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Old 20th July 2010, 22:59   #901
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Exclamation yada yada yada

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
Kindly post us common folks a gist of your understanding........
My friend your wish is being granted!

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Jaggu,

I went to AKC, with 7.00X16 NDMS on a MM540, I would have preferred 7.50X16.

The tread Pattern of the NDMS is still the best for MUD.
Very honestly i also felt the same, your vehicle was superbly built, drivers one of the best. BUT tyres were just not holding up. I didn't comment on this coz i felt you are sold on NDMS.

Again what kind of mud, as Tejas posted below NDMS has its limitation, while cutting helps, if its really soft and deep stuff, flotation needs to take over.

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Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
From what i have noticed with regards to NDMS is that they are good for slush that is ~4-5 inches deep. They cut through, find hard surface below and propel forward using the grooves as well. Any deeper slush and they are the first to sink compared to other broader tyres. In deeper slush, the mudzillas (highly deflated) work better IMO.
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Besides most Evolve away from NDMS to change their tyres for LOOKS, the only sensible tyre upgrade was on Robinson's Invader 245-75-16.
Arka most might be overstating it, no offroader who is serious about the sport cares anything about looks. If so i would be restoring my CJ3B to be a classic.

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Have you driven a CJ3B with 7.00X16 NDMS? compare it with a CJ3B with Maxxis Trepador 235-75-15 and you will see the difference.

However the newer Tyres are more versatile.
No Arka, i haven't driven one with 7". But yes what i prefer is a versatile tyre.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
As I earlier said, involve yourself in scientific reasoning, that will supersede opinions and visuals. Let me explain, "Overall tire diameter + optimum pounds per square inch force on ground + deeper tread pattern + correct momentum and floatation" is what you need to overcome most wet/mushy obstacles. Now, do you think an AT/HT can beat the NDMS? If yes, which one and how? I'd like to understand it from scientific stand point.
Ok if you took time to read the above, you would have got the answer. Yes the same answer you would see in other zillion web pages. Mud is a very general term and it changes from terrain to terrain and in the same terrain after couple of hours.

Oh sorry! you were not there in Munnar with us so you might not get the drift. But to give you an idea an 8km stretch which someone did in 30-45 minutes, almost became an overnight drive after couple of hours of rain. Check Munnar report for details.

EDIT: few pics for what slush can be, thanks to Sathish.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
I would not debate on highway performance and rock crawling with NDMS yet as I said its the contact patch and rubber compound that matters there. NDMS is a relatively skinny tyre and Im unsure of the compound stickiness of different NDMS brands like JK, MRF, Superking etc As far as my rock crawling experience is concerned with 7.00-16 Superkings @20psi, its been way beyond what I've read in Tbhp.
There is nothing to debate here, just deflate and pray. They (NDMS) are not that bad if its crawling. But when it comes to very rocky terrain where you have to hop and climb deflation also will not help, especially if it has rained a bit.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
I have had absolutely no issues on the asphalt too as of today, no the tyres havent locked up in the last 1 month even once. (I wouldnt mention its monsoon currently)
what! you are a trophy winning driver!! and you have sobered after getting a jeep!!

Just kiddding dude, but dont bother! Again! They just suck if you do a panic stop.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Neither did I dude, I never said they are the best off road technology, infact if you read carefully I said that here at Tbhp perceptions and opinions flow galore which cannot be approximated or mistaken as test of a particular technology. Unless products are tested fair and square under controlled test environments, scientifically, no one can be sure of one thing over other. I rely on scientific reasoning than "Opinions" I hope you are with me here...
Common dude, what made you think we are in the business of running down things. Infact BLR boys are the most whacked out lot, when it comes to questioning perceptions and proving them wrong.

