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Old 26th February 2012, 12:10   #1
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Default Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

My front brakes are fine, I think, but...

My 2009 Invader, which probably shares rear drum brakes with much of the M&M inventory, has had a problem for some time now that the local geniuses here have not been able to solve. Including dealers.

When the Invader was new, the brakes were great. The handbrake held on the steepest hills and braking backing up while going down hill was excellent as was all forward braking.

Now the handbrake does not hold at all unless I grab it with both hands and really crank hard on it, even then I don't trust it. Note, I feel resistance in the handbrake almost immediately when I pull on it, so you can't fix it by the usual simple adjustment underneath that takes up the slack. There ain't no slack.

Also, I have had a couple of mechanics swear they adjusted things correctly at the brake drums only to have the rear brakes end up in a permanent state of lock, wherein the whole wheel assembly got so hot I was afraid I might melt a tyre. I carry 20 litres of water around with me now to douse the wheels if it happens. This is fine for local agriculturalists who stop
and watch the great clouds of steam this produces, secure in the knowledge that this is an omen that Yaks and buffalo will soon regain their market share over these fledgling horseless carriages.

Front brakes seem fine, both front pads and rear leathers have been changed within the last month, lines bled etc. There is a little too much travel in the brake pedal but not much and it remains constant, e.g. it does not go squishy or go to the floor. Rear brake cylinders are not leaking. Intuitively I think the rear brakes are not engaging at all at the moment or very little at the moment. Or, when some mechs adjust them at the drum, they are always on.

Seems these guys cannot find a happy medium (there are lots of soothsayers around Dharamsala, you would think the odds that one of them was upbeat would be with me) between no rear brakes and 'alway on' rear brakes.

One roadside mech said I needed a new handbrake cable and that's why the rear brakes can not be adjusted....but the dealer said the cable was fine. The first guy said I would not find one this side of Delhi. Good ole M&M.

Help! I am up here in the Himalayas where brakes take on a curious significance when you don't have them.

Last edited by DirtyDan : 26th February 2012 at 12:13.
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Old 26th February 2012, 12:37   #2
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

things for Immediate attention
1) remove drums de grease them completely ( petrol is best ) & liners also

2) change/replace the hub oil-seals ,preferably with the double lip ones or the genuine ones --- local seals are crap (usually sold by the local part dealers )

3) Liner pads (leather ) dosent sound genuine or it got hard by overheating due to wrong setting -- change it once again

hope this works , wheel cyls dont sound faulty ( by your description )

sudarshan

Last edited by Sudarshan : 26th February 2012 at 12:39.
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Old 26th February 2012, 19:51   #3
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

From your described usage pattern, the linings have burnt or glazed

True the drums, change linings. Use OE linings, the ones which you were happy with.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 27th February 2012, 13:48   #4
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

Linings are new OE. Have degreased everything. Have done all the easy stuff and it has been passed around to 4 different mech shops including 2 dealers.

One guy is telling me that the handbrake cable is bad (stretched?) and this will not let the brakes to be adjusted properly in regards to normal usage via pedal. Does this sound remotely plausible?

The term 'leathers' is what everybody calls brake pads up here...not literally leather, OE in fact.

These brakes are common across the M&M product line so the local mechs should know them well....but no luck so far.
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Old 27th February 2012, 16:01   #5
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

Dan Sir ,
I think we need to separate two issues ( I may be totally wrong here )

1) Firstly its the hand brake not holding : remedy

a) this will include checking all the cables adjusters & places where the cable actually fits ( anchoring points ) for free movement etc
b) de greasing all the drums ,liners etc


2) secondly the vehicle hydraulic system

checking the following

a) for proper bleeding ( & loss of fluid ) & also the quality of fluid ( contamination of water etc )
b) proper displacement from the master cylinder ( of both front & rear sections in the Tandem system & also the working of the brake servo - booster assist system )
c) checking all the valves ( pressure distributors etc if any )
d) checking all the pipes for free delivery of brake fluid & pressure ( obstruction/blockade etc )

*f) Checking the flexible rubber pipe/hose (which fits between chassis & axle tube) checking this pipe , if it expands when you press the pedal -- such expansion does not allow the pressure in line to be exerted on the wheel cylinders

