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Old 17th January 2014, 20:16   #16
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

Going by the damage to the camshaft sprocket/ key area, would say that timing chain breakage was the result, not cause.

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Sutripta
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Old 18th January 2014, 06:28   #17
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Going by the damage to the camshaft sprocket/ key area, would say that timing chain breakage was the result, not cause.

Regards
Sutripta
It ran well for 25,000K with new timing components installed. To me this is strong evidence that the cam, pulley etc. were installed correctly else there would have been obvious trouble immediately. The statistical "usual suspects" are the tensioner and chain. A broken chain jammed in the timing box at moderate rpm could easily cause massive damage like that.

Sutripta is obviously devoid of all reason, he is under papal influence from Rome and his sister sings off key. Therefore, he is not to be trusted.
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Old 18th January 2014, 18:08   #18
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

Not well versed with these engines or cars. How likely would it be that the cam seized and took everything else with it? I've seen these issues elsewhere and in quite a few cases, it was lack of oiling to the cam journals. In some of those cases, you'd have the cam split in half. In other cases, the cam would stay intact, taking most of the timing assembly out. Depended on the cam hardness.
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Old 18th January 2014, 20:38   #19
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

Hi Dan,
How are you? What do the doctors say?

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Sutripta
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Old 18th January 2014, 21:49   #20
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

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Originally Posted by pranavt View Post
How likely would it be that the cam seized and took everything else with it?
Hi,
Very high possibility.
However, since a blame game (with financial implications) is very likely to ensure, I for one would hold my thoughts unless certain (guilty beyond reasonable doubt, as the American courtroom TV scenes will say!) Which we really can't be.

Regards
Sutripta

PS: Cam breakage is more often than not the result of something else. Not relevant for this thread.

Last edited by Sutripta : 18th January 2014 at 21:54.
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Old 18th January 2014, 22:42   #21
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Hi,
PS: Cam breakage is more often than not the result of something else. Not relevant for this thread.
Absolutely. I'm not blaming the cam. I'm blaming oil, or rather, the lack of it. Not much else for me to contribute in this thread. Though I'd love to see more/better carnage pics. Especially to see if any part of the cam is discolored.
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Old 19th January 2014, 20:06   #22
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

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Originally Posted by pranavt View Post
Absolutely. I'm not blaming the cam.
No, was not talking of cam journal seizure. Was talking of fatigue failure (the cam has cyclical variations of loading, opposite directions). And that is absolutely OT for this thread.

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Old 19th January 2014, 20:59   #23
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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
No, was not talking of cam journal seizure. Was talking of fatigue failure (the cam has cyclical variations of loading, opposite directions). And that is absolutely OT for this thread. Regards Sutripta
Be interesting to see if you can ever determine the root cause. Im not familiar with this type of engine, but of course lack of oil wont do any good on any engine.

Never the less I would take a hard look at the tensioners as well.

Jeroen
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Old 19th January 2014, 22:04   #24
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Be interesting to see if you can ever determine the root cause.
Not possible (by me at least)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
^^^
I too am puzzled about the root cause.
However, I would repeat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Going by the damage to the camshaft sprocket/ key area, would say that timing chain breakage was the result, not cause.
I remember a case (not this engine!) where a cam bush had seized on the cam journal, and turned around with it. (The engine was running, albeit with strange noises. Was stopped when ultimately there was a sudden drop in oil pressure. Metallic granules were found in the oil pan.)

Even after lots of shouting/ brainstorming one could not choose between the two competing theories:
Lubrication failure (whatever be the cause) leading to the bush welding itself on to the cam journal, and turning with it in the housing.
or
Bad assembly leading to the bush shifting position leading to misalignment of oil ports leading to .....

Root causes can be tricky to find! Best not to pass of speculation as oracular wisdom.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 20th January 2014, 10:07   #25
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Not possible (by me at least)
You're probably right, with this much damage, very difficult to come to some sort of conclussion. Are these engines known for similar problems?

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Old 20th January 2014, 23:57   #26
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

@ All - Thanks for the valuable advice posted.
We managed to locate a decent condition engine in mayapuri and cam and timing case was taken off from it. Rest all was bought new and engine was put back. Valve action was found ok and thus head was not opened.

