Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > 4x4 & Off-Roading > 4x4 Technical


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 26th November 2014, 20:57   #61
BHPian
 
ringoism's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Himachal
Posts: 561
Thanked: 1,517 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Gutfeel time again: The issue is not lag, but that there is an rpm band between idle and turbo coming on song, which corresponds to actual practically needed road speeds. In this rpm band, there will be no boost, no matter how long one waits.
I agree that this is the main issue... though I'm sure that even above that rpm, lag is there to some degree, exacerbating the overall problem. Lack of response would be a combination of both factors in most cases; I'm pretty sure I've read technical materials related to - and have definitely experienced - the increase in lag caused by additional intercooler volume, plumbing, etc.

By the way, have my Kolkata dates - will PM you.

Thanks,
Eric
ringoism is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2014, 21:08   #62
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NH209
Posts: 1,616
Thanked: 716 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Gutfeel time again: The issue is not lag, but that there is an rpm band between idle and turbo coming on
removing the catalytic converter and providing for earlier additional fueling(remap) will reduce this rpm band.. no?
ramzsys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2014, 22:29   #63
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calcutta
Posts: 3,638
Thanked: 2,407 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
By the way, have my Kolkata dates - will PM you.
Great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzsys View Post
removing the catalytic converter and providing for earlier additional fueling(remap) will reduce this rpm band.. no?
Not really. Almost fully related to the size/ design of the turbo.

Regards
Sutripta
Sutripta is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2014, 22:51   #64
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,510
Thanked: 9,025 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post

Not really. Almost fully related to the size/ design of the turbo.

Agree, as a rule of thumb, removing the cat on a normally aspirated engine might give you 3-4% extra power and typically you will find it improves the low rev pick up. On turbo charged engines the improvement in the low rev band is minimal. I have removed the cat on my NA Alfa Romeo and its very noticeable.

Of coursem removing the cat might also mean you could be violating some environmental rules/laws. BTW on my Spider it happens to perfectly legal under Dutch law.

Jeroen
Jeroen is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2018, 09:35   #65
Senior - BHPian
 
DirtyDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dharamsala
Posts: 1,829
Thanked: 776 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Dusting off this old thread. My 2013 Thar has just turned the 1lahk point. I still have the wiper problems, it still goes thru ball joints and tie rods kind of fast..but not bad. I have put two clutch plates into it and, finally, a whole new clutch complete with throw out bearing and sundry plastic hydrolic parts (This was not too bad $$$$-wise) and that finally took care of my hinky clutch.

For the money it hasn't been bad for my use. Bad roading and trekking up into Ladahk and the deep mountains. It handles beautifully on the road and in tight traffic.

Recently I had a mechanic disconnect the EGR. I don't keep a spare dynamometer out back any more so I can't give technical stats. But I have got some steep freaking hills here that I traverse regularly. My seat-of-pants meter tells me I got maybe 6-9 more HP from that move. Going up the steep ones is much easier.

Now, of course I hooked the EGR right back up, right? I am a good citizen...of someplace.
And I am not recommending that Thar owners disconnect theirs...that would be illegal and neither I nor Team-BHP would condone any member doing illegal stuff....I have wondered if the the environmental impact of auto manufacturer's making EGR valves and systems isn't worse than the problem they are supposed to solve. And that maybe the whole EGR bit isn't just "feel good" mindless legislation. Just a question that I have no answer to.
DirtyDan is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2018, 10:35   #66
Distinguished - BHPian
 
dhanushs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bathery/BLR
Posts: 3,522
Thanked: 4,507 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
...My seat-of-pants meter tells me I got maybe 6-9 more HP from that move. Going up the steep ones is much easier.

..
There is a sensor on top of the air filter, the Air Mass Sensor. Disconnect it and you will feel a tremendous difference if living in a hilly area with lesser than average air density.

AFAIK, the job of the sensor is to reduce the fueling when the air mass reduces, to avoid fueling to be rich and avoid smoke. With that removed, fuelling will run in the richest setting.
dhanushs is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2018, 08:12   #67
BHPian
 
The King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: JALANDHAR
Posts: 46
Thanked: 18 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
There is a sensor on top of the air filter, the Air Mass Sensor. Disconnect it and you will feel a tremendous difference if living in a hilly area with lesser than average air density.

AFAIK, the job of the sensor is to reduce the fueling when the air mass reduces, to avoid fueling to be rich and avoid smoke. With that removed, fuelling will run in the richest setting.
I am right now stranded somewhere near Tabo. Might give this mod a definitive try to see, if the things improve or not.

Starting from a stand still traffic on steep hills just outside of Shimla was quite problamatic for the Thar. Low end grunt is missing and I was put to shame by another Mahindra pickup which crossed me, loaded fully with cement bags, effortlessly.

Last edited by The King : 3rd June 2018 at 08:17.
The King is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2018, 14:30   #68
BHPian
 
The King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: JALANDHAR
Posts: 46
Thanked: 18 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
There is a sensor on top of the air filter, the Air Mass Sensor. Disconnect it and you will feel a tremendous difference if living in a hilly area with lesser than average air density.

AFAIK, the job of the sensor is to reduce the fueling when the air mass reduces, to avoid fueling to be rich and avoid smoke. With that removed, fuelling will run in the richest setting.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The King View Post
I am right now stranded somewhere near Tabo. Might give this mod a definitive try to see, if the things improve or not.
Yes, confirmed..!

