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Old 2nd May 2013, 09:06   #31
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

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Originally Posted by Terrainsnooper View Post
Hi Dhanushs, are you sure that the OEM Mahindra rebuild kit (including Sleeves, piston rings, pistons, valve guides etc) will cost only ~6k? I just bought all of the above (including head-gasket) but without bearings for about 11k.
Hi Terrainsnooper, the OEM rebuild kit includes, Pistons, Rings and Liners, which cost me 5975, and the head gasket, cost me some ~500 bucks. The best quality head gasket will cost you above 1000/-
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Old 5th May 2013, 00:49   #32
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

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The best quality head gasket will cost you above 1000/-
Incorrect. The original European gasket is well over 2.4k
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Old 5th May 2013, 01:15   #33
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

AVP, could you explain what is special in the European gasket, would like to know the differences.

Spike
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Old 5th May 2013, 11:46   #34
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
AVP, could you explain what is special in the European gasket, would like to know the differences.

Spike
It is a French one Spike, exactly same as the regular head gasket but for a blue lining on the silver foil area that is around the piston area.
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Old 5th May 2013, 12:36   #35
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

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Originally Posted by fazalaliadil View Post
It is a French one Spike, exactly same as the regular head gasket but for a blue lining on the silver foil area that is around the piston area.
Thanks, I don't remember seeing this type of head gasket. Do you have a photo of this one by any chance?

Spike
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Old 5th May 2013, 18:34   #36
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Thanks, I don't remember seeing this type of head gasket. Do you have a photo of this one by any chance?

Spike
No I don't have a pic. I bought that gasket for the XD2 (2.3L) which I had picked up in Nashik and later had to shelve it. the gasket had a better finish than the regular ones, it was for Rs. 1250 if I remember correctly.
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Old 6th May 2013, 09:57   #37
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

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Originally Posted by fazalaliadil View Post
It is a French one Spike, exactly same as the regular head gasket but for a blue lining on the silver foil area that is around the piston area.
Goetze was the OE in 1998 when i first did our XD3p rebuild. it used to cost around 5k at that time . hope you are referring to this europian company. it had a silver foil area around piston .
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Old 18th June 2013, 14:26   #38
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

Finally, I made up my mind on a MDI engine for my CL340.

It was a tough decision and took me a couple of months to reconcile all the facts.

Let’s start with what were my choices.

Option 1: Resurrect the existing stock XDP 4.90 by overhauling it with new sleeves and rings.
From my past experience, XDP 4.90 in the CL340 with the stock 5.375 axel ratio has good amount of torque when it comes to hard surface climbs. It has great engine braking on declines of any gradient or surface type. However, on sand/soft surface climbs, where you need momentum, the XDP 4.90 is a non-performer. It needs a good run up (on 3rd gear) to get the speed and start the climb. While you are near the summit of the climb, there is a good chance of being out of power, requiring you to shift to a lower gear. This would result in loss of momentum and the wheels would sink into the sand/soft surface.

Overhauling my stock XDP would have costed me about Rs.20,000 including labour and parts. Most natural trails in Gurgaon/NCR are sandy trails. The XDP 4.90 was always at a disadvantage in these trails. Though overhauling is the most cost effective option, it would be a compromise when it comes to offroadability in NCR. Moreover after the overhaul, if I keep pushing the engine, there is a good chance of it breaking down again.

Option 2: Replace my engine with the legendary XD3P salvaged from military scraps.
Since, new/less used XD3P are rare to find, I will have to salvage the engine from military disposals and overhaul it. There is a cult that swears by the XD3P. This 72 BHP engine is known for its ruggedness and durability and has got everything you need to offroad in the Gurgaon/NCR terrains. It is smooth and refined, weighs slightly more than an XDP 4.90, has good engine braking and is a near perfect fit on the CL340. To make things better you don’t need to change the crown/pinion (You can continue with the stock CL340 axel ratio of 5.375).

The engine will cost me about Rs.15,000-18,000 in salvage condition. I will have to spend about Rs.20,000 on the overhaul including the parts and the transplant labor would be about Rs.7,000. All in all, about Rs.43,000-45,000. Overhauling a XD3P needs skill. There is no guarantee that the engine would be perfect after the overhaul. However, the XD3P is notorious for its overheating problem. In the Delhi summers, this would only add to the misery.

Option 3: The MDI
Some say ‘MDI is what the doctor prescribed for offroading’. This 63 BHP engine is very reliable and built on technology of 1990’s (unlike XD3P which is of 70’s vintage technology). It isvery low on maintenance and is known to deliver a good mileage (not that you are bothered when you use it only for offroading). Add to that, the good low end torque, which is a must for sandy climbs.