After setting the tappet clearance, the engine fired just fine.

A big relief

pic of reassembled engine all ready to be fired
MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure-wp_000568.jpg

After installing the engine back I got the whole vehicle serviced as well (changed all filters - oil, fuel, air), brakes overhauled (leather of brake shoes and disk pads changed). The mounting bush of front grill had broken and whole front of jeep was nosediving. Got that welded as well.

Drove the jeep back and while it ran well, something felt too tight. There was absolutely no torque. Stopped after 10kms and on checking found the oil a bit low. I had poured 5lts earlier but I guess since sump was emptied it required more. Poured in a lt. more and drove on. Immediately felt a huge difference. In the next 20kms the engine became much more responsive, I guess the new timing chain and cam must be bedding in.

Came back home and parked it. Noticed the amp meter showing a low charging - less that 12V. Sure enough it dint crank the next morning
Have put the battery on charging now. Looks like some loose connection while assembling back the engine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Timson View Post
It would be advisable to dismantle the entire engine clean it and reassemble. At least inspect the condition of values, piston crown and check for traces of metal fragments in the sump.
I have gone against the popular advice here and not opened the head. No tell tale signs from outside and high cost of head gasket kept me from doing it. The sump was opened and cleaned.


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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
Chains break with age for sure. Contributing factors might be badly set tension making the chain too tight or too loose. Either will make a chain wear faster. Just speculating here. Scuff marks are coming from chain?
I too think it wasnt set right during the engine rebuild. Yes scuff marks were from chain on the inside of timing case. That too pretty deep ones. So it was running loose for sure for some time.


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Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
Would you be inclined to go the DiTurbo way? Anyways you are looking at nearly a full 50k xd3p rebuild, might as well look at bigger or later engines?
50K!! god forbid, please dont scare me. Thankfully I got away with a tad over 1/10th of that number.
I have been trying to talk myself into a DiTurbo but I just cannot see the value preposition.
Spending 80K on an engine which is of older generation, much noisier, cruder and less revvable. Add to that the vehicle will not be road legal anymore. Only advantage is marginally higher torque and low maintenance. This much hassle and money on a weekend ride doesnot maked sense to me. Even if I had to rebuild the engine I would have gone ahead and spent 50K on Xd3P rebuild or maybe spent a lakh for a scorpio non crde engine. There is a thread running on tbhp that I am religiously following.


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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
The please pick up the part yourself and be there when the installation is being done.
The Brand New camshaft cost 4-5K.
Is there any chance the Lower Pulley hit the differential while off-roading?
Also could be a case of improper assembly.
My Guess is one of the Gears inside the Timing Case Broke, stripping the Timing Chain and breaking other gear in the process.
Or the Chain Tensioner broke, binding everything inside and stripping the Timing Chain.
Any pictures of the timing case and internal parts before they were removed.
Thanks for replying Arka. I couldnt accompany my mechanic to pick up the shaft from mayapuri as it is closed on sunday and that is the only day I can spare. Not that I have any knowledge of identifying a good camshaft. Had I know the cost of new one earlier I might have gone for it. I assumed it to be close to 10K.
Can lower pulley hit differential?
My front leafs are a bit flat but bump stops are in place.
It was the lower pulley which had jammed against the timing case when my jeep broke down. The top side of pulley was touching the case and lower away from it.
I had just pulled out of an off road section taken on the fly.
You see running late to office in a jeep tempts you to take nonsensical shortcuts to make up time you loose on straights. Its a different matter that I never managed to reach office that day


