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Old 2nd May 2014, 01:01   #1
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Default Project MG410W Turbo

Dear Friends,
I am starting up this project mainly to soup up the cute little MG410W which is getting neglected nowadays due to lower brake horse power. My aim is to turbocharge my stock MG410W and bring the best figures and performance out of it.

As far as I am concerned, I wanted to make this project more detailed and informative. My biggest challenge would be setting the carburetor right. I am quiet confident on that, will keep updated on every phase of tuning. After all, I have all our BHPians to help and support me whenever I am stuck with .

As of now, we have started up with the header fabrication and plumbing.

Below are the list of few items which I have procured as of now,

1. KKK - TEI Turbo charger
2.HKS BOV
3.Manual Boost controller
4.FPR - yet to source
5. Esteem Carburetor & M1000 Intake manifold.
6. Small Intercooler.

Some photos of plumbing for you all. Will keep posted and more things to follow.

Thank you.
Attached Thumbnails
Project MG410W Turbo-imag1497.jpg  

Project MG410W Turbo-imag1500.jpg  

Project MG410W Turbo-imag1524.jpg  

Project MG410W Turbo-imag1541.jpg  


Last edited by GTO : 2nd May 2014 at 13:12. Reason: Typo
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Old 2nd May 2014, 02:31   #2
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashvar87 View Post
Dear Friends,
I am starting up this project mainly to soup up the cute little MG410W which is getting neglected nowadays due to lower break horse power. My aim is to turbo charge my stock MG410W and bring the best figures and performance out of it.
I'm sure this would be a good learning curve, Cheers I'm glued to this thread. Here this might help you http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...psy-rally.html (A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally)
and hey there was another pertol head who had his M800 turbo'd. Maybe you should get connected to these guys to work

A STUPID question, what is the amount of torque that you plan to increase in the 1000 cc engine? Say max of 15 BHP?? So from 45 BHp to 60 BHP or 65?

Instead of that an engine conversion would have been a better option right? 16-Valve MPFI G13BB engine would have power increased to 80 bhp (60 kW; 81 PS) and better off than the carburetor version right..

I believe you would be spending the same amount in time and money on this compared to an engine conversion.
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Old 2nd May 2014, 13:19   #3
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

Good luck with the project! Since you've already bought the parts, there's no turning back, although I'd agree with Twinn on his 1.3L MPFI suggestion.

Road use or offroad? If it's the latter, keep turbo-lag at the bare minimum (even if it's at the cost of lesser outright power).

Some other threads that you might find helpful:

1 (Turbo charged Street Gypsy - project of the month)

2 (Supercharged Maruti Gypsy)

3 (Turbos on Indian off-road vehicles)
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Old 2nd May 2014, 17:22   #4
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Good luck with the project! Since you've already bought the parts, there's no turning back, although I'd agree with Twinn on his 1.3L MPFI suggestion.

Road use or offroad? If it's the latter, keep turbo-lag at the bare minimum (even if it's at the cost of lesser outright power).

Some other threads that you might find helpful:

1 (Turbo charged Street Gypsy - project of the month)

2 (Supercharged Maruti Gypsy)

3 (Turbos on Indian off-road vehicles)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinn View Post
I'm sure this would be a good learning curve, Cheers I'm glued to this thread. Here this might help you http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...psy-rally.html (A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally)
and hey there was another pertol head who had his M800 turbo'd. Maybe you should get connected to these guys to work

A STUPID question, what is the amount of torque that you plan to increase in the 1000 cc engine? Say max of 15 BHP?? So from 45 BHp to 60 BHP or 65?

Instead of that an engine conversion would have been a better option right? 16-Valve MPFI G13BB engine would have power increased to 80 bhp (60 kW; 81 PS) and better off than the carburetor version right..

I believe you would be spending the same amount in time and money on this compared to an engine conversion.
Thank you GTO and Twinn for you support and wishes. Actually I am already done with G16B on a gypsy and my Ex-410W 1Ltr with 5 speed King Gearbox. But still my love for the peppy, cute little 1Ltr Gypsy, kindles me to push the stock 410 even further. I really love the close ratio GB to drive around. I am sure I will bring the best out of a stock 410.

I am very well aware that, it is better and less complex to TC a mpfi engine compared with a carburetor engine. But that is going to be my challenge. This 410 will be used only for fun and offroading(Not for competitive events). And as far as my project is concerned, it will be much cheaper on budget, when compared with a G13B swap or any other engine swap. On the whole this project will be a budget friendly one, without compromising the performance and last but not the least, a good justice for a 410.

Regarding the power output, I am planning for a dyno run, once the project is done. Till that I cannot exactly tell anything on that part.

Will be posting some photos tonight, of today's work.

Thank you.
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Old 3rd May 2014, 15:05   #5
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

Updates,
Yesterday we completed all the major fabrication works, which included fixing the BOV, Exhaust pipes, Carburetor suction cap, TC oil hose plumbing and fixing all the hoses.

