to choose from. So he is left to experiment with his jeep & gypsy which is like a frog in the well. Now we have scorpios endeavours & safaris and old pajeros as examples of modern offroaders which to me is like shooting with a water pistol and claiming to be better than the wild wild west.
No offence meant.

[Samurai]

DKG, Arka,

Guys, both of you are highly respected contributors. Please keep the conversation civil, don't let it get ugly.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi DKG,

For someone who considers a 4x2 telcoline an off-roader thats pretty hard hitting.

Maybe you should join us for a Off-Road Trip in your 4x4, you'll get educated on the incorrectness of my statement.

Regards,

Arka

Oh come on Arka you serious believe I bought the 207 for offroading? I have used the new generation Wranglers, Cherokees, Grand Cherokees, Range Rover, Land Rover Discovery, short and long wheelbase Nissan Patrols, Prado and the TLC GXR (I owned one) and driven all the Jeeps you are used to here to say this that you my dear sir have limited knowledge of modern 4x4 machines to make such a sweeping statement.

You are doing a great job of encouraging the sport and I have no doubt that old style 4x4's are huge fun but have severe limitations for long distance hardcore offroading. To say that modern 4x4's are no patch on the old stuff is utter nonsense and frankly I cannot even begin to attempt to clear your misconceptions.

But lets not digress. Lets hear your views of the Landcruiser. I am really curious to see how you view that machine. Prado or otherwise. Give us your lowdown on the machine Arka. Lets make this banter educational. For the reading pleasure of all please compare the 540 you use with the Prado and dissect the Prado (God!! never knew I'd encourage such a conversation!) but what the heck this is now entertainment for me anyways

[jaysmokesleaves]

Im a big fan of the mahindra classic. Had one too for a short while. Did quite some memorable stuff in it. Also went for a few mahindra offroad events with few friends. Trust me, from an offroading perspective that is surely not serious offroading. Im sure you are aware of better offroading than Iam. But after driving some new gen stuff after my classic, i realised that i was a frog in a well with this invincible air that my classic was best.
Now i feel, yea, the classic is one heck of a looker with that macho feel and look of invincibility. But unless you heavily modd that thing(seen one red one on this forum by some mr.prabhakar i guess), i dont think its worth much.
BUt id prefer my 4x4 to be able to have a better top speed onroad without sounding like a rolls royce engine on an airbus about to take off on the runway, with lesser vibes and shudders.
Lastly as dkg says > for those who cant afford it the jeep & gypsy is offroading heaven.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Samurai

DKG, Arka,

Guys, both of you are highly respected contributors. Please keep the conversation civil, don't let it get ugly.

But ofcourse, you have my word Samurai san Do please keep me in check if I appear out of line. Considering the debate already is so out of line!!

Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves

But after driving some new gen stuff after my classic, i realised that i was a frog in a well with this invincible air that my classic was best.

Just so ironic I made this "frog in the well syndrome statement to someone" just a few minutes ago and you say it here. It really does sum it up. Its no contest guys, but lets have some respectful banter, afterall Arka is all charged up to demolish all modern 4x4's

BTW Forget the 540 engine getting busted. In that heat I lost a dear friend who died of dehydration. And our friend likes to believe he'll use a 540 across the desert?

[jaysmokesleaves]

Originally Posted by DKG

But lets not digress. Lets hear your views of the Landcruiser. I am really curious to see how you view that machine. Prado or otherwise. Give us your lowdown on the machine Arka. Lets make this banter educational. For the reading pleasure of all please compare the 540 you use with the Prado and dissect the Prado (God!! never knew I'd encourage such a conversation!) but what the heck this is now entertainment for me anyways

Its becoming truly entertaining. Id llove to see a a professional hardcore 4x4 enthusiast dissect a prado & a 540 in a comparision.

@VIKID>> heck i almost forgot why i got on to this thread in the first place.
Heyy dude, some wonderful pics uve posted, especially the latest ones. You're having some fun. Good going.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by DKG

But lets not digress. Lets hear your views of the Landcruiser. I am really curious to see how you view that machine. Prado or otherwise. Give us your lowdown on the machine Arka. Lets make this banter educational. For the reading pleasure of all please compare the 540 you use with the Prado and dissect the Prado (God!! never knew I'd encourage such a conversation!) but what the heck this is now entertainment for me anyways

Hi DKG,

I have definitely not owned as many 4x4s as you have, but I have driven off-road pretty much all 4x4s available in India barring a few exotic ones like the G-Wagen & Jeep Wrangler.

MM540 Vs Prado
1) Creature Comforts - Prado/TLC80/ BZJ80 (Solid Axle)
2) Power to Weight - MM540XD (58Bhp per ton) may go in the Prados favour depending on the Engine (2.5L is no match)
3) Approach Angle - MM540XD
4) Breakover Angle - MM540XD
5) Departure Angle - MM540XD
6) Suspension - MM540XD (the coil-spring offers a better ride and articulation but under acceleration, the coils compress, resulting in lower GC and loss of power and traction.
7) Wheel Base - 93.5 vs 115+ inches obviously MM540XD
8) Fording Depth - MM540XD
9) Engine - Prado
10) Gearbox - Prado
11) Reliability - MM540XD (in India)
12) Servicability - MM540XD (In India)
13) Agility - Off-Road MM540XD
14) Footprint - MM540XD
15) Modifications - MM540XD (In India)
16) Axles - Prado
17) Chassis - Prado
18) Body & Built Quality - Prado

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-of...am-quarry.html (Report - Offroad Training Day at Kelambakkam Quarry) (Report - Offroad Training Day at Kelambakkam Quarry)

Palar Challenge - Participants Pictures :: Fotopic.Net

A few places where I have driven the TLC and the MM540.

Also most people who buy New Generation 4x4s cannot afford to either modify it or repair it after or for off-road activities in India.

Regards,

Arka

[DKG]

Based on the data you have posted and your personal experience would it be apt to conclude that as per your analysis the MM540 is a superior offroader than the Prado?

BTW I had access to all these vehicles as I worked for 10 years for the dealership that sold Wranglers/Cherokees/GrandCherokees in Dubai. I also owned a brand new Toyota Landcruiser GXR which I used extensively offroad along with many other enthusiasts who owned the other vehicles I mentioned. I have seen them all under severe offroading conditions.