And hello we guys don't have that kind of scientific inclination like you, which we admire. But please don't give us heavy stuff, like Red_Liner we are running slow speed processors up there.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
I dont wana get into one more debate bro, I seem to be observing things exactly opposite to what you have mentioned coz Im reading more and more people trying to get their hands on the Bullets, Sandgrips, NDMS which are so hard to procure these days. If you have a set of 7.00/7.50-16 NDMS, put it up for sale and see how quickly it will sell as against some dueler or Alanzos...provided the buyer is inclined towards pure off road usage.
Bro but i felt that you wanted to get into a debate? unfortunately office hours are lil difficult these days, and hence a quick reply at this hour though it might miss out the prime time traffic.

And please you want NDMS/Sandgrips??!! talk to the right people outside the online world, they are available plenty and no way extinct! Including the 7". I had offers, which i never even bothered to respond.

And what do you mean pure offroad use?? How much have you seen of offroad? am puzzled here? As far as i know the Swift i use for onroad has el cheapo A drives and am looking for OTR tyres for my beloved DwArF.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Lastly, just to seal this conversation, people buy HT/AT to help them use their offroaders on tarmac (80% of agerage usage) effectively and not coz they perform better "Off The Road", now thats called using tire technology in your best favor and VFM conscience in my terms
ehm i hope that was just you taking a dig, if not god bless you!

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
The Sandgrip is a Sand Tyre and Good for Rocky conditions, and very poor in muddy condition.
Oh Wolf, this is why Sandgrips are not preferred and we had a tough time in Munnar!

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
As I said, there is difference between an off road tyre and a multipurpose tyre. NDMSs are not too much of a multipurpose I reckon, but it suits my purpose so Im ok.
Very happy for you.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Agreed & Accepted but that wasnt the crux of the discussion, it rather was pure offroading context. Bringing in subjectivity will dilute the context and confuse us as well as the readers.
You are the one who is confused here, am very clear am looking for a very versatile off road tyres.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Debatable, but not enough circumstantial evidence to start the discussion...LOL!
Refer above and munnar thread, if i get time ill try to get you some video to analyze better and refer to science.

EDIT: Thanks Akash for the video, this is what happens with couple of hours of drizzle!




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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Shows. None of us are. Your approach is your baby, no one can challenge that.
Yeah we are very shy characters (me and DwArF) till....

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Scientific advancement? Why using a 1950s hurricane? LOL
A very personal attack on DwArF! But i guess you have to read up more on vehicles to understand the finer details. Meanwhile, why i choose DwArF, well its a personal choice. FYI the MM540 you picked up was also available, but i never even considered it. So to each his own, dont poke fun about our 4x4!

Anyways read the quote below we dont have to be as insecure as a MM 540

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Compared to a CJ3B the MM540 with the same engine is not that powerful, so the tyres have to be carefully selected.

Regards,

Arka
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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Yes, DKG could use those tires coz he didnt have to go cross country like Arka from Chennai to AKC spot...hehe!
Ayoooooooo he drove all the way from hyderabad!! and that too on radials!! which was swapped at the venue. Arka on the other hand drove with sand grips and shifted to NDMS.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Its too subjective bro, its not about old or new, its about what works and what doesnt, isnt it?
Yes bro, do we have to re-invent the wheel all the while. Well am more open minded, i learn from others also.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
As our off road vehicles more so have the limitation of going only as far as hub deep dont you think we stand a better chance with cutters with good tread pattern that aids paddling than the boggers.
Heavy vehicle, cutters are disaster if the terrain is deep and soft slush. They stand better chance in small inclines with mild muck, which won them world wars.

ps: So now we can take it from here or you can take your sweet time to go through all the sense and nonsense above and reply. But sorry am really really tied up and might not be able to respond, soon. Unless you take more digs on DwArF or me

Last edited by Jaggu : 21st July 2010 at 00:38.
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Old 20th July 2010, 23:56   #902
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I am driving my MM550 XDB from last 2 years on and off the road. http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...hp-family.html (1998 MM550 XDB 4WD Joins Team-Bhp Family)

To sum it-up, NDMS "SUCKS" on/off the road at least in my case. This is not enough for a 2500CC, 5 speed Jeep like mine. All these time, I only enjoyed 60% of potential of my Jeep on or off the road just coz of this stupid Tyre. I realized it when I drove to Munnar with Viji's 235/75/15 Trepedor M/T. On highway I was cruising on 90-100 comfortably-highest being 110km/h without losing the breath of engine. Chassis, suspension limitation and differential ratios were the only things preventing me from going more than that, you will feel that engine still has lot of power. Thread was self cleaned seconds after coming out of every ditch on trail.

