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Old 31st August 2011, 11:36   #16
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Default Re: Mm540xd

Quote:
Originally Posted by HJ13 View Post
But it fall short due to wrong measurement taken by me.[/list]
It fall short by 2.5" only.
I can still use it if I get an 7.5" long yoke (with 16 spline).

Something like this I have in mind:
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Old 31st August 2011, 20:39   #17
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Default Re: Mm540xd

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Originally Posted by HJ13 View Post
For me it is difficult to estimate the length of the rear propeller shaft as current differential is centered
If somebody has the length readily available, please share.
My calculation is:
Front shaft - 25" + 1" travel in yoke
Rear shaft - 31" + 1" travel in yoke
Provided this figures to Venus motors - waiting for their call.
Hi HJ13,

Please Change the Rear Diff-Housing to a Right off-set Diff other wise you will have
i) Drive line vibration.
ii) Transmission Loss, Slower Acceleration, Reduced Top Speed, and Fuel Economy.
iii) Excessive wear of the Prop-Shaft Spline Yoke.
iv) Excessive Crown and Pinion gear Wear.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 1st September 2011, 11:52   #18
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Default Re: Mm540xd

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Please Change the Rear Diff-Housing to a Right off-set Diff
Thanks Arka,

In fact, I am working on the same.
Due to Holy month of Ramzan, friends at scrap market were going slow.
Hoping to complete the task this week end.

It would be a great help If you can comment on below two points:
1. Can I fit rear crown-pinion to front?

This link says that interchangeability depends on type of cut (spiral vs straight) - Front crown/pinion different fron the rear.

And this photograph of (front) crown pinion of my jeep says that we have straight cut.
Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3513.jpg

Pls confirm.

2. What do you think about my previous post (spline yoke)? Should I go for that type of solution? I hope it will not introduce any vibration.

Thanks,
Hiren
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Old 2nd September 2011, 20:31   #19
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Default Re: Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD

Dear Hiren,
The front and rear hypoids are interchangable. They are spiral gears NOT straight tooth
suresh

Last edited by Suresh Stephen : 2nd September 2011 at 20:32. Reason: double typing
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Old 20th September 2011, 23:32   #20
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Default Re: Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD

Ok. So here is the update:

Changes made
  1. Have changed rear differential to driver side offset.
  2. New rear propeller shaft (XLO made)
  3. New front propeller shaft (after welding and lathe work)
  4. New front crown pinion (4.27) to match with rear crown pinion ratio
  5. Skid plate
  6. New 4WD specific gear shift lever housing (earlier was a Jugad)
  7. New speedometer chain (Mahindra)

Changes in queue
  1. Installing Free Wheeling Hubs - next week
  2. Spike Arrestor - searching
  3. 2 lever Tcase shift lever knobs with shift pattern marked on it - searching
  4. Rear wheels are running tight, need to look at it - next week

Pictures

The two drive shafts are not exactly in parallel
Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3629.jpg
Front pumpkin which almost touches the leaf spring
Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3627.jpg
Rear pumpkin which has gap from the leaf spring
Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3625.jpg
Front drive shaft welded
Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3630.jpg
Skid plate
Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3632.jpg
Rear drive shaft yoke travel distance (I hope this is enough)
Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3633.jpg

Whether these changes solved problems posted earlier?

Problem
#1 (more revving, less power),
#2 (loss of power),
#3 (reduced top speed) and
#4 (reduced free rolling)
#5 (Reduced mileage)
All are almost solved. Whatever the gap is - it is due to rear wheels not running freely and due to the absence of free wheeling hubs. Will have to wait till the end of next week.

As I posted earlier, overall greasing also helped much here.

I still need to use 1st gear for initial start. But I think considering the added weight (front live axle and transfer case) it is okay and will remain so.

Top speed with full pedal pressed - 95 KMPH.
Mileage on mixed mode driving (highway + city) - 10.5 KMPL.
I am hoping for 100 KMPH and at least 12 KMPL once I got the rear wheels serviced and FWH installed. Let's see.

Problem #6 (vibration on idle running)
It is still there. Planning to look at it next week.

Questions I have
  1. Look at the picture #1. Still the rear propeller shaft is not completely straight. Especially when one compares it with the front drive shaft which is completely straight.
    Ideally the rear pumpkin should be located completely near driver side leaf spring as in the case of front pumpkin.
    Currently the rear pumpkin is like one has switched the tubes.
    Is it normal?
    I ask this because - sometimes I still here noise at 60KMPH speed which is very identical (but very low) to one that was present when the rear drive shaft was crossed (not aligned to Tcase).
  2. For maximum top speed, my mechanic recommended 4.88. But I was opting for 4.27. We decided to test both.
    We got 100KMPH with 4.88.
    We got 93KMPH with 4.27.
    The only difference between the two tests was -
    with 4.88 there was no front drive shaft connected, whereas
    with 4.27 we had front drive shaft connected.
    I am planning for the speed test again assuming that the problem of rear wheels not rolling freely may got introduced between the shift from 4.88 to 4.27. Also installation of FWH will be like we do not have the front drive shaft connected. Let's see.
    But the question is - as far as top speed is concerned, 4.27 is good compared to 4.88. Am I right?

Lessons learned
  1. Patience. Don't think about selling out your Jeep when things are going in wrong direction. Better have a break for sometime and then start debugging.
  2. Learn and stick to the basic principles. Your mechanic may suggest you whatever he is comfortable with.
  3. Its a jeep thing, not everybody will understand (people may laugh at you).
  4. Differential ratio = number of drive shaft rotations you get on turning a wheel (on jack) fully, and twice. No need to open the pumpkin (especially if the ratio label is missing).

I would like to thanks all of you friends for being with a newbie.
And Adi (AVR), it was really a pleasure to meet you and your 540.
Thank for your help.

Will post new findings.

And BTW, we had a trip to a site nearby - Satrunji Dam, Palitana.

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Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-2.jpg
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Old 1st October 2011, 15:22   #21
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Default Re: Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD

After closely watching this photograph of a stock MM540 4WD
(found on this post - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...ml#post1429413 (Got My 4wd ( MM540 )))

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now I am sure that
all MM540 4WD vehicles have their rear drive shaft somewhat crossed - they are not completely straight between Transfer case and Differential.

One more post found at -
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...ml#post1208665 (My MM550)
also confirms this fact.

The 4WD differential housing is same as 2WD differential housing with tubes switched.
Mahindra have not made a separate differential housing which is more appropriate for 4WD.

Considering Arka's post (#17 in this thread), I think this in not good.
Problems mentioned by Arka may remain at least up to some extent.

Why am I digging all this?
Because my Jeep produces a noise when I press and depress the pedal at a speed around 60. Is it mashing of shaft spines with yoke grooves producing this noise as they are not aligned completely with each other? Or is it U joint? But U joints are new. Can it be some worn out bearings at differential or transfer case?

This noise is not pronounced now, but it was when I was using 2WD differential housing with Tcase (in other words - when the drive shaft was more angled to Differential).
Other MM540 4WD users can help here by sharing their experience, I want to eliminate this annoying noise completely.

What about MM550 and other Jeeps that comes into two different variants (2WD and 4WD)?
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Old 2nd October 2011, 08:16   #22
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Default Re: Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD

I want to draw your attention here
the front prop shaft bearings dont seem to be aligned , pl. check . This can be done with taking the assembly out & rotating the slider ( male -female ) step by step till it aligns have a look

Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3629.jpg-prep.jpg


Also from my experience

1) Use your own grease gun filled with castrol wheel bearing grease , specially for the Prop shaft cross bearings

2) Use another grease gun filled with chassis grease for all other undercarriage greasing points

do the greasing every month & you wont require more than 50 gms at a time for the whole operation & parts will last much much longer

BTW , its time for good tyres

Sudarshan

P.S. Nice to see the family enjoying the Jeep
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Old 3rd October 2011, 10:16   #23
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Default Pinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by HJ13 View Post
Why am I digging all this?
Because my Jeep produces a noise when I press and depress the pedal at a speed around 60. Is it mashing of shaft spines with yoke grooves producing this noise as they are not aligned completely with each other? Or is it U joint? But U joints are new. Can it be some worn out bearings at differential or transfer case?
Hi HJ13,

Please Check if you have the Spike-Arrester fitted.

PM Dhabar.Behram & Spike_Arrester for more details.

This prevents the Transmission and Engine from moving backwards while accelerating and moving forward while decelerating.

After that check the Rear Differential Pinion for Slack/Play, if you rotate the differential pinion by hand there should not be any slack/play.

As Sudarshan JEE has pointed out please check if your prop-shaft is "in-phase"

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by ex670c : 3rd October 2011 at 10:18.
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Old 5th October 2011, 11:19   #24
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Default Re: Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
the front prop shaft bearings dont seem to be aligned
Dear Mr. Sudarshan,

You have Eagle eyes! Thanks for closely reading my post.

