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Old 23rd April 2013, 16:39   #1
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Default XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

Hi,

I just learnt from my mechanic that CL340’s Peugeot 2112cc engine is breathing its last breath. He tells me the engine has developed back compression and needs an overhaul. By the way it was already overhauled about 4 year back.

Rather than spend 20-25K on overhauling the engine, I would like to replace it with a more capable bigger engine.

My engine options are XD3P or the MDi (without the turbo). There is a big fan following for both engine types, which has made my choice difficult.

I use my CL340 only for offroading. Even with the new engine, I intend to continue with my existing KMT90 4 Speed Gearbox.

Any experience on XD3P or the MDi engines on SWB in terms of initial costs, configuration match, off road performance, maintenance costs, engine life, etc?

What’s your advice XD3P or MDi?


Last edited by GTO : 23rd April 2013 at 18:35. Reason: Removing FONT Tags
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Old 23rd April 2013, 18:33   #2
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Default re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

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Originally Posted by mustag View Post
Rather than spend 20-25K on overhauling the engine, I would like to replace it with a more capable bigger engine.
Hi,

The XDP 4.9 rebuild will cost you only about ~15k. Original Mahindra rebuild kit will cost you only ~6k, and it can be done perfectly even out side A.S.S with medium skilled labour. It is a pretty good engine in an off roader. Also, an engine swap if not done properly is a head ache, and has its legal issues too (assuming engine is not new). So, my first take is to keep the XDP 4.9.

However, if you are keen on changing the engine for more performance, and assuming the engine picked up will be second hand, I will list out few pros and cons of both.

XD3P pros:
  • Great engine, smooth, refined, and enough power for a SWB.
  • Weighs less, so, less stress to the chassis while off roading.
  • I think its got better engine braking than the MDi.
  • Higher rpm, so, its easier to drive on road.
  • No need to change the crown/pinion ratio.
  • If swapped properly, will last a long time.
  • I think its an easier swap than the Di. (not sure)
  • Will cost you only ~1/3rd the price of an MDi in the used market.
XD3P cons:
  • Assuming the engine is second hand, the XD3P is very difficult to rebuild, requires precision and skilled mechanics.
  • XD3P rebuild is very expensive. Can cost till ~50k.
  • Even after a perfect rebuild, I know many engines that overheat. I somehow tend to think that overheating is an inherent character of this engine while revved hard for a long time. ie, I've not seen a single XD3P + KMT 90, that doesn't overheat @100kmph consistent.
  • Low end torque is less than the Di.
  • Less fuel efficiency then the Di.
  • IMO, its not as reliable as the Di.
MDi pros:
  • Very Robust and Reliable engine.
  • Less tendency to overheat. I have seen an end-of-the-life engine driven in 1st and 2nd low at high rpms, for a full hour continuously without overheating.
  • More Fuel efficiency than the XD3P.
  • Assuming the engine is second hand, the MDi is easy to rebuild.
  • Cheaper to rebuild.
  • High purchase cost. ~3 times the price of XD3P.
  • Low end torque.
  • No glow plugs
MDi cons:
  • Heavy engine. So, mounting needs to be perfect. Also, heavier engine causes heavier stresses in chassis while off roading. Especially whist jumps.
  • Very Noisy.
  • I think: Lesser engine braking.
  • You will need to change the crown/pinion to match the low end torque, which is again an expense.
If you are getting a new engine, and you are not bothered about fuel efficiency, my pick would be XD3P. If its a second hand engine, then my pick would be the MDi, assuming you have a good place to mark the mountings and swap the engine.
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Old 24th April 2013, 08:24   #3
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Hi Dhanushs,

I was sailing in the same boat a couple on months back, weather i should change or overhaul my cl340 engine.
After a lot of bouncing around i went in for a rebuild and i am pretty happy with the out come.
The engine sounds smooth and has enough power and torque to move it around, had a nice time off roading with it and it never felt under powered.
During her on road and offroad runs never saw her temperature go high, it was always constent.
Heres a pic of my rebuilt engine.

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Engine after the overhaul.

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Engine before the overhaul.
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Last edited by whicked wheels : 24th April 2013 at 08:27.
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Old 24th April 2013, 13:11   #4
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

Quote:
Originally Posted by mustag View Post
Rather than spend 20-25K on overhauling the engine, I would like to replace it with a more capable bigger engine.
Please don't. A known devil is better than an unknown angel.