I went to Shakhleshpur last year with Pizza Cutter(NDMS) and I was sliding down diagonally with engine braking. Tejas and Jaggu told it's only good for 4-5" deep slush, this is not true if you are coming down on a slope. This "4-5" slush can kill you and your MWB in such situations.

Having said all these, no scientific explanation is required for those who do offroading for a living. Imagine a makeshift Pick -up ( Mahindra Major with a rear platform ) with Bald Tyres, close to 2 tonnes of Eucalyptus wood loaded and coming down on a slippery slope with little or no Brakes at all. All they have is couple of extra leaf springs to handle the load. What scientific explanation you will give for this? It's not always rule book and theory my friend. Go and see those fellas, they are the real Off-Roaders!!!

Thanks
--Sree--

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Old 21st July 2010, 01:48   #903
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Lastly, just to seal this conversation, people buy HT/AT to help them use their offroaders on tarmac (80% of agerage usage) effectively and not coz they perform better "Off The Road", now thats called using tire technology in your best favor and VFM conscience in my terms [/quote]

Wolf: This is the the first time i am coming across somebody choosing a tyre (for their offroader) for use on tarmac in the Off roading circle i have been in. People buy broader AT/HT's which actually hardens the steering than the NDMS = Drive becomes harder. You need to spend more time in OTRs figurings out why somebody has chosen a tyre and see it performance yourself before judging a tyre.

Cheers
King
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Old 21st July 2010, 08:10   #904
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Wolf, experience the otrs in all the seasons in a year, then you can judge easily. NDMS is just VFM and it is not a best off road tire. i pay 600 bucks for a full tread which is better than a highway tire for my off road usage. they perform 70% of what a 6000 bucks tire can. there is no much science involved here to break your head. its just compromises over cost and performance.
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Old 21st July 2010, 12:15   #905
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post

Very honestly I also felt the same, your vehicle was superbly built, drivers one of the best. BUT tyres were just not holding up. I didn't comment on this coz i felt you are sold on NDMS.

Again what kind of mud, as Tejas posted below NDMS has its limitation, while cutting helps, if its really soft and deep stuff, flotation needs to take over.

Arka most might be overstating it, no offroader who is serious about the sport cares anything about looks. If so i would be restoring my CJ3B to be a classic.

No Arka, i haven't driven one with 7". But yes what i prefer is a versatile tyre.
Hi Jaggu,

I didn't have a problem with the 7.00X16 neither did it have a problem with me, I have driven a bit in muddy conditions to know, what it can do on a CJ3B and on a MM540.

Where wasn't the 7.00X16 NDMS on my vehicle not holding up?

I don't mind if you can cite specific instances and post pics.

But if it is your gut thinking-feeling kind of a thing then, I'm not convinced.

I definitely would want a bigger tyre; 7.50X16 NDMS/G90/LT2000 because of better floatation and improved ADR Angles and my Vehicles Gearing is compensated for a 7.50X16 (31-32") Tall Tyre.

Regards,

Arka

Quote:
Originally Posted by sreerajunnithan View Post
I am driving my MM550 XDB from last 2 years on and off the road. http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...hp-family.html (1998 MM550 XDB 4WD Joins Team-Bhp Family)

To sum it-up, NDMS "SUCKS" on/off the road at least in my case. This is not enough for a 2500CC, 5 speed Jeep like mine. All these time, I only enjoyed 60% of potential of my Jeep on or off the road just coz of this stupid Tyre. I realized it when I drove to Munnar with Viji's 235/75/15 Trepedor M/T. On highway I was cruising on 90-100 comfortably-highest being 110km/h without losing the breath of engine. Chassis, suspension limitation and differential ratios were the only things preventing me from going more than that, you will feel that engine still has lot of power. Thread was self cleaned seconds after coming out of every ditch on trail.

I went to Shakhleshpur last year with Pizza Cutter(NDMS) and I was sliding down diagonally with engine braking. Tejas and Jaggu told it's only good for 4-5" deep slush, this is not true if you are coming down on a slope. This "4-5" slush can kill you and your MWB in such situations.

Having said all these, no scientific explanation is required for those who do offroading for a living. Imagine a makeshift Pick -up ( Mahindra Major with a rear platform ) with Bald Tyres, close to 2 tonnes of Eucalyptus wood loaded and coming down on a slippery slope with little or no Brakes at all. All they have is couple of extra leaf springs to handle the load. What scientific explanation you will give for this? It's not always rule book and theory my friend. Go and see those fellas, they are the real Off-Roaders!!!

Thanks
--Sree--
Hi Sree,

You obviously gained road speed because the Trepador's are Taller (29.5"-30") and a better ride because of the Radial Construction.

Did you correct your speed for the taller tyres?

Why is the 6.00X16 not enough for a 2500cc Naturally Aspirated 5 speed JEEP?

There is Scientific Explanation; More Weight = More traction

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by Jaggu : 21st July 2010 at 12:39.
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Old 21st July 2010, 12:36   #906
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Hi Jaggu,

I didn't have a problem with the 7.00X16 neither did it have a problem with me, I have driven a bit in muddy conditions to know, what it can do on a CJ3B and on a MM540.

Where wasn't the 7.00X16 NDMS on my vehicle not holding up?

I don't mind if you can cite specific instances and post pics.
Lot's of places, where much less capable vehicle were climbing without fuzz your vehicle was giving up, just coz NDMS got caked or was not able to give traction for the weight it was carrying. This includes the day 1 and 2 where i was watching. I might have some pictures also, but this is exactly the reason why i don't comment about it

And thats not only me, many others also saw all this, and not just my perception by a long shot.

Anyways am also tired of this NDMS vs AT/MT debate, whatever works for you.

I dont have anything against NDMS! but my only statement is NDMS is a very VFM compromise tyre, which i also use in my vehicle. I would not hesitate to offer better tyre recommendation if one can afford it and IF its available in India. Unfortunately i cant afford one at this point of time

Oh! Creepy Crawlers thats the one i want for my CJ3B!!!
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Old 21st July 2010, 12:45   #907
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@Jaggu: I am yet to come into consensus with your posts...have been trying as hard as I can given the permission of time. Will respond or take it over a phone call with you later...or may be at a OTR sometime! Oye, no personal attacks Ive made on you and your 1950's DwArF in any way!!!

@Sreeraj: Its just coz it was NDMS you seem to have survived the passing ordeals with such debatable finesse, I cant imagine ANY other tyre of the physical dimension of a 6.00-16 on the Jeep of your size taking you so far Correct me if Im wrong. I will wait for your response.

Yes, the 6.00-16 will SUCK on a 1&1/2 tonner that you have, sure it will. Undersizing your tire will result in suckable performance, it aint the tire fault if you look at it closely.

My NDMSs stand 31.2inches tall with 7inches of track width specified, obviously my contention would be with something beyond what you folks are indexing to. Let me know your thoughts on that. I would prefer a 32-33inch tire with 8-9inch track width but as 7.50-16 aren't available Im doing good with these for now.

@King: What according to you is a HT/AT tire, Off Road tires???

@Star: Whats your take on Superking NDMSs that are 31.2inches tall and have 7inches of track width. Ah plus soft compound. Not too many of us have experienced it so any experience on it stated here might help noobs like me. Ive heard most brand NDMSs last half as much as AT/HT tires, I dont see that as too much of VFM at four and a half grand per tyre+tube. And no 7.00-16 cannot be re-treaded I am told =)

Last edited by The Wolf : 21st July 2010 at 13:01.
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Old 21st July 2010, 12:51   #908
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@The_Wolf: I don't have anything to explain further on this topic of NDMS vs AT/MT.

