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Old 27th December 2011, 13:10   #46
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

i would agree with flow rate of unburnt fuel as the symptom. however the core issue is how did the fuel map cause unburnt fuel in the first instance? and what leads to dataset getting to becoming corrupt?
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Old 27th December 2011, 13:34   #47
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

Dear Arka you have written the lines which i was searching from many years..

"M&M Idea of R&D = Customers' Research & Mahindra's Development."

Salute you sir..




freinds,
Can we have an ASC baro andolan to address our THAR issues, atleast let M&M wake up and do the needfull.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 27th December 2011 at 14:10. Reason: merging post
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Old 27th December 2011, 16:24   #48
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

Has this problem existed since the introduction of the Thar or is it a relatively new problem?

If yes to the latter then this would tend to point to accountant cost cutting and meddling coupled with poor testing.
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Old 27th December 2011, 20:25   #49
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Well said Arka.

BD,

If 521 was so perfect, why did M&M change the fuel map? What prompted them to do it? Was this done to improve the horrible FE of the thar?
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Old 27th December 2011, 21:13   #50
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

I am thanking my stars I chanced upon this thread, as I had decided to buy a CRDe THAR & convert it into a hard top et al....

Horrific stories that scare me - will keep me away for now - unless I come across an example that is modded with a hard top & is not a gas chamber


:-(
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Old 27th December 2011, 23:01   #51
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Guys,

I'm guessing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1) the Old data set/fuel map causes some unburnt fuel/Gasses at particular RPM (RPM Range)

2) These gasses are supposed to be "cleaned" by the Catalytic Converter and vented out through the exhaust at a particular speed. (flow rate)

3) But since this occurs frequently the Cat-Con gets clogged the offending fumes/gasses cannot pass through the cat-con fast enough ; this causes further build up of fumes/gases, since the exhaust is not working fast enough and leak through the flexible silencer pipe.

While this happens/if this happens will the vehicle qualify as BS4?

Regards,

Arka

A way to prove this theory is if any of the existing users with this gas chamber issue as it's now termed can go to a PUC center and get readings. May show an increase? Am i right or since the gases are escaping there will be no change in readings?
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Old 28th December 2011, 10:18   #52
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
BD, If 521 was so perfect, why did M&M change the fuel map? What prompted them to do it? Was this done to improve the horrible FE of the thar?
Dear Tejas - first of all, I do not even know if the map is changed. You know I don't work there anymore. In any case, every 6 months, there is a COP (Conformity Of Production) test which is mandatory by law. If anything is there, it will get noticed in COP. I only suggested the line of action, based on my analysis of information available to me from the forum. I am just trying to help. Take it or leave it. There is no point in beating around the bush. Fact of the matter is, there is a robust process out there to deal with customer vehicle issues, I am sure the process must be delivering the desired result.

I made 521 exactly as I wanted it. It delivered what it was meant to deliver. CMVR does not allow it to be sold. Period. But, if there is a will, other vehicles can also be made like 521 on case to case basis, isn't it? There is business here. That's all.

DID I COMMIT ANY SIN BY MAKING 521? I don't think I should even expect any answers. I know that this is not positive thinking but I am a little cheesed off today. I need to come out of this mindset and get back on track. Sorry!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 28th December 2011, 10:45   #53
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
I know that this is not positive thinking but I am a little cheesed off today. I need to come out of this mindset and get back on track. Sorry!
Now you know how us Thar owners feel!
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Old 28th December 2011, 13:07   #54
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

I own a Thar and have not come across the fumes issue in the cabin, what i do have an issue is with the Rusting and the shoddy job done by the Production line. There are flaws and plenty let me tell you but i dont blame any one person for them, this is the mind set of the companies. "OUR NAME IS ENOUGH TO SELL ANYTHING AND PEOPLE STUPID ENOUGH TO BUY ANYTHING".

Mr Behram and Spike Arrestor do speak in riddles and dont give a clear answer to things, i guess its like a dont quote me thing. Its just for you to figure it out from what they have said. Atleast with me Mr Behram has been helpful and i have no complains. I had bought the car on Mr Behrams recomendation after cancelling my Gypsy booking. The car has not dissapointed me but the Build quality has.

My car has voided all Warrenties and i do everything inhouse. This is due to the fact that the sales and service guys dont know what they talk or what they have to do, its just making money that they are interested in. Its like changed tyres and rims then brake and suspesion warrenty is void. Oh you removed the seats, hence body warrenty is not there. My 700 km car had sucked in water from the exhaust and the airfilter, so engine warrenty is not there. I did my car up myself and it did not cost much and plus i had the satisfaction that its properly done and i could better things. The point is dont depend on the service people, get it checked indipendantly too. My car does not go to Mahindra for anything. I find it immpractical for someone to spend 8 lakhs on a jeep and then to be treated to a below par product. This is my first and last Mahindra Vehicle.

