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Old 20th July 2010, 01:08   #886
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lol The Wolf, have you seen jeep's (make it the same jeep) perform with better tires than NDMS? You don't have to think at all or research then.

As a well respected and very senior member once told me, "NDMS are very capable tires, but that doesn't make them the best of offroad tire technology'. That's all i have to say to your comments. Rest is for you to experience and am sure you will also see soon, how people are evolving away from NDMS and Sandgrips. Get my drift
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Old 20th July 2010, 09:04   #887
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Thanks , Adesh /Suv Pilot for the info. But do you know any dealer or some one who can get those tyres for me ?
Yours Sudarshan
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Old 20th July 2010, 10:58   #888
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Default Ndms

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
lol The Wolf, have you seen jeep's (make it the same jeep) perform with better tires than NDMS? You don't have to think at all or research then.

As a well respected and very senior member once told me, "NDMS are very capable tires, but that doesn't make them the best of offroad tire technology'. That's all i have to say to your comments. Rest is for you to experience and am sure you will also see soon, how people are evolving away from NDMS and Sandgrips. Get my drift
Hi Jaggu,

I went to AKC, with 7.00X16 NDMS on a MM540, I would have preferred 7.50X16.

The tread Pattern of the NDMS is still the best for MUD.

Besides most Evolve away from NDMS to change their tyres for LOOKS, the only sensible tyre upgrade was on Robinson's Invader 245-75-16.

Have you driven a CJ3B with 7.00X16 NDMS? compare it with a CJ3B with Maxxis Trepador 235-75-15 and you will see the difference.

However the newer Tyres are more versatile.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 20th July 2010, 11:24   #889
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
lol The Wolf, have you seen jeep's (make it the same jeep) perform with better tires than NDMS? You don't have to think at all or research then.
As I earlier said, involve yourself in scientific reasoning, that will supersede opinions and visuals. Let me explain, "Overall tire diameter + optimum pounds per square inch force on ground + deeper tread pattern + correct momentum and floatation" is what you need to overcome most wet/mushy obstacles. Now, do you think an AT/HT can beat the NDMS? If yes, which one and how? I'd like to understand it from scientific stand point.

I would not debate on highway performance and rock crawling with NDMS yet as I said its the contact patch and rubber compound that matters there. NDMS is a relatively skinny tyre and Im unsure of the compound stickiness of different NDMS brands like JK, MRF, Superking etc As far as my rock crawling experience is concerned with 7.00-16 Superkings @20psi, its been way beyond what I've read in Tbhp. I have had absolutely no issues on the asphalt too as of today, no the tyres havent locked up in the last 1 month even once. (I wouldnt mention its monsoon currently)

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As a well respected and very senior member once told me, "NDMS are very capable tires, but that doesn't make them the best of offroad tire technology'.
Neither did I dude, I never said they are the best off road technology, infact if you read carefully I said that here at Tbhp perceptions and opinions flow galore which cannot be approximated or mistaken as test of a particular technology. Unless products are tested fair and square under controlled test environments, scientifically, no one can be sure of one thing over other. I rely on scientific reasoning than "Opinions" I hope you are with me here...

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That's all i have to say to your comments. Rest is for you to experience and am sure you will also see soon, how people are evolving away from NDMS and Sandgrips. Get my drift
I dont wana get into one more debate bro, I seem to be observing things exactly opposite to what you have mentioned coz Im reading more and more people trying to get their hands on the Bullets, Sandgrips, NDMS which are so hard to procure these days. If you have a set of 7.00/7.50-16 NDMS, put it up for sale and see how quickly it will sell as against some dueler or Alanzos...provided the buyer is inclined towards pure off road usage.

Lastly, just to seal this conversation, people buy HT/AT to help them use their offroaders on tarmac (80% of agerage usage) effectively and not coz they perform better "Off The Road", now thats called using tire technology in your best favor and VFM conscience in my terms

Last edited by The Wolf : 20th July 2010 at 11:27.
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Old 20th July 2010, 12:44   #890
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I prefer an all rounder (as arka mentioned) rather than a specific tyre which has serious limitations on certain terrain. I have experienced this in my jeep as well as in Sree's 550. I drove Sree's jeep with Trepadors and it was miles ahead in behavior offroad and on road. With minimal fuss of needing air pressure changes and all.

For the kind of terrain we drive I feel Trepadors, Bighorns or Geo AT works best. Again this is my personal experience and observation.

Sandgrips the kind of pain we went through in Munnar was an eye opener. Viji can comment more on it. Jayesh with his superb driving skills managed the NDMS on the other hand. I wonder how easy it would have been for him had he run the vehicle on better tires.