Only thing i can say is, come for more OTR's, drive in different terrains, through the year and make your own decision and then comment. All this research, theory etc needn't really apply in real life, so don't be too bullish about something till you try the dark side.

Cheers have fun!

EDIT: Its 1985 M&M CJ3B

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Old 21st July 2010, 13:02   #909
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Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
NDMS is just VFM and it is not a best off road tire.
What are you sure about NDMS, if so it's good atlast.

@Wolf- NDMS tyre is good only if the terrain has ruts otherwise its just VFM.
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Old 21st July 2010, 13:04   #910
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Lot's of places, where much less capable vehicle were climbing without fuzz your vehicle was giving up, just coz NDMS got caked or was not able to give traction for the weight it was carrying. This includes the day 1 and 2 where i was watching. I might have some pictures also, but this is exactly the reason why i don't comment about it

And thats not only me, many others also saw all this, and not just my perception by a long shot.

Anyways am also tired of this NDMS vs AT/MT debate, whatever works for you.

I dont have anything against NDMS! but my only statement is NDMS is a very VFM compromise tyre, which i also use in my vehicle. I would not hesitate to offer better tyre recommendation if one can afford it and IF its available in India. Unfortunately i cant afford one at this point of time

Oh! Creepy Crawlers thats the one i want for my CJ3B!!!
Hi Jaggu,

IIRC I got stuck thrice and Winched out Thrice. Never once was it the issue with the Tyres getting caked.

The First Time it was not slushy and it was an inexperienced driver.

The Second Time, It was the V-Canal/Stream before Lunch, I did it once and on the return, the channel was dug up and after a few tries decided to get winched out.

Again I chose the wrong line, hit my Rear Diff and decided to ease up, for fear of damage.

Incidentally I drove across this in Venkat's CJ3B with 7.00X16 NDMS with minimal fuss.

Third time was at the start of AKC, where I thought I will clear the obstacle and eased up on the throttle and got stuck (Skid Plate or Front Diff).

Even the Long Climb Just after Lunch, we guys did it with minimal fuss, both the NDMS equipped vehicle went up in one shot.

Pat with Trepadors took a 3 attempts.

In fact on Day#1 the Sickle Shaped climb on the Lake bed before we took the trail to get out, all the Chennai JEEPers were able to drive out.

Venkat on his CJ3B with NDMS 7.00X16 and Patrick on his CJ3B with Trepadors.

My vehicle had stalled half-way up the climb, when I took over and climbed up with out a run up or momentum.

I'm quite pleased with the NDMS's Self-Cleaning property, but I will agree with you on the weight factor, a broader or bigger NDMS would have done it much better.

In other have specific observations, I definitely don't mind because I know that 7.00X16, though it is fantastic on a CJ3B, is a little compromised on MM540.

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by ex670c : 21st July 2010 at 13:05.
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Old 21st July 2010, 13:15   #911
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I'm quite pleased with the NDMS's Self-Cleaning property, but I will agree with you on the weight factor, a broader or bigger NDMS would have done it much better.

In other have specific observations, I definitely don't mind because I know that 7.00X16, though it is fantastic on a CJ3B, is a little compromised on MM540.

Regards,

Arka
Precisely my point.

Your vehicle is superbly built has some amazing mods done to it, drivers are well tuned to it. That itself is a potent package according to me, imagine your vehicle with some mudzilla or big horns on them, those 3 days.

Am sure you would be running circles around others, not that it was not impressive, it was! but maybe faster circles like Thar with Crdi engine

Just kidding with Thar ok. Lets not start another debate on this.

Thats the only point i would like to drive home.

EDIT: Arka: One serious advice from you: What is your opinion of Creepy Crawlers 7.00x16 for DwArF? I was floored seeing it perform in Munnar. Benji's jeep was running them. I know they are expensive and wear out fast, but man those tyre's were something!