A 2-3 year old engine would cost about Rs.65,000 with the turbo charger. (The source of this engine is always questionable. Let’s not start a debate on that). With the new engine, the crown pinion will have to be changed to an axel ratio of 4.27 (or 4.88) which shall cost about Rs.5,000. Others sundries - assembly parts including, new mountings will cost Rs.5,000-6,000 and labour of about Rs.10,000. All in all, about Rs.85,000!

Now the tough question, what to choose from the 3 options.

The “restorer” in me always wanted to keep the vehicle as original/stock as possible. Since, I use the vehicle exclusively for offroading, living with the resurrected XDP 4.9, would be big compromise. Hence, the option of overhauling the stock XDP 4.9 is out. Moreover, I would be able to sell the XDP as scrap for about Rs.8,000 and part fund the new engine.

Which left me with 2 opinions, XD3P or the MDI.

I tested both engines (MDI and XD3P on a short wheel base vehicles) on similar terrains. On sand climbs, both the engines performed quite well and were able to negotiate all types of climbs with ease (my stock XDP 4.90 would have struggled on these climbs).

However, MDI was the winner when it came to stop and start on a sand climb. While at the middle of a soft surface climb, I had to stop, realign and start again, the XD3P found it difficult to generate momentum from the start position. I had to reverse a few feet and build momentum to clear the remaining obstacle. The MDI on the same obstacle had no such challenge and took off from where I had to stop. If you go back to comparing the tech specs, the MDI has a very good low end torque when compared with the XD3P. On sand, what you need is low end torque.

When it came to declines, the XD3P was well behaved than the MDI. The reason could also be attributed to the fact that both vehicles had different axel ratios. XD3P had 4.88 and the MDI had 4.27. However, it’s a known fact that the MDI has less engine braking than the XD3P.

On the high way, the XD3Ps showed who is the boss. It delivers 72 BHP as compared to 63 BHP of MDI. I know of people who claim that their XD3P can go up to 150 kms per hour. While offroading you don’t need such speeds nor do these vehicles have the brakes to manage such speeds.

When it comes to maintenance, the MDI is said to be maintenance free as compared to the XD3P. The overhauled XD3P has an ‘OTR Only’ life expectancy of about 10,000-15,000kms. No guarantee that it will not have mid-term breakdown. Where as a MDI can be trouble-free for the next 60,000kms (assuming I get a 2010 or 2011 engine).

Being a modern engine, MDI has integrated provisions for creature comforts like power clutch. Though my CL340 never had a power clutch, power breaks or power steering, I have always longed for these comforts.

I finally made up my mind. MDI made more sense. I don’t have the time to spend on supervising the overhaul nor do I have the time to spend on regular mechanic visits. What I need is an OTR ready engine which is maintenance free, has a good low end torque and can last me the next 5 years. The extra Rs.35,000 on the MDI would be worth it!
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Old 18th June 2013, 15:52   #39
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

Hi Mustaq,

Your arguments are well balanced.

But it is always better to service the OEM engine, as it is the known devil.

The MDI3200TC or any variant is also a good engine, but when it is shoe horned into a CJ3B or MM550 body/chassis it needs the necessary work, on
the cooling system & transmission.

A well built XDP4.9 with the post 2000 injectors and FIP, is very good.

The rebuild and running in and other specifications, must be to oem specs or updated to later specs.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 18th June 2013, 16:23   #40
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

Thanks Arka, for your quick reply.

I forgot to mention that my XDP 4.90 had under gone an overhaul in November 2009. Over the past 3.5 years the vehicle had been used only for 7200kms, until the back compression and overheating problem resurfaced.

Hence, I did want to risk it again with a rebuilt engine.

Regards,
Rahul
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Old 18th June 2013, 16:27   #41
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

Regardless of what you choose finally, XD3P which would be my choice or MDI turbo, it must be overhauled by an expert.

In Gurgaon the best guy to service either of this engines is Yogendra of Yogendra Auto, next to Nehru stadium, Gurgaon. His old guru Dharampal who died this last winter was a pro on CJ3B including the Carter and SOlex 134 carburettors.
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Old 9th July 2013, 12:22   #42
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

Over the past few months, Kapil Anand, a friend from NIOC, has been instigating me to change my engine. Now with the XDP 4.90 gone burst and me deciding to switch over to MDI, I had to first find the engine.

Kapil managed to locate 2 MDI 3200 TC engines with a dealer in Mayapuri, Delhi for Rs.65,000 each. The dealer referred to these engines as 2011 engines. Since, Kapil had also decided to change his engine to MDI (on his MM 540 from XDP 4.90), he picked up one of the engines.