Quote:
Originally Posted by motocamp View Post
It will make sense to remove the head and have a look at your valves, guides and tops of your pistons
Also check the pushrods, you might find a few bent ones too.
Make sure your mechanic disassembles the head while you are at it, it will be well worth it in the long run.
Ensure valve timing is done in respect to cylinder 1 ( the closest to the radiator) at TDC and all the marks align.
Shortcuts now and repent at leisure
Thanks motocamp but against yours and others advice, I have taken a shortcut here. It looks OK so far, but what do I know then. Lets wait and see how the story unfolds.
Your advice of timing is over my head. I will call my mechanic and grill him on how he did it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Going by the damage to the camshaft sprocket/ key area, would say that timing chain breakage was the result, not cause.
Read my comments on marks of timing chain slapping inside the case. How do you propose now?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
It ran well for 25,000K with new timing components installed. To me this is strong evidence that the cam, pulley etc. were installed correctly else there would have been obvious trouble immediately. The statistical "usual suspects" are the tensioner and chain. A broken chain jammed in the timing box at moderate rpm could easily cause massive damage like that..
+1, a slightly misaligned pulleys would have also increased the wear on chain. I am pretty sure it was elongated beyond permissible tolerance


Quote:
Originally Posted by pranavt View Post
Not well versed with these engines or cars. How likely would it be that the cam seized and took everything else with it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pranavt View Post
Especially to see if any part of the cam is discolored.
Cam looked absolutely fine with no burn / scuff mark other than stripped head towards timing chain side


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Be interesting to see if you can ever determine the root cause. Im not familiar with this type of engine, but of course lack of oil wont do any good on any engine.
Never the less I would take a hard look at the tensioners as well.
Oil level and viscosity was fine. Once something broke inside the timing case it made mince meat of everthing else inside. So I guess this shall remain mystery.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Are these engines known for similar problems?
Nope I have never heard of timing chain failing. My mechanic says he is also seen it for the first time

cheers
Vishwas
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Old 21st January 2014, 20:20   #27
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Are these engines known for similar problems?
No. IMO quite robust as long as you keep it from overheating. The off roading community dont like these though.

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Sutripta
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Old 24th January 2014, 09:45   #28
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

My jeeps bad luck phase just refuses to end.

Charged the battery at home and installed it today morning to take it to office.

It did not crank at all. Just a khut sound, looks like starter is stuck. Will try and push start it to release stuck starter tomorrow.

Any other advice on this? its not easy to get people to push this heap of scrap metal.

I am thinking of applying the highly scientific method of limbu mirchi to ward off any future troubles

cheers
Vishwas
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Old 24th January 2014, 11:52   #29
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

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Originally Posted by vishwaschettri View Post
My jeeps bad luck phase just refuses to end.

Charged the battery at home and installed it today morning to take it to office.

It did not crank at all. Just a khut sound, looks like starter is stuck. Will try and push start it to release stuck starter tomorrow.

Any other advice on this? its not easy to get people to push this heap of scrap metal.

I am thinking of applying the highly scientific method of limbu mirchi to ward off any future troubles

cheers
Vishwas
When it rains it pours!
Maybe a silly / obvious question, but did the battery really charge? Put on the headlights and see if they're bright. Cehck the battery voltage. Check the battery connections for corrosion. If it is the starter and or starter relay sometimes a simple whack on the starter will help. If not, you have another job at hand I'm afraid.

Good luck!

Jeroen
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Old 27th January 2014, 10:54   #30
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Default Re: MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
When it rains it pours!
Maybe a silly / obvious question, but did the battery really charge? Put on the headlights and see if they're bright. Cehck the battery voltage. Check the battery connections for corrosion. If it is the starter and or starter relay sometimes a simple whack on the starter will help.
You bet. I followed your advice to the T, I had earlier charged the battery by connecting it in parallel to my home inverter.
Got hold of a battery charger and charged the battery again overnight. Borrowed a multimeter and hydro meter and it came all aces.

But still same khut sound on cranking. Gave the starter a few taps and rocked the jeep in gear but no avail.
Finally got under the jeep and found the positive connection on starter loose.
My mechanic must have left it loose when he removed the engine.

AArrggghhh..... I am gonna kill him. A few turns of spanner in a very hard to reach, poorly designed workspace by mahindra and the Jeep gods finally smiled and it roared to life.

Charging voltage shows 13.7V on the multimeter. I would have liked it to be above 14V but will do.
Dash voltage meter was still showing below 10V. A few taps with finger and it is also now beaming at 13.5V.

While I was giving it a final inspection before pulling down the hood, saw a few drops of water below the water body pulley.

Now I have a new agenda for next week.

I guess the jeeps gods were giving me a wicked smile afterall.

cheers
Vishwas
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