Parallel to fabrication work, we started overhauling the carburetor with new jets and packings. We overhauled the carburetor to stock settings, as I wanted to know how the engine behaves with turbo boost in the stock set-up. I want things to be set righted in every phase, so going step by step, starting from stock tuning level and optimizing till we get the desired output.

It almost took a complete day to hook up all these things completely. In the mean time, the parts stockist sent us a wrong packing kit, so we were not able to fix the oil sump yesterday. But for the packing kit, we made sure that everything is fixed up and ready to start once the packing is fixed. Got the packing kit only by today morning.

After fixing the packing, we cranked the engine finally and realised some leaks in the header(which was expected). So again we had to remove the header and re-fix all the leaks. Work is still progressing and we will get back by evening for sure. Since there was a leak in the header, we could not actually gauge things.

Will update status once we fix up the leak and crank the engine again.

Thank you.
Attached Thumbnails
Project MG410W Turbo-imag1552.jpg  

Project MG410W Turbo-imag1553.jpg  

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Old 4th May 2014, 23:10   #6
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

Updates,
We made sure that there is no more leaks, double checked everything and we finally cranked the engine, everything was fine with no leaks anywhere.

The waste gate actuator pressure was set at 9Psi.
Project MG410W Turbo-imag1532.jpg
At idling speed, till 1000Rpm, the engine behaved very normal in stock settings, there after it suffocates and asks for more fuel. But for that there was no other problems.

So our first hurdle was to encounter the insufficient fuel supply during the turbo boost. We took a quick decision to modify the throttle body functioning. In stock carburetor, the secondary butterfly opens only when the engine boost pressure reaches a threshold value. But we made the secondary butterfly to open up mechanically at 1000Rpm while throttling. So more fuel and better breathing during the turbo boost. Engine actually worked well with no issues when parked and revved with higher boosts.

So we decided to take the vehicle for a spin, I was bit fingers crossed. Now we encountered the next problem. Engine behaved well at lower Rpm but started struggling with insufficient fuel, even with both the butterflies opened up.

We added an electronic fuel pump and took a spin, result was same with fuel riching problem at idling.

Tomorrow we are planning to incorporate another stuff, which I will let you know with some pictures. More updates to follow. Will keep updated.

Thank you
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Old 5th May 2014, 15:25   #7
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashvar87 View Post
We took a quick decision to modify the throttle body functioning. In stock carburetor, the secondary butterfly opens only when the engine boost pressure reaches a threshold value.

But we made the secondary butterfly to open up mechanically at 1000Rpm while throttling.
The 2nd line made me go - this is Exactly what my mech said he will do on my M800-AT (for some reason I dont recollect), I said better leave it alone and will revisit if really needed. Can you post some pics on how did you connect/operate the 2nd butterfly specifically?
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Old 6th May 2014, 20:51   #8
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

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Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
The 2nd line made me go - this is Exactly what my mech said he will do on my M800-AT (for some reason I dont recollect), I said better leave it alone and will revisit if really needed. Can you post some pics on how did you connect/operate the 2nd butterfly specifically?
Dear Santhosh,
Sure bro, will post some clear pictures for you. But before you do that, make sure it is done properly, as it requires welding of a new lever, which may damage your carburetor internals. And there will be a drop in mileage due to premature opening of second butterfly.

Project Updates,
Things are moving on smoothly and I will be updating some positive results tomorrow

Dear Moderator,
The successive posting happened when I had a power cut here. So kindly delete my other posting. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Thank you.

Last edited by ashvar87 : 6th May 2014 at 21:01. Reason: To remove my successive posting
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Old 7th May 2014, 13:18   #9
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashvar87 View Post
So we decided to take the vehicle for a spin, I was bit fingers crossed. Now we encountered the next problem. Engine behaved well at lower Rpm but started struggling with insufficient fuel, even with both the butterflies opened up.

We added an electronic fuel pump and took a spin, result was same with fuel riching problem at idling.
You need a "boost" referenced 1:1 fuel pressure regulator and a fuel pump from any mpfi car (with new fuel lines and high pressure rubber hoses)

You have to set the fuel pressure to a low value at idle. As the boost increases the fuel pressure would also increase by the same value. The FPR will ensure that your fuel pressure will always be higher than the pressure of air entering your carburettor thus "working" as intended ! You also might have to modify your carburettor for the perfect setup. (Mallory 4307M is one such FPR)

I'd recommend reading the book "turbocharges" by hugh macinnes as he has an excellent coverage of installing turbos with carbs
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Old 7th May 2014, 13:40   #10
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

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Originally Posted by techn0l0gist View Post
You need a "boost" referenced 1:1 fuel pressure regulator and a fuel pump from any mpfi car (with new fuel lines and high pressure rubber hoses)

You have to set the fuel pressure to a low value at idle. As the boost increases the fuel pressure would also increase by the same value. The FPR will ensure that your fuel pressure will always be higher than the pressure of air entering your carburettor thus "working" as intended ! You also might have to modify your carburettor for the perfect setup. (Mallory 4307M is one such FPR)

I'd recommend reading the book "turbocharges" by hugh macinnes as he has an excellent coverage of installing turbos with carbs
Thank you for your valuable inputs friend. I am exactly in the same process now, on top of that I am doing a additional modification which I will update once it is done. I got hold of Sard FPR with gauge. Cheers.