M8090 Creepy Crawler

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Last edited by Jaggu : 21st July 2010 at 13:26.
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Old 21st July 2010, 13:23   #912
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@The_Wolf: I don't have anything to explain further on this topic of NDMS vs AT/MT.
OK

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Only thing i can say is, come for more OTR's, drive in different terrains, through the year and make your own decision and then comment. All this research, theory etc needn't really apply in real life, so don't be too bullish about something till you try the dark side.
Cheers have fun!

EDIT: Its 1985 M&M CJ3B
I agree...

I love to get my basics right in my mind first before I apply it on ground, sorry if its shaking up a few theories and challenging a few others. Expertise always wins over experience, thats my thumb rule and dude theres nothing to be bullish about anything man, peace off

Edited quickly hehe: Im not comparing NDMSs with the likes of Creepies, 'padors or horns...please dont get me wrong in that way.

Last edited by The Wolf : 21st July 2010 at 13:28.
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Old 21st July 2010, 13:36   #913
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Precisely my point.

Your vehicle is superbly built has some amazing mods done to it, drivers are well tuned to it. That itself is a potent package according to me, imagine your vehicle with some mudzilla or big horns on them, those 3 days.

Am sure you would be running circles around others, not that it was not impressive, it was! but maybe faster circles like Thar with Crdi engine

Just kidding with Thar ok. Lets not start another debate on this.

Thats the only point i would like to drive home.
Hi Jaggu,

How much is the width of 6.00X16, 7.00X16, 7.50X16 (NDMS)

152.4mm, 177.8mm & 190.5mm

What is the width of the Mudzilla's or Big-Horn in question.

245-75-16, 31-10.50 15 and 31-11.50-16

245mm, 266mm and 292mm

So while I increase Traction and Floatation & Friction due to a Larger Contact patch, I also loose power, not a problem in a 200BHP, V8 revving up to 7000rpm, but XD3P SAAR!!!!

Also our primary OTR events are on sand where these tyres will float but also increase resistance.

There are some sizes which are suitable but not easily available like 235-85-16, 245-75-16 or 7.50X16.

I'm not into running circles around any one, but I'm pretty sure I can hold my own against the best.

Regards,

Arka

PS - Creepy Crawler vs Trepador (235-75-15) vs 7.00X16. Trepadors is a better choice on accounts of versatility and Price.

Last edited by ex670c : 21st July 2010 at 13:39.
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Old 21st July 2010, 13:38   #914
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EDIT: Arka: One serious advice from you: What is your opinion of Creepy Crawlers 7.00x16 for DwArF? I was floored seeing it perform in Munnar. Benji's jeep was running them. I know they are expensive and wear out fast, but man those tyre's were something!

M8090 Creepy Crawler

Attachment 391162
Jakku, since ArkaJEEP is busy with TPC, he has deputed me to answer all such queries.

We saw those tyres perform. My only bone of contention even then was that using them predominantly on-road to get to the OTR spot will take its toll on the tyre. That tread does not last beyond 3,500 kms at the most.

If you have the ability to go with HT tyres to the OTR location and then shift over, it makes super sense. But that comes with its own problems of carting these tyres, and changing them near the location etc.

Still, I had my doubts over the longeivity of the trepeadors (2 years back when they started making an appearance), but after seeing the same tyres in action over a span of 2 years, I have changed my mind.

PS: Benji did tell me that the creepie's have very low tyre life.
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Old 21st July 2010, 13:49   #915
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Arka: makes sense maybe for your vehicle with those tyres might not make sense, in the kind of terrain you drive predominantly. Again nobody is disputing your competitive spirit or preparedness

Venki: Trepadors on heavy vehicle like 540 550 vs lighter vehicles like gypsy, cj3b etc That's what am banking on for that additional life factor. And how much do we run in an year, if it last 2 years of our use, its worth it. I guess.
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