Huge boost at low rpm torque

Last edited by The King : 4th June 2018 at 14:31.
The King is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2018, 15:04   #69
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,510
Thanked: 9,025 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by The King View Post
Huge boost at low rpm torque
Sure, but I would be very cautious running any engine with the air mass sensor disabled. It is likely to be running rich (or lean actually depending on the exacti conditons). No matter what it will not do your engine any good, especially in hilly country where you are likely to put relative high load on the engine.

running rich will lead to coking up of your engine. Worse, it might also to problems with piston/cylinder lubrication and thus increased wear.
Jeroen is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2018, 22:45   #70
BHPian
 
The King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: JALANDHAR
Posts: 46
Thanked: 18 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Sure, but I would be very cautious running any engine with the air mass sensor disabled. It is likely to be running rich (or lean actually depending on the exacti conditons). No matter what it will not do your engine any good, especially in hilly country where you are likely to put relative high load on the engine.

running rich will lead to coking up of your engine. Worse, it might also to problems with piston/cylinder lubrication and thus increased wear.
Agreed, but when you see a K10 Alto full of five people crosses you like a breeze on steep hill traffic, you have no other option left to save your.....Thar
The King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th June 2018, 09:33   #71
BHPian
 
ashishy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: MH02
Posts: 151
Thanked: 58 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

How does it matter if Alto or Mahindra pickup is overtaking a Thar? They are locals and have every right, experience and talent to overtake tourist. You cannot match their know how. I would never hurt engine of my car and thus my pocket just to prove a notion that other cars cannot overtake "my thar"
ashishy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th June 2018, 10:10   #72
Distinguished - BHPian
 
dhanushs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bathery/BLR
Posts: 3,522
Thanked: 4,507 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post

running rich will lead to coking up of your engine. Worse, it might also to problems with piston/cylinder lubrication and thus increased wear.
You are right. Running rich isnt helpful to the engine.

However, not all, but, most of the (re)maps run rich maps. Also, olden days, most of the non CRDe engines pumps were/are tweaked up to haul loads.

In the Thar CRDe I personally know an engine running with disconnected Air Mass doing well even after 1.2lacs kms.

Not saying its recommended, but, for a quick fix of power, you can do that.
dhanushs is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 5th June 2018, 11:25   #73
Senior - BHPian
 
DirtyDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dharamsala
Posts: 1,829
Thanked: 776 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
You are right. Running rich isnt helpful to the engine.

However, not all, but, most of the (re)maps run rich maps. Also, olden days, most of the non CRDe engines pumps were/are tweaked up to haul loads.

In the Thar CRDe I personally know an engine running with disconnected Air Mass doing well even after 1.2lacs kms.

Not saying its recommended, but, for a quick fix of power, you can do that.
I am going to try this soon. I have yet to find a clearly reputable re-map shop anywhere near me. I'd like to try that. I will soldier on along that route.

A question for you, Dhanushs. Behram at one point said to just plonk in a 2.6L. He says it's a bolt in propostion since the OE Thar CRDe engine is derived from the 2.6

What do you think about this? Would the gain over the OE engine be considerable? I would also have to pick up the 2.6L ECU I suppose. I am willing to put some money into this to get a vehicle that will perform. Thar does many things well but the lack of low end grunt is a pain in the..nether regions.

Very possibly I won't find a pristine 2.6L motor and/or a good shop to do the swap in any case.
DirtyDan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th June 2018, 15:10   #74
BHPian
 
The King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: JALANDHAR
Posts: 46
Thanked: 18 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashishy View Post
How does it matter if Alto or Mahindra pickup is overtaking a Thar? They are locals and have every right, experience and talent to overtake tourist. You cannot match their know how. I would never hurt engine of my car and thus my pocket just to prove a notion that other cars cannot overtake "my thar"
It's not about overtaking or experience, it's about that the Thar is Stalling and requires too much clutch slippage to push it further. No one is competing in drag race, it's just the stand still start performance on steep hills is alot poor that even an Alto can manage very easily.
The King is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 5th June 2018, 21:38   #75
Senior - BHPian
 
DirtyDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dharamsala
Posts: 1,829
Thanked: 776 Times
Default Re: Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by The King View Post
It's not about overtaking or experience, it's about that the Thar is Stalling and requires too much clutch slippage to push it further. No one is competing in drag race, it's just the stand still start performance on steep hills is alot poor that even an Alto can manage very easily.
Exactly right. It is sometimes dangerous to even pull out from a feeder road onto a busy road because the Thar is so accursedly slow off the line. You either burn the clutch or you sit and wait like your dear ole aunt Pooballah.
DirtyDan is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2011 i10 Asta A/T - its Korean, its new, its fast, its red, and its coming. nirupesh Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports 1 8th January 2011 10:45
Same issue - opposite effects on low end torque Jeep Technical Stuff 6 26th June 2008 13:38
Increase Low end torque in Swift Petrol pshyamsundar Modifications & Accessories 5 4th April 2007 12:30
Mod for low end torque in Swift talk2anand Technical Stuff 34 31st October 2006 10:20
giving the Swift some low end torque and fatter wheels theEnd Modifications & Accessories 14 21st November 2005 19:07


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 08:00.

Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks