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Old 11th January 2017, 08:47   #1
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Default Gypsy: 4x4 lever vibrating in 1st gear

Fellow Gypsy lovers (especially the new owners),

As some of you may be aware I have bought a brand new Gypsy in January 2016. The car has done about 1,000 kilometers so far.

I was going through my notes of last trip back home & there’s one issue that I wanted to bring to your attention. Any guidance that may result in the resolution of the problem (ostensibly that's what it seems like at the moment) will be highly appreciated.

About three weeks ago I was driving to a temple which is located about 25 kilometers from Shimla. The road leading up to the temple is very steep and you can negotiate the incline only in the 1st gear. As soon as I engaged the 1st gear (I was using about 1/3rd throttle, I noticed the 4 WD lever is vibrating, there was a particularly steep incline and I increased the throttle to about half & I noticed that the 4WD lever is shaking violently now.

Please note that at no point while driving up this steep narrow road had I engaged 4H or 4L.

This was very disconcerting. Once I reached the top of the hill I parked the vehicle and engaged/disengaged the 4H/4L/N and slotted the lever back to 2H, hoping that everything will be okay. While going back downhill I descended using 1st/2nd gear to make use of engine braking. Unfortunately by the time I started my drive back it was dark and this road is very narrow with a number of switchbacks and therefore I do not distinctly remember if the 4WD lever was still vibrating at the time I was going downhill.

During next couple of days while I was driving I paid close attention to this issue & noticed that:

• There is a hum/slight vibration in the 4WD lever in 3rd & 4th gear at moderate speeds
• In 2nd gear the vibration increases (again at moderate speeds)
• In 1st gear, the 4WD lever starts to shake somewhat (the speed in the 1st gear is usually low however as I increased the throttle the shaking also increased likewise)

I brought this issue to the attention to the service manager of the local dealer and I was surprised to find that this issue had been raised by a number of Gypsy owners in last few months. He in fact showed me a video with the 4WD lever shaking violently that he himself had shot in brand new Gypsy that was awaiting delivery in the showroom.

He then called the technical focal of Maruti Suzuki based out of their Chandigarh Regional office on his phone and offered me to have a word with him directly. This gentleman then told me that this issue has been reported widely for most of the new Gypsys sold and that he has filed a technical report with the relevant folks at the plant and is awaiting resolution.

From whatever I understand about Gypsy transfer case, there is a mechanical linkage (and not a cable) between the 4WD lever and the transfer case which itself is mounted on the chassis and whatever vibration is being generated by the main transmission/engine is being somehow (via this mechanical linkage) transferred to the 4WD lever. However I have driven a number of different Gypsys (410/410W/413W) over the years and I just cannot recall having observed such an issue ever.

I would request you (especially the folks who have purchased the vehicle in last couple of years) whether you have observed a similar issue in your Gypsys and if yes then how have you tried to resolve this issue and with what results?

Thank you very much for your time.

Last edited by Vikram Arya : 11th January 2017 at 08:53.
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Old 11th January 2017, 09:33   #2
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Default re: Gypsy: 4x4 lever vibrating in 1st gear

This is not nice to read at all.

Cool_Dube you'd better check this out fast on your Gyp too.

Mine is an old beast (2002 Mpfi) - it works perfectly in 2H, 4H and 4L. When I lock the Freewheeling Hubs it has the "juice" to go anywhere at all...

No vibration from the 4WD lever while driving in general. No vibration even from the main gear selector lever either - even though it is an old Gypsy.

In any case I cannot drive the Gypsy at super high speeds and nor do I want to - happy rumbling around at 30-40-50-60-70-80 Kmh max...

And this 4WD vibration thingy is something I have never seen, even in my old 1988 Narrow Track MG410 Soft top and the later one I had, the 1995 Wide Track MG410W Hardtop.

Last edited by shankar.balan : 11th January 2017 at 09:34.
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Old 11th January 2017, 12:24   #3
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Default re: Gypsy: 4x4 lever vibrating in 1st gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Arya View Post
There is a hum/slight vibration in the 4WD lever in 3rd & 4th gear at moderate speeds
Hum is not very comforting to know, but is it during more of lugging speeds? Does the sound goes off as speed climbs?

Quote:
From whatever I understand about Gypsy transfer case, there is a mechanical linkage (and not a cable) between the 4WD lever and the transfer case
Yes.

Quote:
I would request you (especially the folks who have purchased the vehicle in last couple of years) whether you have observed a similar issue in your Gypsys and if yes then how have you tried to resolve this issue and with what results?
Been a while for me and new gypsies, but not noticed heavy vibration even otherwise, unless a mount has gone bad. If you can arrange for a video, it would be easier to comment.

Minor vibrations, rather transmission movements on gypsy TC lever is possible.
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Old 11th January 2017, 13:01   #4
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Default re: Gypsy: 4x4 lever vibrating in 1st gear

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
..unless a mount has gone bad. If you can arrange for a video, it would be easier to comment.
Not an expert or anywhere close to that but mount going bad sounds probable reason.

I don't think Maruti is producing Gypsy regularly and this one may not be a fresh one from the factory (when bought).
Factory yards are mostly open grounds. With prolong heat and moisture mounting joints can surely go bad.
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Old 12th January 2017, 05:17   #5
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Default Re: Gypsy: 4x4 lever vibrating in 1st gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Hum is not very comforting to know, but is it during more of lugging speeds? Does the sound goes off as speed climbs?

Been a while for me and new gypsies, but not noticed heavy vibration even otherwise, unless a mount has gone bad. If you can arrange for a video, it would be easier to comment.

Minor vibrations, rather transmission movements on gypsy TC lever is possible.
Jaggu,

This is not happening at lugging speeds (lugging a brand new engine or for that matter any engine would be criminal in my rule book anyway). Typically it the main shift stick that will vibrate at lugging speeds. This is happening in lower gears (2nd/1st) and vibration increases as the speed increases.

I will see if I can arrange a video for your observation. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudra Sen View Post
Not an expert or anywhere close to that but mount going bad sounds probable reason.

I don't think Maruti is producing Gypsy regularly and this one may not be a fresh one from the factory (when bought).
Factory yards are mostly open grounds. With prolong heat and moisture mounting joints can surely go bad.
Rudra,

I tracked this vehicle from the plant (don't ask me how) right after I deposited the booking amount. It came from a lot that was under production at that time so it was fresh off the line.

Additionally as I've mentioned in my post this issue has been reported in a number of Gypsys in last one year (as per the dealer) so this is not the only one afflicted with this condition. However your observation is well taken and I will get the TC mounting checked at the earliest possible date. Thank you.



In search of the solution I was surfing the net and came upon a number of posts at various Toyota and Suzuki forums discussing the same issue affecting Suzuki Samurais, Sidekicks and Toyota 4 Runners & FJ Cruisers as well. Many of the owners are terming this vibration as normal so looks like I'm not alone here.

I will be following up with MS (I'm not holding my breath) and report back the findings.

Thank you for your feedback. Please continue to provide your comments.

Last edited by Vikram Arya : 12th January 2017 at 05:19.
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Old 12th January 2017, 11:23   #6
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Default Re: Gypsy: 4x4 lever vibrating in 1st gear

My Jeep's 4x4 lever does the shake & dance all the time. It's linked directly to the transfer case. All important components of the drivetrain have rubber mounts and they will shake as the torque transfers. That's probably why you notice it in the 1st gear more than anything else. It'll keep dancing as you press / release the accelerator.

This isn't something I'd worry about. Of course, if it's more than in other Gypsies, check the mounts / linkages. But there's no 4x4 I've driven that doesn't have some shake / vibration from the 4x4 lever.

In nearly all body-on-frame UVs, you'll also see the gear lever exhibit a similar movement / vibration. Same reasons.
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Old 12th January 2017, 13:01   #7
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Default Re: Gypsy: 4x4 lever vibrating in 1st gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Arya View Post

As soon as I engaged the 1st gear (I was using about 1/3rd throttle, I noticed the 4 WD lever is vibrating, there was a particularly steep incline and I increased the throttle to about half & I noticed that the 4WD lever is shaking violently now.

Please note that at no point while driving up this steep narrow road had I engaged 4H or 4L.
I am wondering if this is something as simple as a production line oversight. Maybe the whole transfer case or tranny or...something, e.g. engine mounts...are loose, never having been properly torqued upon build....just spit balling here. Maybe a shade tree mech can go under there with a wrench and see if anything is loose. If so, tighten. Then maybe have the dealer tighten things to spec with torque wrenches. And check the rubber mounts..and the motor mounts. Do you hear any unusual vibrations, noises? Or, it may be a proximal cause, a loose t-case lever...a loose T-case.

Last edited by DirtyDan : 12th January 2017 at 13:04. Reason: am stupid
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Old 12th January 2017, 19:03   #8
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Default Re: Gypsy: 4x4 lever vibrating in 1st gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Arya View Post
(lugging a brand new engine or for that matter any engine would be criminal in my rule book anyway). Typically it the main shift stick that will vibrate at lugging speeds. This is happening in lower gears (2nd/1st) and vibration increases as the speed increases.

I will see if I can arrange a video for your observation.
Was double checking, will await for the video. Please keep in mind Gypsy is not the super refined vehicle in lot of aspects, so it might be normal and none of us would have even bothered to observe.

Gypsy mounts are weak links, but that is kept that way so that it gives away before harm happens to the TC or GB. Also if the mounts are cut, it would make serious thud thud sound when you load the tranny or release the pedal from load.
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Old 12th January 2017, 21:06   #9
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Default Re: Gypsy: 4x4 lever vibrating in 1st gear

Gypsy has a divorced TC.

Is it a buzz (low amplitude, relatively high freq), or a 'its about to come apart' violent shake and rattle?

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 13th January 2017, 07:13   #10
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Default Re: Gypsy: 4x4 lever vibrating in 1st gear

I somehow don't buy this statement that this vibration is normal.

In my (albeit Limited) experience, this is NOT normal at all.

The only Jeep in which I have observed the Gear Lever (not the 4WD lever) to vibrate, in the last 30 years, is the old Blue Jeep CJ500 Mahindra High Bonnet (3 forward gears and 1 reverse) that we had on the Estate where we lived, when I was growing up and on which I learned the rudiments of 4WD driving. However, I know that in that Jeep the transmission cones were somewhat worn down with some years of hard use on the estate, including towing jobs. Plus it was driven by a succession of drivers, some of whom may have mistreated the poor thing when we weren't there to supervise them.

The subsequent MM540's and MM550 DP's which my Dad had and used on various estates (and there were many of these and all of them had 4WD) as well as the three 4WD Gypsys I have personally owned since then, have never ever caused this type of vibration either in the gear levers or in the 4WD levers. And I have been driven in, and personally driven these vehicles in all sorts of places in the hills (Ooty, Coorg, Chikmagalur) and in the Bangalore soft road muddy swamps and similar places in both 2WD and 4WD mode.

Hence, I would take the offending Gypsy straight to the workshop and have it thoroughly checked up, to rule out any evils or ills that may have befallen it.

Im not being an alarmist, but I wouldn't dismiss this so lightly...

And my friend Mr Cool_Dube, you'd better check your Brand new Gypsy too!
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Old 15th January 2017, 01:25   #11
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Default Re: Gypsy: 4x4 lever vibrating in 1st gear

Thank you gentlemen for your detailed feedback; appreciate your time very much.

It has given me some idea as to what might be wrong here and this will be my top priority on my next trip to India.

I partly agree with the sentiment expressed here that this might have something to do with the negligent assembly/tightening of a critical component of the transfer case on the assembly line however for the same problem to have arisen in a large number of brand new Gypsys in last few months tells me that there is more at play here.

I am trying to get hold of a video which was shot by the service manager in a new Gyspsy which was awaiting delivery at the show-room and that will amply illustrate what exactly I'm talking about.
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Old 15th January 2017, 14:13   #12
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Default Re: Gypsy: 4x4 lever vibrating in 1st gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Arya View Post
Thank you gentlemen for your detailed feedback; appreciate your time very much.