The dealer offered me a price of Rs.55,000 provided I agreed to part with its Turbo Charger. Since, the engine was designed to be used with the turbo; the engine performance would drop significantly without the turbo, unless it is recalibrated to run as a naturally aspirated engine. I was not confident if my mechanic was up to this recalibration job. Hence, I decided to buy the engine with the Turbo Charger for Rs.65,000. The exhaust / silencer assembly and the bell housing were not a part of this deal, for which I had to shell out an additional Rs.4,500.

The MDI engine comes with a provision for a power clutch. The installation of power clutch would require the clutch paddle to be suspended (The CL340 has floor mounted clutch / brake paddles). The suspended clutch/brake paddle assembly kit along with the brake booster came for Rs.5,000.

With the switch over to MDI, the axel ratio needs to be changed. I decided on an axel ratio of 4.27 which is a good ratio for overall usage. The new crown pinion came for Rs.4700. Since I use the jeep only for offroading, a ratio of 4.88 would also make sense. I will try the 4.27 for a few months and if required, will change over to 4.88 later.

I am continuing with the stock KMT-90 gear box and the T18 double lever transfer case. My existing clutch was changed a year earlier, hence did not require a replacement either.

The engine transplant job was done at Hukkum Singh’s workshop in Mayapuri. The total labour cost including replacement of crown pinion, transfer case & steering overhaul was Rs.10,000 and took 5 days to complete.

The transplant job had 2 surprise expense heads that I had not budgeted.
The first: Though the engine transplant looked quite simple job, it consumed sundry parts worth Rs.11,300. Second: The oil chamber of the MDI is much lower than that of the XDP and has a potential to get damaged while offroading. To protect my oil chamber (and for better clearance), I got my suspension overhauled at a cost of Rs.3,500 (including the cost of 6 additional leaves and refurbished shock absorbers in exchange of my old ones).

So what’s the total cost. The engine came for Rs.65,000, the exhaust, the silencer and the bell housing for Rs.4,500, the clutch/brake suspension (with the brake boosters) for Rs.5,000, the crown pinion and new engine mountings for Rs.4,700, sundry parts of Rs.11,300, suspension overhaul for Rs.3,500, labour charges of Rs.10,000. That’s a total of Rs.1,04,000. I got Rs.7,000 for my old engine, hence net cost was Rs.97,000.

Like all repair work, the engine transplant too requires quite some follow up and supervision at the workshop. Since, Kapil was also getting his engine changed at Hukkum’s; he took over the responsibility of the follow up and supervision.

Thanks, Kapil Anand for all the help. This would not have been possible without you.
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Old 9th July 2013, 12:48   #43
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

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With the switch over to MDI, the axel ratio needs to be changed. I decided on an axel ratio of 4.27 which is a good ratio for overall usage. The new crown pinion came for Rs.4700. Since I use the jeep only for offroading, a ratio of 4.88 would also make sense. I will try the 4.27 for a few months and if required, will change over to 4.88 later.
I am running MDI with 4.88 and I can do 90 degree turns in 4th gear. So it is not a good thing. I am planning to change to 4.27 as a result. The DI with 4.88 is too much for offroading too. The obstacle that required 2nd low in XDP & 5.38, now I can do in 3rd low with DI & 4.88 ratio.

BTW, you are driving a CJ340 powered with MDI engine, and still on drum brakes? Now that you have hanging pedals and brake booster, spend a little more and switch over to disk brakes.
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Old 10th July 2013, 14:52   #44
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

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Like all repair work, the engine transplant too requires quite some follow up and supervision at the workshop.
I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear how it actually performs, and how long it takes to get any bugs worked out, and how it works out maintenance-wise in the longer run. I know a lot of people on the forum are disagreeable to anything but the original setups... but in my experience, when well researched / executed, engine swaps can turn out really excellent.

My earlier comments were based on the MDI (as we have in our Marshal), not the MDI-TC. The former is arguably even more robust / cheap to maintain, as there is no Turbo to fail (these supposedly need replacement every 3-5 years in commercial use), and the lower temperatures / cylinder pressures generated are probably easier on head gaskets, lubricating oils, etc. Having driven both in the hills, I can say that the non-TC seems to have more off-idle (very low RPM) torque - but the TC has a significant torque advantage in the midrange.

Anyway, I have a feeling you're going to find your setup satisfying in the end.

-Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 10th July 2013 at 15:03.
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Old 10th July 2013, 17:24   #45
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

LEts see how your new engine performs, If there is an OTR this Sunday bring your Jeep we will go out to the Behrampur trail, I have not driven my MM550 for ages now looking forward to some slush and mud after all these rains.
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