Am not an expert and I would prefer better margin of error from the vehicle and hence I still go with my non scientific observations.

This is an age ol debate vs old and new school and I prefer to stick to scienntific advancement (whatever they had) that tyre companies managed to make. If not I prefer the Jalandhar tyres that DKG ran at EXAMM & AKC.

Accessing from phone so no time for research and all, but sure will try to read up on your valuable suggestions.
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Old 20th July 2010, 12:45   #891
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From what i have noticed with regards to NDMS is that they are good for slush that is ~4-5 inches deep. They cut through, find hard surface below and propel forward using the grooves as well. Any deeper slush and they are the first to sink compared to other broader tyres. In deeper slush, the mudzillas (highly deflated) work better IMO.
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Old 20th July 2010, 12:54   #892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
but sure will try to read up on your valuable suggestions.
Kindly post us common folks a gist of your understanding........
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Old 20th July 2010, 13:20   #893
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Default Mud Tyres

Hi Guys,

From my observation in the AKC/EXAMM event.

For CJ3B
1) 7.00X16 NDMS
2) Maxxis Trepador 235-75-15

For MM540
1) 7.50X16 NDMS or Good Year G90
2) Maxxis Big Horn 245-75-16
3) 7.00X16 NDMS though this is easily available, the circumference is not enough to adequately float the vehicle on soft surface.

The Sandgrip is a Sand Tyre and Good for Rocky conditions, and very poor in muddy condition.

I personally prefer a narrower tyre with Larger Circumference.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 20th July 2010, 13:35   #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
I prefer an all rounder (as arka mentioned) rather than a specific tyre which has serious limitations on certain terrain. I have experienced this in my jeep as well as in Sree's 550. I drove Sree's jeep with Trepadors and it was miles ahead in behavior offroad and on road. With minimal fuss of needing air pressure changes and all.
As I said, there is difference between an off road tyre and a multipurpose tyre. NDMSs are not too much of a multipurpose I reckon, but it suits my purpose so Im ok.

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
For the kind of terrain we drive I feel Trepadors, Bighorns or Geo AT works best. Again this is my personal experience and observation.
Agreed & Accepted but that wasnt the crux of the discussion, it rather was pure offroading context. Bringing in subjectivity will dilute the context and confuse us as well as the readers.

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Sandgrips the kind of pain we went through in Munnar was an eye opener. Viji can comment more on it. Jayesh with his superb driving skills managed the NDMS on the other hand. I wonder how easy it would have been for him had he run the vehicle on better tires.
Debatable, but not enough circumstantial evidence to start the discussion...LOL!

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Am not an expert and I would prefer better margin of error from the vehicle and hence I still go with my non scientific observations.
Shows. None of us are. Your approach is your baby, no one can challenge that.

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
This is an age ol debate vs old and new school and I prefer to stick to scienntific advancement (whatever they had) that tyre companies managed to make. If not I prefer the Jalandhar tyres that DKG ran at EXAMM & AKC.
Scientific advancement? Why using a 1950s hurricane? LOL

Yes, DKG could use those tires coz he didnt have to go cross country like Arka from Chennai to AKC spot...hehe! But yes, I doubt if there are too many options that will nuke his "old school" tractor tyres...add in the bang for the buck in it too!!!

Its too subjective bro, its not about old or new, its about what works and what doesnt, isnt it?

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Accessing from phone so no time for research and all, but sure will try to read up on your valuable suggestions.
Im glad if adds any value affirmatively =)

Last edited by The Wolf : 20th July 2010 at 13:36.
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Old 20th July 2010, 13:51   #895
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Guys,

From my observation in the AKC/EXAMM event.

For CJ3B
1) 7.00X16 NDMS
2) Maxxis Trepador 235-75-15

For MM540
1) 7.50X16 NDMS or Good Year G90
2) Maxxis Big Horn 245-75-16
3) 7.00X16 NDMS though this is easily available, the circumference is not enough to adequately float the vehicle on soft surface.

The Sandgrip is a Sand Tyre and Good for Rocky conditions, and very poor in muddy condition.

I personally prefer a narrower tyre with Larger Circumference.