It's going to be quite a challenge to source an XD3P, coping with unknown history, rebuilding and shoehorning it into your engine bay.

My Jeep has run the 2.1 as well as the 2.5 diesels. While the latter is superior, I can assure you that the marginal improvements aren't worth the headache. Retrospect is always the genius and I wish I'd rebuilt my 2.1 when it had blown up. Spent a lot of time, money & effort in the entire exercise of getting the Jeep where she is today.

Related Thread (Mahindra Classic 4x4. 2.5 Liter Diesel. Back on the road!)
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Old 24th April 2013, 13:22   #5
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

Rebuilding the XDP is the cheapest and the best thing to do.

I had the CJ340 with XDP for nearly 5 years. I also had the XD3P on the MM550 for a brief period before running into trouble. I just upgraded to DI instead of messing with XD3P overhaul. These are expensive options, just stick to XDP.
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Old 24th April 2013, 13:28   #6
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

Hi Dhanushs, my MM540 XDP4.9 is ready for a rebuilt, with exactly the same back-compression issue. I had bought and driven this Jeep back all lthe way from Kerela in 2009, got it re-registered in Pune, got the registration renewed recently for another 5 years (after the 15 year period was over). Sadly, in the last 4 years, i have never been in the country in the monsoons, so I've just been drooling sadly at the AKC, EXXAM pics etc and Jeep has never seen offroading action, though I have done Pune-Mangalore, Pune Goa a couple of times on it.
But i dont have the hear to give her away before I derive some more on and off-road miles from it.
Coming to the point, I have sourced OEM liners, valve guides, piston, piston rings, head-gasket from M'lore for the rebuild (cost me 11k) - bearings will be procured after opening the engine. The mechanic chosen for this is Shetty's car care in Baner. He told me that the liners/pistons need to be machined before fitting, is that true? My assumption is that the wet-liners and new pistons were a plug an play. If you could outline a quick summary of the re-buid process and parts required, it would really help.
By the way, Pun guys shoud check out Shetty's car care - the last time I went there, I saw a couple of ex-army Jeeps and Gypsy's - there was one MM550, very well done up, with a 'interesting' hyraulic/pneumatic bellow-based suspension-raising mechanism on the front, driven by a on-board compressor. I did see some official Mahindra off-road marshall vehincles being done up too.
Thanks in advance for your inputs.
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Old 24th April 2013, 16:36   #7
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

@Dhanushs: That was a very comprehensive. Thanks. From what people are recommending, if I were to change the engine, looks like a MDi is reasonably maintenance / trouble free when compared with a rebuilt XD3P.
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Old 24th April 2013, 18:25   #8
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

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Originally Posted by mustag View Post
if I were to change the engine, looks like a MDi is reasonably maintenance / trouble free when compared with a rebuilt XD3P.
Actually, MDI is not a practical option for CJ340, too heavy for that small Jeep.
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Old 26th April 2013, 08:36   #9
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

While I'm not a big fan of both the engines - The XD3P can be abused if setup correctly. That revvability is a big plus when it comes to long climbs.

The MDI is a robust engine and is good for trail driving. On a competetion mode, the lack of wide rpm range and the lousy NGT520/NGT530 or the prehistoric MM Gearboxes with their LONG throws would hamper the performance gained out of the extra torque.

On the maintenance angle, the MDI scores over the XD3P.

Again, I have not owned a jeep with these engines, but have seen a few of them perform, so please dont jump the gun.
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Old 26th April 2013, 09:00   #10
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

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Originally Posted by Terrainsnooper View Post
He told me that the liners/pistons need to be machined before fitting, is that true?
IMHO this is a wrong. Just ask him why .

I have done this before & there is no need to do this . New Sleeves are readily fitted so are the pistons .