Last edited by speedy : 28th December 2011 at 13:22.
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Old 28th December 2011, 13:07   #55
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Tejas - first of all, I do not even know if the map is changed. You know I don't work there anymore. In any case, every 6 months, there is a COP (Conformity Of Production) test which is mandatory by law. If anything is there, it will get noticed in COP. I only suggested the line of action, based on my analysis of information available to me from the forum. I am just trying to help. Take it or leave it. There is no point in beating around the bush. Fact of the matter is, there is a robust process out there to deal with customer vehicle issues, I am sure the process must be delivering the desired result.

I made 521 exactly as I wanted it. It delivered what it was meant to deliver. CMVR does not allow it to be sold. Period. But, if there is a will, other vehicles can also be made like 521 on case to case basis, isn't it? There is business here. That's all.

DID I COMMIT ANY SIN BY MAKING 521? I don't think I should even expect any answers. I know that this is not positive thinking but I am a little cheesed off today. I need to come out of this mindset and get back on track. Sorry!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Apologies if you got offended. Since you are the brains behind the Thar, i thought your suggestion that the map is changed may be the case. If not, at least help out the owners here by asking your friends back at the plant if that is the case. Can't you do that much for people who took your word and bought a super highway jeep?

Arka did try to explain how the fuel map change can lead to fumes. Can you say if his theory is right? If not, what made you think the map change can lead to fumes? A technical explanation will benefit the entire community.

521 was a great car but a lot of us were mislead after seeing and driving her and expected the same in the production thar. Yes, it's not your fault that it did not meet cmvr (thus did not go into production) but at least do try to explain to us non mechanical engineers why you thought that a fuel map change can lead to fumes?

Can you please tell us how to make a thar like the 521? Since you are the big daddy of 521 and only you can tell us how to make another 521 and all our collective will power will be useless otherwise.

Just trying to understand sir, please answer on a day you are not cheesed off.

EDIT:
Speedy, since your car is out of warrantee, why don't you make her like the 521? I'm sure BD will guide you in totality.

Last edited by Tejas@perioimpl : 28th December 2011 at 13:29. Reason: see edit
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Old 28th December 2011, 17:43   #56
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

I was following all the "Thar" threads from the beginning being a prospective customer. Now I think M&M personnel were using these threads to promote their product.They were misleading and mis selling to us.
Let me share some thoughts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post

DID I COMMIT ANY SIN BY MAKING 521?
No. Sir. But knowingly or unknowingly you made an impression that we are going to get the "Real Thar"

Quote:
I made 521 exactly as I wanted it. It delivered what it was meant to deliver. CMVR does not allow it to be sold
We were not aware of this spoil sport by CMVR and we expected the "Real Thar"

Quote:
But, if there is a will, other vehicles can also be made like 521 on case to case basis, isn't it? There is business here. That's all.
So if we need "Real Thar" performance, go for modifications and be ready to spend extra money. Who is starting this business?

Quote:
It displayed a very high level of performance band width that day in AKC / EXAMM. It was meant to do that on that day, as I knew that target customers were watching!
Thar was on dope that day. "Target customers " thought they are going to get this.Their fault.

Quote:
By the time things come to a head because you guys make a lot of noise about it, people "who matter" have usually got promoted or transferred so it does not make any difference to them at all
Rightly said. And of course some resign and join some other company.

Quote:
you can do one thing. Take all M&M vehicle specifications from which Thar CRDe was derived, compare them and study them very thoroughly for what the Thar should have for what it did on those days, you should hit bulls eye answer in around 6 hours. It is not rocket science.
You guys better learn these things and design your own vehicle.

Most probably this is not going to get published, But I don't mind.

Niranjanam.
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Old 28th December 2011, 17:56   #57
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

So a 7.5L+ gas chamber ? This stinks to high hell!

IIRC Thar was first sold internationally ? and if so - did these problems not show up in those markets?

At least with a beat up ol' 550 being restored I know what I get ... with a better chance of fixing it

One way to think of this is the difference between Windows (Thar) and Linux (MM 550). The former is expensive, relatively un-fixable horse dung shipped out to unsuspecting users, the latter is 'if it's broken - it's open to fix- fix it as you see fit'

Also - I'm not entirely sold on the 'grandma ought to drive Thar for her weekend lifestyle jaunt' sales pitch.

BD - looks like the MM bean counters are busy butchering your creation..
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Old 29th December 2011, 00:04   #58
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

Hi guys, ive been reading and find that Thar is a frustrating product. My first stint with Thar was with Behram Bhai. I drove with him from Dadar to Alibaug in the Thar prototype 521 with Jignesh Goradia close on our heels. I would like to tell you that he found it extremely cumbersome to keep up with the Thar and that he was driving his super modified Honda Civic type R. That should give you a picture of what the Thar prototype was like. That should also give you a picture of how good a driver Behram bhai is. He drove the Thar through potholes and non roads, often driving off the road into the dirt track to overtake serpentine ques of stalled trucks.....in the same speed what he would be doing on the tarmac.
The prototype had an amazing road holding capability and i was sold on the Thar even before they were actually planning to build it. It drove like a sports car on the road with the capability of sticking to the surfaces like a spider, defying the laws of physics and all we hear about the centre of gravity thing.

Then i saw the prototype conquer all terrain with snap of a finger.