Thank you.

Last edited by ashvar87 : 7th May 2014 at 13:43. Reason: typo
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Old 7th May 2014, 23:57   #11
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

Updates,
After lot of trial and errors with the carburetor, we finally achieved our baseline settings. On top of the carburetor, we decided to add an injector to support higher boosts.

All we did is, made the carburetor function with a baseline setting, just above the stock settings and a injector to support the turbo boost, both supported by an electronic pump(non - mpfi pump).

We made the injector to start working at 1000Rpm and the same will not work below 1000Rpm, we have used a spring loaded switch connected with throttle, to on/off the injector.

As I told in my previous posts that I am going step by step and will analyse how the engine reacts in every phase of upgrade, I did not add a mpfi pressure pump and a FPR as of now.

So with this set-up we have almost achieved our baseline settings, we took for a spin and I could say it was "WOW" till 80kmph. Turbo started to kick in from the very throttle and not to forget the BOV pressure release sound, it was an awesome drive. Beyond 80Kmph, engine suffocates and asks for more fuel. So its time for mpfi pressure pump and Sard FPR to come in.

There was one more expected issue which popped up after a harsh drive, carburetor flooding at higher and harsh turbo boost. This was primarily because of the tiny air holes in the carburetor, which gets disrupted, when the turbo surges into the carburetor. The air holes disruption issue will be sorted out tomorrow, planning for a minor modification in the carburetor. I will post the details of the modification by tomorrow.

Here are some pictures with the injector.

Project MG410W Turbo-imag1561.jpg
Project MG410W Turbo-imag1562.jpg

@Santhosh, here is a picture requested by you.
Project MG410W Turbo-imag156-2.jpg

I could not take a video as it was dark, will take a video by morning and will share the same. To look at the pictures it may look butch now, after the final touches, I will be concentrating more on engine detailing. Cheers.

Thank you.
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Old 8th May 2014, 12:50   #12
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

Dear Friends,
Here is a short video for you all.



Thank you.

Last edited by ashvar87 : 8th May 2014 at 12:53. Reason: Embedding problem
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Old 8th May 2014, 16:39   #13
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

Instead of trying to do hit and trial with the stock carb, would it not be better to try and find a better carburetor from a bigger engine which is designed for more fuel to the engine. The more modifications you keep doing, the more failure points you introduce.
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Old 9th May 2014, 13:59   #14
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

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Instead of trying to do hit and trial with the stock carb, would it not be better to try and find a better carburetor from a bigger engine which is designed for more fuel to the engine. The more modifications you keep doing, the more failure points you introduce.
Dear tsk1979,
In this scenario, it is not about the size of the carburetor, it is all about making the carburetor compatible with a turbo charger and to make it handle higher boosts. Any stock carburetor by default cannot handle the sudden turbo surge, but a well tuned stock carburetor with some basic modifications to handle turbo boost will make the system perfect. In my system, I have already ruled out the OE gypsy carburetor and upgraded to Esteem, since gypsy carburetor is a single butterfly carburetor.

And the trial and error which I meant is, all about jetting the carburetor with different sizes of jets to know how the engine behaves with different jetting. And regarding the modifications, I have not done anything complex by changing the dimensions or modifying any internals of carburetor.

All I have done is, made the second butterfly work mechanically, and now I have added a breather for air holes in carburetor. So, with this, the baseline system is perfect to handle a turbo charger, and I can very well claim this to be a reliable set-up, since there is nothing to fail. Hope this clarifies your doubt.

Updates,

As I have told in my previous post regarding the carburetor flooding, we have completely re-solved this issue by adding a breather pipe for the carburetor. Without the breather pipe, when turbo surges into the carburetor, it disrupts the functioning of float, resulting in carburetor flooding. With our breather technique, flooding issue is completely solved.

We took the vehicle for a 30km drive and I could say that, engine is very stable, without any issues even with harsh driving.

Next step will be adding a mpfi pump and the FPR. Will keep updated friends.

Thank you.
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Old 9th May 2014, 14:57   #15
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Default Re: Project MG410W Turbo

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Originally Posted by ashvar87 View Post
..... regarding the carburetor flooding, we have completely resolved this issue by adding a breather pipe for the carburetor...
Pics please. Krishnagiri mechanic?
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