*there is also a common thing ( both in the parking & hydraulics) needs to be checked that is to see if anything is not obstructing the liners to expand

Lastly is there any load sensing ( wrt brakes ) device on the rear axle ? & if it is , have you recently done the leaf (spring ) job done ? it may need re setting

Sudarshan

Last edited by Sudarshan : 27th February 2012 at 16:13.
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Old 27th February 2012, 16:09   #6
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

I'd go as per Sutripta's recommendation: Drums to be turned, new OE liners placed. Remove and check cable for free movement, lubricate with silicone spray / change cable (if really required) if movement is sticky.
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Old 27th February 2012, 21:31   #7
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

Hi,
A couple of quick questions:
Is the effect the same in both directions?
Is the contact area over the full lining? Or only part of it?
Symmetrical for both (leading/ trailing) linings?

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 28th February 2012, 10:56   #8
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

@Dan,

I have the same problem with the handbrake on my Thar. If you find out what is wrong and a fix, please do let me know. Have given it to the aftersales guys 4 times now and each time they say it is fine, but if parked on an incline, it just does not hold.

There is also a scraping noise coming from the brakes when I jam them...even at slow speeds (10kms).
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Old 28th February 2012, 15:38   #9
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Dan Sir ,
I think we need to separate two issues ( I may be totally wrong here ) ...
Not sure about this at all. Next time in I will try to figure this out.


Guys, I am reading your posts. Most of the stuff I have tried but please keep the ideas coming. I am listening.
Brake wear is uniform, problem of not coming close to holding is for facing both up and down hill.

I am not losing any brake fluid and there is no evidence of leakage at the brake cylinders or lines. Something is way out of adjustment, methinks, but I dunno what.

Going back to another distant M&M mech in two days or so.

Mahindra, if you hear me, this doesn't make anything of mine rise.
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Old 28th February 2012, 20:10   #10
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
One guy is telling me that the handbrake cable is bad (stretched?) .
Do you think the hand-brake lever itself (upto the cable) may be faulty - that it is not pulling the cable at all ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by manasm View Post
I have the same problem with the handbrake on my Thar.
Surprising. So it's not a problem related to wear & tear of any component.
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Old 28th February 2012, 22:35   #11
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
Guys, I am reading your posts. Most of the stuff I have tried but please keep the ideas coming. I am listening.
Hi,
Other than the obvious, can't think of anything. But must add that for all the MMs I've driven, the handbrake was not one of the strongpoints of the vehicle. Most certainly won't hold it in a 1in3.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 29th February 2012, 12:21   #12
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
Do you think the hand-brake lever itself (upto the cable) may be faulty - that it is not pulling the cable at all ?

Hadn't thought of that but will check it next time in. I may have to crawl under there myself, get dirty and sweat.....not my milieu.
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Old 3rd March 2012, 15:17   #13
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Hi,
Other than the obvious, can't think of anything. But must add that for all the MMs I've driven, the handbrake was not one of the strongpoints of the vehicle. Most certainly won't hold it in a 1in3.

Regards
Sutripta
Yeah, I agree. I am also wondering if I can upgrade the rear brakes with some other better, bigger, rear drums e.g. maybe from Scorpio. Will look into it.
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Old 3rd March 2012, 16:13   #14
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

Hi Dirty Dan, I'm not entirely sure, but as most of the obvious issues ruled out, your problem seems to be due to a faulty cable, like some workshop guy mentioned. Pulling the lever doesn't seem to have its required effect at the rear drums. Where as upon adjustment, it just gets too much.

IIRC, we had a similar issue in our Omni, where the handbrakes would loose the bite, and would be dragy, and mushy, and you wouldn't be confident. Changing the cables and liners did the trick for us.

I think its worth trying.

Also, The rear brake liners does not seem to get the required travel to completely engage and disengage. So, we will have to probe into the reasons one by one. I'm not entirely knowledgeable of the complete system. Hence experts might be able to help better, to solve the problem.
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Old 3rd March 2012, 20:19   #15
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Default Re: Jeep (Invader) Rear Brake Problem

^^^
Simple check. There should be a difference in footpedal travel with handbrake engaged/ disengaged.

Regards
Sutripta
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