I talked with my mechanic about the mis-alignment of drive shaft U-joints.
The front shaft is cut, welded and aligned on lathe. And the lathe guy has centered/aligned the shaft on lathe in the same position that is in the photograph. So as per the mechanic - we should not change the current U-joint alignment of the shaft.
I wish I could have sourced the original front drive shaft of MM540 to have a clean solution.
Although I have FWH installed now and so the front shaft is not going to rotate, please let me know your view on this, if any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
1) Use your own grease gun filled with castrol wheel bearing grease , specially for the Prop shaft cross bearings

2) Use another grease gun filled with chassis grease for all other undercarriage greasing points

do the greasing every month & you wont require more than 50 gms at a time for the whole operation & parts will last much much longer
I am to follow this. As you said there are two types of grease. My mechanic said that the greasing centers use only chassis grease for greasing all points - even for prop shafts. As per him, the wheel bearing grease transforms into liquid gradually on run and will transform again into semi solid as we stop.

With chassis grease in propeller shafts, I have observed that for first few kilometers (100 - 200) it feels very smooth. But that it not the case afterwards. I will try wheel bearing grease now. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
BTW , its time for good tyres
P.S. Nice to see the family enjoying the Jeep
It is the effect of the photograph. The thread is not completely gone as can be seen in the photograph you used for pointing out cross-alignment of the shaft. But thanks for caring.

I am really thankful to my family for allowing me to buy an used jeep and welcoming it in the family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Please Check if you have the Spike-Arrester fitted.

PM Dhabar.Behram & Spike_Arrester for more details.

This prevents the Transmission and Engine from moving backwards while accelerating and moving forward while decelerating.
I have two major things to update about:
  1. Passenger side rear wheel was not rolling freely due to jammed break cylinder assembly. Serviced completely.

  2. Free Wheeling Hubs are installed.
    Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3963.jpg

    After these two, the following problems are completely solved.
    Problem #1 (more revving, less power)
    Problem #2 (loss of power)
    Problem #4 (reduced free rolling)

    Now it is time for top speed and mileage tests. Will have to wait for few weeks.
    I am to put some related info (price etc) on Free Wheeling Hub thread.

  3. Spike Arrester is fitted.

    Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3959.jpg

    Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3960.jpg

    Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3964.jpg

    Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3968.jpg

    Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD-img_3973.jpg

I know I am missing the coaxial pipe that arrests backward movement on acceleration - will fit it soon and update about the changes felt.

For now, I have introduced with one more noise which is more pronounced than the one I was discussing before. So I want your help on that first.
When I start the jeep in ideal, I can here a sound (khar - khar - khar - khar) somewhere between bell housing and gear box area. When I fully depress the clutch, it goes away completely. If I release the clutch pedal even 25%, it starts again. This behavior is same on running the jeep - it goes away completely if you fully depressed the clutch pedal, starts again as you release the pedal.

Thanks to you both for your valuable inputs.

PS: As a newbie, I can not use the PM feature of the forum.
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Old 5th October 2011, 22:28   #25
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Default Re: Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD

Quote:
Originally Posted by HJ13 View Post
Dear Mr. Sudarshan,

You have Eagle eyes! Thanks for closely reading my post.

I talked with my mechanic about the mis-alignment of drive shaft U-joints.
The front shaft is cut, welded and aligned on lathe. And the lathe guy has centered/aligned the shaft on lathe in the same position that is in the photograph. So as per the mechanic - we should not change the current U-joint alignment of the shaft.
I wish I could have sourced the original front drive shaft of MM540 to have a clean solution.
Although I have FWH installed now and so the front shaft is not going to rotate, please let me know your view on this, if any.



I am to follow this. As you said there are two types of grease. My mechanic said that the greasing centers use only chassis grease for greasing all points - even for prop shafts. As per him, the wheel bearing grease transforms into liquid gradually on run and will transform again into semi solid as we stop.

With chassis grease in propeller shafts, I have observed that for first few kilometers (100 - 200) it feels very smooth. But that it not the case afterwards. I will try wheel bearing grease now. Thanks!



It is the effect of the photograph. The thread is not completely gone as can be seen in the photograph you used for pointing out cross-alignment of the shaft. But thanks for caring.

I am really thankful to my family for allowing me to buy an used jeep and welcoming it in the family.



I have two major things to update about:
  1. Passenger side rear wheel was not rolling freely due to jammed break cylinder assembly. Serviced completely.

