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Old 6th December 2011, 15:20   #1
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Exclamation Welded Differentials - AKA - Home made Cheap Locked diffs

A little history for readers.

Open Differentials - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differe...hanical_device)

Locker, Locked-Diff, Lockers - Locking differential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regarding lockers - there is a lot of info in TBhp on where to buy, what spline, what brand, LSD comes up in between, etc etc - end of the day 16000 Indian Rupees (approx for Dana 44, 19 spline richmond lock-right locker) worth of parts (labor approx 2000 Rs per current rates) is what you need to spend to acheive the big edge over other jeeps/gypsies with a open diff.

Yesterday, i was searching for brake 'line-lock' (a brake mod 'I' intended for hand brake) - one thing led to another and I ended up in a website called XFaktorNET. Then I ended up in projects--Jeep--GM Diff where I saw this!!

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A Similar pic on net.

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This is as ingenious as one can be!! $300 is a lot of dough even for a american dude into offroading - someone invented this idea which is 100% what a Locker is intended to do in the 1st place...

More browsing aka RESERCH led to these brilliant vids...

How to weld the rear end



http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=gH4vk0pCgcU

How to lock without welding...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=9EI_JOdGFSI

A different technique (small plate)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=1T54KNwHU0o

---------------------

These are some major baaps' of our Jugaad 'things-we-do' in India. I mean, we do a m-seal putty paste-it for a cracked BA10-BorgWarner TCase crack over a rock, even do a lifebuoy soap smear over a broken radiator, use a petticoat thread to tie misc things under the hood, I mean - you get the drift...

But seriously, how many of us will pick up a scrap diff carrier, weld the spiders together, run it as a full locker?!!

These guys rock!! Hats off to the dude who invented this idea.

Let the brick bats begin...

Last edited by svsantosh : 6th December 2011 at 15:35.
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Old 6th December 2011, 15:39   #2
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Default Re: Welded Differentials - AKA - Home made Cheap Locked diffs

This is said to be a method used by some American MB jeep drivers during WW2.Today lots of people have tracked to find samples of such application if they really existed as told,but turned out with no example.More over; many interviews with living WW2 drivers have not confirmed it.Even if some minor samples really existed,they were never intended to be driven on pavement,but on rough terrain only and they had tremendous amount of spares ready to be shipped to where required or already stocked near the battlefields for any urgent replicements .Regarding the conditions of the battlefield part of the vehicle can easilly be subjected to sacrifece in return of needs.
To my thought however; It will give serious harm to the axle if the vehicle is supposed to be used for a long time and on the pavement,too with not much free spare part back up.
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Old 6th December 2011, 16:29   #3
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Default Re: Welded Differentials - AKA - Home made Cheap Locked diffs

I dont know how to react

This way

1) this is too much

2) a new section of offroad jokes must be started ( weird & whaky 4x4 thread atleast )

3) OMG

OR

This way

1) Congrats Saar --- will like to see this on your rig soon

2) Kool

3) Bring on some more

4) I want this for my Thar


OR

Bring your rig in , I have a welding machine

Sudarshan
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Old 6th December 2011, 16:42   #4
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Default Re: Welded Differentials - AKA - Home made Cheap Locked diffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by seyit View Post
It will give serious harm to the axle if the vehicle is supposed to be used for a long time and on the pavement..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
1) this is too much OR 1) Congrats Saar --- will like to see this on your rig soon
Thanks guys, the only problem I can see over a properly deisgned locker (richmond) is that a locker can momentarity unlock and lock if driven on tarmac - makes that rat-a-tat noise while doing u turns. but not possible in a fully weld idea.

But for some DIY'ers I think you only stand to waste a full set of 'diff carrier, 4 spiders, 2 axles' at most - but worth a try.

Remember the crown/pinion are not compromised!! If the spiders are stuck inside after the weld - (which looks like the case) one may need to throw the whole set out and just put another one in. A good thought for a experiment would be get a set of (used) carrier + spiders and try it out...
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Old 6th December 2011, 17:00   #5
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Default Re: Welded Differentials - AKA - Home made Cheap Locked diffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post

But for some DIY'ers I think you only stand to waste a full set of 'diff carrier, 4 spiders, 2 axles' at most - but worth a try.

