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Old 29th December 2011, 11:17   #61
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

Is this a simple case of aerodynamics? The Thar may have always had a smell to the exhaust.

Allow me to justify. If anyone has noticed, hatchbacks tend to get dirty on the tailgates quite a bit especially during the rains. This flat area seems to create a suction effect in wake of the vehicle which attracts dust and grime.

You may have seen these Volvo busses running around with their rear completely covered in muck. Same with hatchbacks, which is why manufacturers give them rear wipers and don't provide the same in sedans. Have you ever seen a sedan's rear glass dirty like a hatch in the rains?

So all I'm saying is that the Thar may have always had that smell and even other Jeeps, but the relative high speeds the Thar is capable of, means this aerodynamic tendency of a flat backside tends to pull in some of the exhaust and gets noticed by some people. Some people are more sensitive to this than others, so not everyone has the complaint. Having a soft top and an exhaust facing backwards certainly hasn't helped it. If the rear is sealed properly, it will help combat this fume in the cabin problem.

Drifter

Last edited by drifter : 29th December 2011 at 11:21.
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Old 29th December 2011, 11:30   #62
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
I made 521 exactly as I wanted it. It delivered what it was meant to deliver. CMVR does not allow it to be sold. Period.
From what I understand of the broad approach to developing a vehicle, the prototypes (like the 521) are built at a desired spec, and then tested to a level way beyond what the average customer will subject it to. But, any production model must also meet regulatory norms (in this case CMVR). Throw in some business decisions, and what you will have is the production model.

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Obviously I shall never say what 521 was because that information does not belong to me, it belongs to the company.
Exactly. Every one of us working for any company are only working on behalf of the company. Any internal information of the company's products is always confidential, and should not be divulged. It's about ethics and integrity.

Of course, the knowledge & experience that the person gains when working will remain with him and cannot be taken away. In the long run, the value of the experience & knowledge is more important, because that is what is required to develop knoledge/technology further.

If DB sir or Spikey are not revealing information, then they cannot be taken to task. If DB sir says that customer service can take care, he is correct. The product in discussion belongs to a company, and any issues must be taken up with, and be resolved by, the company. Not by an ex-employee. Or even a current employee.

Last edited by bblost : 29th December 2011 at 12:44. Reason: Quoted post has been deleted. Thanks.
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Old 29th December 2011, 11:35   #63
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

To clear the air...I never have blamed DB Sir or anyone else on the thar team for anything bad to do with the Thar!

I am just frustrated at the riddles in answers and non-answers. I am not technically capable of deciphering the riddles and neither have the time or energy to spend deciphering them.

All I really wanted and still want is a straight answer for issues I have. Something that helps me and not makes me run around! As an average consumer, I buy something for the pleasure of using it and not to "think" or be told to "think" about how to fix its problems. I would have bought and fixed up an old MM540 if I wanted to do that.

If we have the prototype in the market, maybe it would have been better. But right now, sometimes I wish we had lemon laws in India.
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Old 29th December 2011, 11:36   #64
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521 is not in question here. The fumes issue is.

If there are fumes and you know about the cause and the service centre can't help, isn't it a moral responsibility to help? A company won't hold him liable if he solves their problems.

Last edited by Tejas@perioimpl : 29th December 2011 at 11:38.
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Old 29th December 2011, 11:44   #65
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

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Originally Posted by manasm View Post
I am just frustrated at the riddles in answers and non-answers. I am not technically capable of deciphering the riddles and neither have the time or energy to spend deciphering them.

All I really wanted and still want is a straight answer for issues I have.
@Manas, I can understand that part. Suggest you talk to people in person / off the forum. If you try/implement any of the steps/solutions you have got, you could share the same in a factual way with/with out revealing the source (based on what your source agrees to).
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Old 29th December 2011, 11:51   #66
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

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Originally Posted by drifter View Post
Is this a simple case of aerodynamics? The Thar may have always had a smell to the exhaust.
Drifter then this should have been the case with the first lot production cars too. My car does not smell of exhaust fumes even after weeks of not running it.

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Originally Posted by condor View Post
And what will S.A (or anyone else) gain by gaining Thanks points ? Encash them like you would do with credit cards ?
Make followers and believers out of the less knowledgeable, who get enamered by the dazzle talk and start treating them as "GURU's". No disrespect to you atall but.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 29th December 2011 at 11:57. Reason: Cleaning up
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Old 29th December 2011, 11:55   #67
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

@Speedy, it takes all kinds of people to make this world. Let them be.
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Old 29th December 2011, 11:59   #68
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear V16 - thanks for setting the context correctly. I like the "sticking to the surfaces like a spider" thingy. We enjoyed that day, didn't we? .

Dear all - by the way, what was 521? Really, if you think hard enough, it's all there running on the road, in the form of Scorpios, Bolero VLXs and "Scorpio Getaways". . Their exhaust does not smell, so why should Thar's exhaust smell? Ask this to people! Think naa! Its all there! That's why I have always said "Thar is Scorpio in disguise". There is no rocket science here. Obviously I shall never say what 521 was because that information does not belong to me, it belongs to the company.

I am sure the customer care process will resolve the issue in totality.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Mr. Dhabhar,

Prima facie this looks like it is due to the Catalytic converter specially designed for BSIV. However the mind says that the Scorpio and the Bolero's both have BSIV compliance, since the hard top is too remote a chance for gasses to flow into a moving vehicle, it has to the ECU Mappings.