Regards,

Arka
Hello Arka, Will you please explain why you have made a difference bet. CJ's & 540's ? any particular thing ?
This confused me Little
Yours Sudarshan

P.S. Much of your Openions are Flawless . ( Like a Lawyer who never loosess a Case )
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Old 20th July 2010, 14:24   #896
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Weight biggest issue for NDMS on MM's, I beleive is the differentiator why a wider tyre is recommended as against CJ's
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Old 20th July 2010, 14:26   #897
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Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Hello Arka, Will you please explain why you have made a difference bet. CJ's & 540's ? any particular thing ?
This confused me Little
Yours Sudarshan

P.S. Much of your Openions are Flawless . ( Like a Lawyer who never loosess a Case )
I am a bit free today so I will poke my nose a bit before Arka sir seals the case

@Sudarshan: The difference in tire selection for a CJ and a 540 will primarily be due to the the 500 additional kgs of a 540 plus the longer wheel base of a 540 which requires slightly taller tires to offset and gain better GC and ramp over clearance.
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Old 20th July 2010, 15:23   #898
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I am a bit free today so I will poke my nose a bit before Arka sir seals the case

@Sudarshan: The difference in tire selection for a CJ and a 540 will primarily be due to the the 500 additional kgs of a 540 plus the longer wheel base of a 540 which requires slightly taller tires to offset and gain better GC and ramp over clearance.
Hi, I wont mind you ' poking nose' as long as 'ARKA SIR' approves.
Anyways , jokes apart, but are you sure about the Weight Difference ?
I can understand the difference in wheelbase but I think 540 has a good angle of approach/attack then the CJ's
Correct me if I am wrong .
Also can you tell the exact weight difference ? ( while the 'encylopidia Sir ' is absent ! )
Yours Sudarshan

Last edited by Sudarshan : 20th July 2010 at 15:25.
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Old 20th July 2010, 16:03   #899
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Default Weight and ADR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Hello Arka, Will you please explain why you have made a difference bet. CJ's & 540's ? any particular thing ?
This confused me Little
Yours Sudarshan

P.S. Much of your Opinions are Flawless . ( Like a Lawyer who never loosess a Case )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Weight biggest issue for NDMS on MM's, I believe is the differentiator why a wider tyre is recommended as against CJ's
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
I am a bit free today so I will poke my nose a bit before Arka sir seals the case

@Sudarshan: The difference in tire selection for a CJ and a 540 will primarily be due to the the 500 additional kgs of a 540 plus the longer wheel base of a 540 which requires slightly taller tires to offset and gain better GC and ramp over clearance.
Dear SIRs,

All of you have contributed and effectively sealed the case tight, but since the query was directed to me, I will add.

The CJ3B and CJ500D weigh between 1050-1200Kgs
The MM540 is 1350Kgs-1500Kgs

The MM540 needs a taller tyre(bigger circumference) to improve it Ramp-Over-Angle and to Float it better.

While the Maxxis Trepadors 235-75-15 will work well on any Light 4x4 (Gypsy/CJ/MM540) in terms of traction and floatation.

But It does not improve the Ramp-Over Angle of the MM540.

The Ideal Size for a MM540 is 7.50X16 or 235-85-16 or 245-75-16.

Compared to a CJ3B the MM540 with the same engine is not that powerful, so the tyres have to be
carefully selected.

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by ex670c : 20th July 2010 at 16:17. Reason: typo
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Old 20th July 2010, 19:19   #900
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Dear SIRs,

All of you have contributed and effectively sealed the case tight, but since the query was directed to me, I will add.

The CJ3B and CJ500D weigh between 1050-1200Kgs
The MM540 is 1350Kgs-1500Kgs

The MM540 needs a taller tyre(bigger circumference) to improve it Ramp-Over-Angle and to Float it better.

While the Maxxis Trepadors 235-75-15 will work well on any Light 4x4 (Gypsy/CJ/MM540) in terms of traction and floatation.

But It does not improve the Ramp-Over Angle of the MM540.

The Ideal Size for a MM540 is 7.50X16 or 235-85-16 or 245-75-16.

Compared to a CJ3B the MM540 with the same engine is not that powerful, so the tyres have to be
carefully selected.

Regards,

Arka
So advocate Arka'ji, you mean to say that for a MM540 a 31inch or taller tyre is more suitable, right? Makes sense...

Floating or cutting through the mud/muck/slush/rut is the next big discussion??!! Specific tyres either cut better or float better depending on the vehicle weight, well the best of both worlds (correctly sized like trepadors/big horns or NDMS if available) is the final quest unless the target terrain is extremely specific which will help us decide whether to go for full time cutters or full time boggers.

As our off road vehicles more so have the limitation of going only as far as hub deep dont you think we stand a better chance with cutters with good tread pattern that aids paddling than the boggers. I am keeping rock crawling out of my context here currently so lets park that and move for now.

I am trying to take the tyre selection discussion one step ahead, trying to make it more specific to the terrain we normally dare during our OTRs excluding extremely unique obstacles.

p.s: Your OTR is primarily sandy, lets get to that in a bit, that would be very intersting as well.

Last edited by The Wolf : 20th July 2010 at 19:20.
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