Sudarshan
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Old 26th April 2013, 09:37   #11
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrainsnooper View Post
He told me that the liners/pistons need to be machined before fitting, is that true? My assumption is that the wet-liners and new pistons were a plug an play.
Hi Terrainsnooper, you are right. The liners and pistons are plug and play. The only machining you might need, is on the head.
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Old 26th April 2013, 09:45   #12
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

..great, thanks Sudarshan, your posts are very informative. I'm collecting some cash and time to dedicate to the re-build. I'll post about the re-building process step-by-step when I get to it. Another concern is the head-gasket, i've busted 2 head gaskets since I've owned this vehicle and mostly it's due to the engine overheating,specially when you're stuck in traffic, one of the top reasons why I dont get to drive the Jeep much. I'll try and focus on upgrading the cooling circuit, start with a proper radiator shroud - monitor for a while, then upgrade to a larger radiator and if that doesnt work, fit in a electric fan. After owning the Jeep for a couple of years, one starts to think about having a unused vehicle lying in your parking and contemplating whether it's smart holding on to it when everyone around is saying it's time to 'move on'. I'd still say that for about 2-3 Lakhs spent over 3-4 years, it's worth having a Jeep (as a secondary vehicle) that you can take out on weekend soft-roading/camping trips and maybe to work on a odd lazy friday, rather than spend 8 lakhs on a new Thar.
By the way, after 3-4 long drives from Pune _M'lore, Pune-Goa, my advice to all with a 'built' Jeep is to keep it as stock as possible and just enjoy the drive. That way,you'll spend very little, it will be very reliable and you'll always have more peace of mind. If it aint broken, dont fix it.
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Old 26th April 2013, 10:56   #13
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrainsnooper View Post
He told me that the liners/pistons need to be machined before fitting, is that true? My assumption is that the wet-liners and new pistons were a plug an play. If you could outline a quick summary of the re-buid process and parts required, it would really help.
By the way, Pun guys shoud check out Shetty's car care - the last time I went there, I saw a couple of ex-army Jeeps and Gypsy's - there was one MM550, very well done up, with a 'interesting' hyraulic/pneumatic bellow-based suspension-raising mechanism on the front, driven by a on-board compressor. I did see some official Mahindra off-road marshall vehincles being done up too.
Thanks in advance for your inputs.
Dear Terrainsnooper,
I am sure Shetty (Sathish) might not have told this. He has fair idea about these engines and he himself owns few Jeeps/Gypsies.
That 550 is worth seeing and driving. I drove it for 100 kms and it was joy.
Which vehicles were they (official Mahindra off-road marshall vehincles). was there a black SWB jeep as well?

Shubhendra
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Old 26th April 2013, 11:43   #14
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

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Dear Terrainsnooper,
I am sure Shetty (Sathish) might not have told this. He has fair idea about these engines and he himself owns few Jeeps/Gypsies.
That 550 is worth seeing and driving. I drove it for 100 kms and it was joy.
Which vehicles were they (official Mahindra off-road marshall vehincles). was there a black SWB jeep as well?

Shubhendra
It's heartening to see that we have team-bhp guys who are well-versed with him, gives me more confidence to approach him for the build. I had been asking him to work on my Jeep for quite a while, but initially he said that he doesn't work on Jeeps since the near-by village guys were already hounding him to work on their jeeps too,so he did not agree. But off late, I see him taking the plunge big-time! You are quite correct that he did not himself say that the liners need to be machined, it was one of his mechanics who claimed to have worked on the white jeep. (He wasnt' in the workshop at that time).
The white jeep is truly one of the best mod-jobs i have seen this side of the country, it has an awesome presence. I took some pics but will not upload it, since I dont want to steal the owner's thunder.
IIRC, the official mahindra vehicles were a Armada, with a winch and a high-lift jack (and maybe a suspension lift). I did not see a black SWB when I went there. There were 2 gypsies and one ex-army 550.
Did you get any work done from him on you Jeep? Any reccomendations?
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Old 26th April 2013, 12:20   #15
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Default Re: XD3P or MDI Motor for Mahindra CL / CJ340

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I had been asking him to work on my Jeep for quite a while, but initially he said that he doesn't work on Jeeps since the near-by village guys were already hounding him to work on their jeeps too,so he did not agree. But off late, I see him taking the plunge big-time!

IIRC, the official mahindra vehicles were a Armada, with a winch and a high-lift jack (and maybe a suspension lift). There were 2 gypsies and one ex-army 550.
Did you get any work done from him on you Jeep? Any reccomendations?
Actually he does not work on Jeeps. most of the jeeps which you see are owned by him or his close friends only.
It must be Bolero without front bumper (light golden color) with AT tyres. if yes, then its owned by Shetty's very close friend.
This was the reason me not posting his picture online. He has spent months on white jeep and modified it very very neatly.
I get my work done at Wakad by a mechanic who was with Mahindra for few decades and work ONLY on Jeeps. though all my friend's cars are taken care by Shetty only.

Shubhendra
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