Question for you, what performance Mods would u recommend for the Thar.?!
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Old 29th December 2011, 12:00   #69
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

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Originally Posted by condor View Post

If DB sir or Spikey are not revealing information, then they cannot be taken to task. If DB sir says that customer service can take care, he is correct. The product in discussion belongs to a company, and any issues must be taken up with, and be resolved by, the company. Not by an ex-employee. Or even a current employee.
I wouldn't want to go OT here - if mods feel this is totally OT delete the post.

Please let me know the use of forums like this if a response to user problems is going to be "Talk to the company, only the company should/can solve your problem"? And that too in a country where the A.*.* are not known for their knowledge? So yes, as you rightly say no one can be "forced" to share knowledge - but forums are there to share knowledge isn't it?

And when it comes to Thar people want DB sir to help them out because he is one person who knows more about the Thar than anyone else. Lets face it, many of the current Thar customers went for it because of DB sir - our own Speedy is a good example. Given that whats the harm in expecting their help?
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Old 29th December 2011, 12:08   #70
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

@Partha,
knowledge: what to do / how to do something. If you know a good way / better way to do something, then share it.
Information (Intellectual property): (eg) the values for the ECU mapping (on the Thar).

Hope this helps explain what I said.
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Old 29th December 2011, 12:12   #71
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

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Originally Posted by condor View Post
@Speedy, it takes all kinds of people to make this world. Let them be.
I agree, the whole point of the post to which the mods have taken offense and deleted the post was to show that one side you talk in riddles and dont give answers when you are aware of its solution and make fun of others who are trying to help.

As you mentioned they both are ex employees of MM so a confidentiallity clause would have been signed. They are not asked to give engine design maps or anything on those lines, its a solution and not a vague answer.

My car is from the first batch and it does not smell of fumes on a cold start (4:30am), hot start in the afternoon after otr's or even when i start her after a week or more of non use. I have a strong feeling it is with the fuel air mixture setting in the map. I am guessing it and the said people can give a precise answer and help solve an issue. Whats the point of shouting from the roof tops about a creation, when you dont help someone rectify the issue.
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Old 29th December 2011, 12:21   #72
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

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Originally Posted by condor View Post
@Partha,
knowledge: what to do / how to do something. If you know a good way / better way to do something, then share it.
Information (Intellectual property): (eg) the values for the ECU mapping (on the Thar).

Hope this helps explain what I said.
Yes, this makes it very clear - as a person working in a IP based industry, I can appreciate your response.

Your response also kind of shows why people get "frustrated" - a response that says something like "This is an ECU map problem followed by an explanation of how/why a defective ECU map can cause this kind of a problem" (knowledge) can be given without revealing the exact ECU map (IP) isn't it?

Its all the more important because there are lots of theories, suggestions floating around in this thread and as a novice people like me can't figure out which one is correct. This is why we like to hear from ppl like DB, Arka and Spike so that problems get solved and in that process we learn a bit.

If it is for sure a ECU map issue, can this thread be frozen for sometime till people try out the fix and report back?

P.S: I did "Thank you", your response was very clear and concise.

Last edited by partha379 : 29th December 2011 at 12:32. Reason: Typos.
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Old 29th December 2011, 12:59   #73
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

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Originally Posted by lugnut View Post
BD - looks like the MM bean counters are busy butchering your creation..
Dear Lugnut (good name I say!) - I do not agree to your above statement although you are entitled to your opinion which I respect. I believe that professional companies no longer have bean counters. There is a very robust PMS or Performance Measurement System in place in the company. Only MBR matters, which is Management By Results. Everybody's goal sheet is defined and signed off. Everybody is assessed only on his or her performance and nothing else. This is the only correct way.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 29th December 2011, 13:57   #74
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

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Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
A way to prove this theory is if any of the existing users with this gas chamber issue as it's now termed can go to a PUC center and get readings. May show an increase? Am i right or since the gases are escaping there will be no change in readings?
I had done this earlier, without any leads. The flushing cycle report at PUC indicated normal levels and i got certificate of emission levels at standard levels. attached report. though the PUC guy agreed the fume was unusual.

I have got the thar after service and understand that new ECU parameters reloaded, and drove 500kms -no fume issues. I wanted to know why the issue happened in the first place, this thread has gone into a tangent.
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Old 29th December 2011, 15:40   #75
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Default Re: Exhaust fumes in Thar Cabin

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear V16
I am sure the customer care process will resolve the issue in totality.
Best regards,
Behram Dhabhar
BD bhai, i think you should help the persons involved if you know what the problem is. no one is expecting you to mention on the forum as to what faux pas the company has committed, maybe it is using sub standard components later on, for cost reduction or maybe changing the fuel maps, whatever. Please help.

I don think i would have been enamored and convinced to buy the Thar had i been given the impression that it would run the engine the getaways etc were running. Also i distinctly remember quizzing you about the fuel map which you answered by not answering my question and giving an indulgent and endearing smile. I read a lot between the lines

I know the 521 was running a different map and it was a different beast altogether. So if you can help people by solving the problem by rectifying what the company did wrong it would be a great help and im sure the company wouldn't mind, seeing a valued ex employee still being loyal and showing concern over a product that should have been made according to his original suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
Hi V16,

I was very impressed by 521 and that was one of the reasons i had sold my classic and was extremely let down with the production model.
Same here Tejas. Thats why we dont have a Thar but reliable other M&M products
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