It has given me some idea as to what might be wrong here and this will be my top priority on my next trip to India.

I partly agree with the sentiment expressed here that this might have something to do with the negligent assembly/tightening of a critical component of the transfer case on the assembly line however for the same problem to have arisen in a large number of brand new Gypsys in last few months tells me that there is more at play here.

I am trying to get hold of a video which was shot by the service manager in a new Gyspsy which was awaiting delivery at the show-room and that will amply illustrate what exactly I'm talking about.
That the problem is repeated for a large number of Gypsys does not negate at all the possibility that it might be a production line problem. E.G. one that is repeated a number of times by a build crew that has not been properly trained.
This is rather common, in fact.

Another production-related possibility is that Maruti has received a bad batch of components. e.g. a bunch of bad TCs.

When the lever is shaking, put your hand on it tightly and see if your grip alone dampens the vibration, or if you can still feel the problem deeper thru the TC or other components, too.

Bottom line is...we dunno from what you have told us
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Old 16th January 2017, 14:12   #13
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Default Divorced Transfer Case

Hi Vikramarya,

The MG Gypsy series have a divorced transfercase i.e the Transfer Case is coupled to the Main Gearbox by a Propeller Shaft.

Please check the following

1) Have you forced the 4WD lever to engage 2H to 4H/4Lo

2) Oil Level in the Transfer Case

3) Transfer Case and Gearbox Mounts

4) Front & Rear Propeller Shafts for and damage/dent etc


Regards,

Arka
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Old 17th January 2017, 05:46   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Vikramarya,

The MG Gypsy series have a divorced transfercase i.e the Transfer Case is coupled to the Main Gearbox by a Propeller Shaft.

Please check the following

1) Have you forced the 4WD lever to engage 2H to 4H/4Lo

2) Oil Level in the Transfer Case

3) Transfer Case and Gearbox Mounts

4) Front & Rear Propeller Shafts for and damage/dent etc


Regards,

Arka
Hi Arka,

1) 4H/4L has never been engaged on this vehicle.

2) Just a week before this issue was observed the vehicle was taken to the local dealer for the 2nd free service. The technician working on the vehicle did check the transmission oil level. I don't believe the oil level in the transfer case was checked.

3) Transfer case & gearbox mounts have not yet been checked.

4) This is highly unlikely as the vehicle has just over 1,000 clicks on the clock and has never left the pavement.

I would like to reiterate here that this vibration is observable only when you are driving in 1st/2nd gears with more than half the throttle and not at regular driving speeds.

I will make sure that the areas that you've mentioned are all checked when the vehicle is taken to the dealer for inspection.


An important update

Last evening my father received a call from the Regional Service Manager based out of Maruti Suzuki's Chandigarh Regional Office & he said that he will have a look at the vehicle himself in two weeks' time.

He further said that if they're unable to resolve the problem then he's going to get a person from the technical department at the Maruti Suzuki's Gurgaon plant to have a look at the vehicle.

I will provide an update post the RSM's inspection of the vehicle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
That the problem is repeated for a large number of Gypsys does not negate at all the possibility that it might be a production line problem. E.G. one that is repeated a number of times by a build crew that has not been properly trained.
This is rather common, in fact.

Another production-related possibility is that Maruti has received a bad batch of components. e.g. a bunch of bad TCs.

When the lever is shaking, put your hand on it tightly and see if your grip alone dampens the vibration, or if you can still feel the problem deeper thru the TC or other components, too.

Bottom line is...we dunno from what you have told us
Thank you DirtyDan.

I agree with you; there are quite a few possibilities here.
I did put my hand on the lever and it did dampen the vibrations quite a bit.

Let's see what this gentleman from MS has to say.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 17th January 2017 at 11:31.
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Old 18th January 2017, 16:39   #15
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Default Re: Gypsy: 4x4 lever vibrating in 1st gear

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
I somehow don't buy this statement that this vibration is normal.

In my (albeit Limited) experience, this is NOT normal at all.
I agree; never any such shakes in my 2009 car. Something needs attention.
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