Remember the crown/pinion are not compromised!! If the spiders are stuck inside==========.
OMG you have taken this too seriously ,

Sigh--- One more sane guy fallen to the Jeep thing

Apart from jokes ,

1) you wont be only risking the planetary gears but Axles also

2) you will find the vehicle difficult to turn even at offroads

3) Strictly no tarmac , think how the vehicle will behave at slightest of turns also

4) will be ok only in totally slippery conditions

Personally I cant do this to any Jeep, even if parts are for free ......

Sudarshan
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Old 6th December 2011, 17:14   #6
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Default Re: Welded Differentials - AKA - Home made Cheap Locked diffs

Reminds me of the adage Cutting off the nose to cure cold.
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Old 6th December 2011, 17:40   #7
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Default Re: Welded Differentials - AKA - Home made Cheap Locked diffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
OMG you have taken this too seriously ,

Sigh--- One more sane guy fallen to the Jeep thing
Bhai - No Jeeper is sane... not joking... on the same seriousness...

now you are talking technically and thats why I wanted to start this topic. Things were getting too boring with too many engine mods/GB/isuzu/ etc... Lets talk about something which I can safely blindly bet no one in our circle of friends would have ever thought of...

In reply to your points - what different (pro/cons) does my 16K locker has to offer wrt to this stupid silly mod/weld job? Spell it out pointwise.

Quote:
1) you wont be only risking the planetary gears but Axles also

Yep, This is was expecting - what else, GB/Joints/etc?

2) you will find the vehicle difficult to turn even at offroads

My Jeep already does behave a handful on roads, forget OTR's - the low torque is a killer!! BUT - I am talking of rear diffs only - not front.

3) Strictly no tarmac , think how the vehicle will behave at slightest of turns also

yawn - been doing it for last year and more...

4) will be ok only in totally slippery conditions

- makes you very complacent at times!!
And regd free - would you forego/exchange your LR if I gave you a free Evoque? Dont answer this stupid question - think seriously and continue on the topic - at least for the sake to educate newbies 'why NOT' to weld their diffs...!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Reminds me of the adage Cutting off the nose to cure cold.
I Know - but some people are already using this somewhere with 'unknown to us' degree of success/failure.

Not that 'I' will weld my diffs, I would rather put another 16K into my front diffs - but lets talk pros and cons technically.

Last edited by Samurai : 6th December 2011 at 19:57. Reason: personal reference
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Old 6th December 2011, 18:29   #8
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Default Re: Welded Differentials - AKA - Home made Cheap Locked diffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post

I Know - but some people are already using this somewhere with 'unknown to us' degree of success/failure.

Not that 'I' will weld my diffs, I would rather put another 16K into my front diffs - but lets talk pros and cons technically.
You are comparing apples to oranges!
A permanently diff locked vehicle will be very very difficult to drive on tarmac, and you will ruin the axle(windup) as well as tires.

As an experiment. Take your jeep. Engage 4x4 on tarmac, and try taking U turns. See what happens.

Last edited by Samurai : 6th December 2011 at 19:57. Reason: personal reference
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Old 6th December 2011, 18:46   #9
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
I Know - but some people are already using this somewhere with 'unknown to us' degree of success/failure.
No, not really. There is a difference between the juggad improvements we generally do in our Jeeps vs wacky stuff like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
Not that 'I' will weld my diffs, I would rather put another 16K into my front diffs - but lets talk pros and cons technically.
I think Sudarshan already covered the pros and cons. This stuff really belongs in the weird and wacky mods threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
As an experiment. Take your jeep. Engage 4x4 on tarmac, and try taking U turns. See what happens.
This is still easier since the diff is open.

Last edited by Samurai : 6th December 2011 at 19:58. Reason: personal reference
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Old 6th December 2011, 18:52   #10
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Default Welding Diffs.

Hi Santosh,

The problem with welding diffs are

1) The Spider Gear Set (Differential Carrier Pinions & Pinion Shafts) are not designed to take the amount of torque when the diff is welded, hence they crack.

2) Once the spider gears are welded they cause the carrier assy to expand & contract (case deflection) due to the engage-disengage like action caused by the welded spider gears.

This inevitably cause the carrier to crack.

This problem is prevalent in all forms of Differential Locks, excluding the Auto-Locker type mechanism, where there is a unlock mechanism (automatic) but still causes the carrier assy to wear out or the locker mechanism to wear out.

A simpler solution is a SPOOL, where the Crown Gear is bolted to a spindle which carries both the axles, i.e the Carrier Assy is replaced.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 6th December 2011, 18:59   #11
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Exclamation Re: Welded Differentials - AKA - Home made Cheap Locked diffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post

now you are talking technically and thats why I wanted to start this topic. Things were getting too boring with too many engine mods/GB/isuzu/ etc... Lets talk about something which I can safely blindly bet no one in our circle of friends would have ever thought of...
Your seemingly Whaky thread is now making a lot of sense to me , I can Guess what you are up to .

But this is the most difficult subject ( Differentials ) in the whole car (IMHO ) WRT learning its principles & then setting an old one in the work shop



Quote:
Not that 'I' will weld my diffs, I would rather put another 16K into my front diffs - but lets talk pros and cons technically.
I am sharing an Illustration , which I found to be THE simplest I have ever seen .( Courtesy AA the book of the car ,1970 London ) This will help you & anyone else to Understand the Diff function .
Go through this & draw your own conclusions WRT this topic , I will put my views later

Welded Differentials - AKA - Home made Cheap Locked diffs-scan0012.jpg

Sudarshan
P.S. Not parting with the Current Landy ( My third one ) at any cost --- Something more at stake than my super ego --LOL

Last edited by Sudarshan : 6th December 2011 at 19:04.
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Old 6th December 2011, 19:12   #12
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Default Re: Welding Diffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
You are comparing apples to oranges!
Actually i was thinking more like just 2 different types/varieties of apples - since i drew a parallel between a auto-locker and welded diff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
No, not really. There is a difference between the juggad improvements we generally do in our Jeeps vs wacky stuff like this.
Quote:
I think Sudarshan already covered the pros and cons. This stuff really belongs in the weird and wacky mods threads.
No, I honestly dont think so... badly executed it may be, but finding a solution to a problem in a less cheaper (BUT totally wrongly engineered way) is not... Still I dont see a direct answer what is different from a auto-locker Vs welding a diff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Santosh,

The problem with welding diffs are

1) The Spider Gear Set (Differential Carrier Pinions & Pinion Shafts) are not designed to take the amount of torque when the diff is welded, hence they crack.

2) Once the spider gears are welded they cause the carrier assy to expand & contract (case deflection) due to the engage-disengage like action caused by the welded spider gears.

This inevitably cause the carrier to crack.

This problem is prevalent in all forms of Differential Locks, excluding the Auto-Locker type mechanism, where there is a unlock mechanism (automatic) but still causes the carrier assy to wear out or the locker mechanism to wear out.

A simpler solution is a SPOOL, where the Crown Gear is bolted to a spindle which carries both the axles, i.e the Carrier Assy is replaced.

Regards,

Arka
This is what I was expecting... thanks a lot Arka. Now let me and others learn a bit before 'spool' before asking you to do all the work...

-------------------------------------------

Some more reading stuff on this topic

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Nissan_...n/Differential

Weld locking the stock differential is a popular but controversial modification. Welding a differential is typically done to a drift-use car, and is unfavorable to daily-driving conditions. With the proper knowledge daily driving a welded differential can be a livable experience.

The "welded diff" is done by welding the spider gears together in the factory differential. Special care should be taken to make the most durable welds possible, some have welded thick bolts onto the spider gears to make for a stronger weld. Failure could result in an immobilized diff which would cause an unsafe condition for you, and those around you.

Pros:

- Breaks traction consistently, makes drifting much easier than open diff.

- It's cheap, a welder will charge something near 50$ USD to weld. Replacement differentials can be found used for around 40$ USD.

- It's extremely durable when done properly.

- Little to no maintenance.

- In certain situations, and if driven correctly, you will have more grip in cornering.

Cons:

- Requires a different way of taking corners. Must accelerate through a turn, to the limit of adhesion, taking care not to break the tires loose and cause oversteer.

- Tires make noise at very low speeds (typically parking, or U-turns) as the wheels "fight" each other. The wheels are traveling at the same speed, but along different radii, which causes the inside wheel to shake, hop, and break loose at low speeds. This will increase tire wear in normal use, but if you really care about tire wear over performance, you wouldn't be welding a differential. Let it also be known that most 2-way LSD's exhibit this same characteristic, especially the more aggressive ones.

- Car tends to "push" at low speed.

- Not recommended for inexperienced grip driving. Can be very effective and far more consistent than an open differential, but requires advanced driving techniques.

- If the welds break, they can cause differential lock, and lead to a potential accident.

------------------------------------

(Front diff on a FWD car - never a good idea to weld, but still read on)

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204298

5.) A welded differential makes the diver side and passenger side tire fight the asphault when turning, resulting is premature tire wear.

4.) Turning also puts a lot of stress on the CV joints and axles. I have already had to replace both axles. One of them only had 10,000mi on it, the other half shafts mileage was unknown. The new axles (Autozone) are already clicking under hard, slow turns and all right hand turns over 15MPH.

3.) Your turning radius gets WAY worse. You can forget about making those u-turns that you were already having problems making. It jerks and shakes during u-turns anyhow, it makes for a pretty unpleasant ride.

2.) I am pretty sure that the added tension from the welded diff daily driving has also caused my lower ball joints to go out but then again, they could be the factory ones from 1995?

1.) The power steering rack hasn't handled the abuse very well. I recently started hearing a clunking noise when I would go over bumps. As the clunking got louder, I started to notice a little wheel hop while driving on wet roads. The power steering rack has got almost 1/2" in it and I can move my tire from side to side

------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by Samurai : 6th December 2011 at 19:58. Reason: personal reference
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Old 6th December 2011, 20:01   #13
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Default Re: Welded Differentials - AKA - Home made Cheap Locked diffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
I am sharing an Illustration , which I found to be THE simplest I have ever seen .( Courtesy AA the book of the car ,1970 London ) This will help you & anyone else to Understand the Diff function .
Go through this & draw your own conclusions WRT this topic , I will put my views later
This is the best video on the topic.

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Old 6th December 2011, 20:16   #14
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Default Re: Welded Differentials - AKA - Home made Cheap Locked diffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Your seemingly Whaky thread is now making a lot of sense to me , I can Guess what you are up to
Honestly I am not up to anything - I found something shocking on net regd our passion - just wanted to discuss and educate ourselves/readers why YES and why NOT...!!

Quote:
But this is the most difficult subject ( Differentials ) in the whole car (IMHO ) WRT learning its principles & then setting an old one in the work shop
I remember Dhabhar sir recently saying even himself and the best engineers in world shudder at the thought of the diff and its setup - 1 wrong move and the repercussions are much more than a badly rebuilt GB or Engine...!!

Quote:
I am sharing an Illustration
& below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
This is the best video on the topic
Not being proud - but I can safely say many of us clearly know how a open diff works, but still thanks for the Vid.

Sudharshan, Samu - I think from Arka's point 1 thing is clear. Auto-lockers still have a option of the click-click sound AKA Unlock-action under some conditions - and do not transfer unwanted torque/stress back to the carrier/pins - and of course they are made of a much higher strength steel compared to the OE diff itself... So the answer 'why not' lies there.

And I am also guessing the weakest link more than the carrier would be splines - right Arka? Not forgetting the local flanges on the hub, or the hub bolts, etc etc...

Last edited by svsantosh : 6th December 2011 at 20:28.
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Old 6th December 2011, 20:49   #15
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Default Re: Welding Diffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
Actually i was thinking more like just 2 different types/varieties of apples - since i drew a parallel between a auto-locker and welded diff.
Auto lockers allow slip but lock when a threshold is crossed.

With permanently locked diffs, every time you turn, you will run into trouble. Its a sort of transmission windup. Would you drive your jeep in 4x4 on tarmac? Same logic here.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 6th December 2011 at 20:50.
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