At the end of the otr exercise, i was wanting to sign on the dotted line to buy the Thar iff it came at a reasonably good price. I was told that this is what the Thar will be like and cosmetically some changes will be made to make it more appealing. Heck i was ready to buy it with its ugly prototype looks too.

Finally, it was launched...at a price not digestible to me and i decided to wait a while before i invested my hard earned money on a vehicle that i would use mostly for off roading. What was a vehicle designed for offroading doing with a cat con hanging like a hammock from its underbelly?

I was disappointed when i drove the real Thar. It lacked the punch the responsiveness of the prototype. I was told the engine was different and so was the fuel map. "Why?", i wondered would they mess around with something they had got perfectly right in the prototype? i could not find an answer. I felt cheated and i had not even payed for it.

Now lets come to Behram bhai. I do not agree that he is unhelpful because he has always been eager to help me whenever i needed it. Maybe now he has shifted places so he is legally not inclined to comment on his previous employers or their products.

I dont think the deterioration of the Thar can be attributed to him. Its the top management who may have not understood the pulse of their customers. I shyed away from the Thar because the final product was nothing like the prototype. It was a rust bucket. Im surprised people are buying it even now. I felt cheated, so i bought a MM550 instead. BD may have felt the same way too when what he had created would have gone under the axe.

The crux is that the Thar is a substandard product. Get a MM550 guys, and after every conceivable add on, including an a/c it wont be close to 8 lakhs.

I also agree with the comment that if you want to fix a M&M vehicle, go anywhere except the M&M authorized place because they are the least informed lot regading their own product. I wasted good time and money getting the whine out of my 550's gearbox. After changing every part in the GB the whine didnt go, so they changed the top shaft and it still dint go they wanted to charge me with double labour. I paid for parts, deducted one time's labour and swore never to go to an M&M authorized workplace ever. probably i could have got the work done for as little as 1000 Rs, something i paid to get the whine out at a roadside mechanic's.

BD bhai, i understand Tejas's dilemma. I think you can not be constrained enough to answer his question. I know you can answer and should to put raised eyebrows at rest. I know that Tejas was like me, another potential buyer of the Thar who got disgruntled when he saw that the real Thar was nothing compared to the prototype you had built. You will have to admit that after such a fan following the 521 had, the actual Thar was nothing short of a damp squib.

Last but not the least i think it is unfair to hold BD bhai for the debacle of a vehicle the Thar is. Its the M&M top management who were not true to their potential buyers. Yet i think BD bhai you should help the Jeepers who are interested to make their vehicles into what 521 was. Surely theres no restriction attached to that.

Guys BD bhai is all help, trust me, just ask him nicely. If he says he does not know, id believe him coxz if he did he would definitely fix the problem....the problem is hes changed work places!!!!

Last edited by V-16 : 29th December 2011 at 00:11. Reason: add
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Old 29th December 2011, 10:13   #59
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
Hi guys, ive been reading and find that Thar is a frustrating product. My first stint with Thar was with Behram Bhai. I drove with him from Dadar to Alibaug in the Thar prototype 521 with Jignesh Goradia close on our heels. I would like to tell you that he found it extremely cumbersome to keep up with the Thar and that he was driving his super modified Honda Civic type R. That should give you a picture of what the Thar prototype was like. That should also give you a picture of how good a driver Behram bhai is. He drove the Thar through potholes and non roads, often driving off the road into the dirt track to overtake serpentine ques of stalled trucks.....in the same speed what he would be doing on the tarmac. The prototype had an amazing road holding capability and i was sold on the Thar even before they were actually planning to build it. It drove like a sports car on the road with the capability of sticking to the surfaces like a spider, defying the laws of physics and all we hear about the centre of gravity thing. Then i saw the prototype conquer all terrain with snap of a finger.
Dear V16 - thanks for setting the context correctly. I like the "sticking to the surfaces like a spider" thingy. We enjoyed that day, didn't we? .

Dear all - by the way, what was 521? Really, if you think hard enough, it's all there running on the road, in the form of Scorpios, Bolero VLXs and "Scorpio Getaways". . Their exhaust does not smell, so why should Thar's exhaust smell? Ask this to people! Think naa! Its all there! That's why I have always said "Thar is Scorpio in disguise". There is no rocket science here. Obviously I shall never say what 521 was because that information does not belong to me, it belongs to the company.

I am sure the customer care process will resolve the issue in totality.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 29th December 2011 at 10:32. Reason: fixing quote
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Old 29th December 2011, 10:32   #60
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

Hi V16,

I was very impressed by 521 and that was one of the reasons i had sold my classic and was extremely let down with the production model. Anyways, let bygones be bygones and let's move ahead. You summed up your post very perfectly.

Dear DHABHAR.BEHRAM,

Again, did not mean to offend you.

Let me take another guess as to the fumes issue: The other apparent difference between the scorpios, boleros and getaways vs the thar is the hard top? Is it that the fumes are being sucked in through the back?

Last edited by Tejas@perioimpl : 29th December 2011 at 11:01. Reason: typo
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