  2. Free Wheeling Hubs are installed.
    Attachment 821427

    After these two, the following problems are completely solved.
    Problem #1 (more revving, less power)
    Problem #2 (loss of power)
    Problem #4 (reduced free rolling)

    Now it is time for top speed and mileage tests. Will have to wait for few weeks.
    I am to put some related info (price etc) on Free Wheeling Hub thread.

  3. Spike Arrester is fitted.

    Attachment 821468

    Attachment 821469

    Attachment 821428

    Attachment 821430

    Attachment 821470

I know I am missing the coaxial pipe that arrests backward movement on acceleration - will fit it soon and update about the changes felt.

For now, I have introduced with one more noise which is more pronounced than the one I was discussing before. So I want your help on that first.
When I start the jeep in ideal, I can here a sound (khar - khar - khar - khar) somewhere between bell housing and gear box area. When I fully depress the clutch, it goes away completely. If I release the clutch pedal even 25%, it starts again. This behavior is same on running the jeep - it goes away completely if you fully depressed the clutch pedal, starts again as you release the pedal.

Thanks to you both for your valuable inputs.

PS: As a newbie, I can not use the PM feature of the forum.
THERE are chance of faulty pressure plates.
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Old 5th October 2011, 23:30   #26
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Default Re: Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD

Quote:
Originally Posted by sashas View Post
THERE are chance of faulty pressure plates.
Thanks Sashas.

My mechanic said the same thing.
I told him to replace the pressure plate but he says that it will work for few months/kilometers only, and again the sound will get started. Is this true?
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Old 6th October 2011, 16:59   #27
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Default Re: Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD

Vibration at idle. Try depressing and releasing the clutch while in neutral. See if there is a difference in vibration. If so, the vibration is part of your clutch problem.
It would be wise to get after the clutch soon. If you let it go and your pilot bearing of your clutch is bad, it could possibly damage the input shaft to the transmission and then things get expensive dramatically.
This is a common enough occurrance to be a concern.

If no change in vibration at idle with clutch depressed and released, motor mounts in particular are the usual suspect. Then, as stated above, all drive train components need to be tested with wrenches.

Last edited by DirtyDan : 6th October 2011 at 17:06.
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Old 7th October 2011, 08:44   #28
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Default Re: Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD

Quote:
Originally Posted by sashas View Post
THERE are chance of faulty pressure plates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HJ13 View Post
Thanks Sashas.

My mechanic said the same thing.
I told him to replace the pressure plate but he says that it will work for few months/kilometers only, and again the sound will get started. Is this true?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
Vibration at idle. Try depressing and releasing the clutch while in neutral. See if there is a difference in vibration. If so, the vibration is part of your clutch problem.
It would be wise to get after the clutch soon. If you let it go and your pilot bearing of your clutch is bad, it could possibly damage the input shaft to the transmission and then things get expensive dramatically.
This is a common enough occurrance to be a concern.

If no change in vibration at idle with clutch depressed and released, motor mounts in particular are the usual suspect. Then, as stated above, all drive train components need to be tested with wrenches.

THAT noise is pretty common in most 4.9DP and XD3P engines..will a faulty pressure plate cause this? Or is it the clutch springs? When the clutch is loaded, there is no noise, AFAIK, Fazal, Arka and many others including me have this issue!
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Old 7th October 2011, 09:51   #29
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Default Re: Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
THAT noise is pretty common in most 4.9DP and XD3P engines..will a faulty pressure plate cause this? Or is it the clutch springs? When the clutch is loaded, there is no noise, AFAIK, Fazal, Arka and many others including me have this issue!
Yeah, I should have chosen my words more carefully. A little difference in noise is common and is no problem. Every manual shift I have ever driven has some noise, an engaging of the clutch when at idle, even in neutral, with the clutch let out that goes away when the clutch is depressed. But by VIBRATION I understand something considerably more severe.

My guess is, in any case, that he needs a pressure plate and maybe a whole clutch rebuild while they are in there mucking around.

Last edited by DirtyDan : 7th October 2011 at 09:56.
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Old 7th October 2011, 11:03   #30
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Default Re: Problems after converting MM540XD 2WD to 4WD

Guys,

I am facing a similar problem lately.
1) When I press the clutch completely the noise goes
2) When I press it slightly while driving it goes away too. Not half-clutching but may be half-quarter-clutching
3) If clutch is depressed completely it's very irritating.

Pressure plate issues most likely correct? More interested in the fact that slight pressing of the clutch doesn't impact the driving/performance but it just ensures the sound is gone. So technically its probably not burning down the clutch yet I guess.

This happened after I had a hydraulic clutch setup fitted instead of the stock 540 setup. And the 14B transplant too!

Cheers,
Adi
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