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Old 19th June 2008, 16:31   #16
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I seriously think a modern Prado or LR or Hummer can whip the MM's any day.
Offroading is not just about approach angles. Esp long distance offroading.
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Old 19th June 2008, 16:35   #17
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
a few exotic ones like the G-Wagen & Jeep Wrangler.
Perhaps you would be interested to know that for all the hype surrounding the G-Wagen its the Patrols and Landcruisers along with the Wranglers/Cherokee/Grand Cherokee lot that rule the deserts.

Wrangler is not exotic. Its the cheapest offroader money can buy. A great offroader though and tons and tons of fun. You especially will fall in love with the Wranglers Arka. Treat yourself to one and you will be amazed.

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I seriously think a modern Prado or LR or Hummer can whip the MM's any day.
Offroading is not just about approach angles. Esp long distance offroading.
If there are any offroad machines I would bow my head in respect toward, its the products from Toyota. Their depth of abilities, ride comfort, sheer durability, build quality and reliability borders on the legendary status.

In Australia where many farming families live in the middle of nowwhere and require strong 4x4's built like vaults never to break down where they do hundreds of miles just to get groceries its the TLC that rules.

The bulk of oil and gas exploratory work taking place around the planet use TLC for their transport.

A bit OT but once I took 11 people in my TLC and did 600 kms in a day doing highway speeds close to 190 kmph. And does that beast stay rock solid!

Last edited by Rehaan : 20th June 2008 at 09:52. Reason: Merged. Please use the "multi-quote" button.
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Old 19th June 2008, 16:52   #18
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I do not have much experience with 4x4(except gypsy), but when I watched Top Gear Arctic Expedition, I got a new respect for Toyota, esp the Hilux.
Icelanders use moded hilux and other Toyota's for extreme offroading.
Moreover UN uses Landcruiser quite extensively, and on african safari's these are quite popular.
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Old 19th June 2008, 16:56   #19
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I do not have much experience with 4x4(except gypsy), but when I watched Top Gear Arctic Expedition, I got a new respect for Toyota, esp the Hilux.
Icelanders use moded hilux and other Toyota's for extreme offroading.
Moreover UN uses Landcruiser quite extensively, and on african safari's these are quite popular.
The blend of abilities packaged for consumers in the TLC are so huge I would anyday entrust my (and family's) life to a Toyota product if I had to choose one offroader for a around the world offroading adventure
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Old 19th June 2008, 17:09   #20
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Arka

I think I can relate to how you feel about the 540's and humbly request you to stay open to the possibilities of modern offroaders not only surpassing but opening up new dimensions for you in the offroading arena.

I sincerely wish you will consider treating yourself to a new Wrangler someday as going by my hunch you will fall in love with this car for sure. It offers unlimited potential to upgrade and customise and I can see you totally taken up by that world. As a fellow enthusiast I'd hate to see you denying yourself what the world of new generation offroaders offer once they start trickling into India. And I hope that's not too far. I would love to see Mahindra actually acquire the Jeep brand from Chrysler.

I cannot even begin to explain how wonderful a machine the Wrangler is. You can practically throw anything at it. Rock crawling et al

Wishing you the very best and please keep up the great work you are doing for the 4x4 world in India. Once I get a decent offroader I would love to ride along with you, not to prove anything but to have fun with you. I'm sure you will teach me quite a bit from your experiences too.
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Old 19th June 2008, 17:13   #21
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@ ex670 >>> When you talk about long distance offroading it isnt only about approach angles for the offroad and the vehicles ability to make the long offoad journey without breaking down. Its more important during a long offroad journey/event that the vehicle dont "break you down".
So for all the statistics that you have provided in comparision for the 540 vs Prado, logically the 540 due to its pathetic ride comfort will certainly break you down if it doesnt manage to break down by itself.

As far as a prado's reliability in India goes , you seem to have mentioned the 540. Trust me the conditions we face in India are unique but not half as bad as regions across the world where a TLC/PRADO or a nissan patrol will perform the everyday grind off the road & on it, without 'breaking you down'.
cheers:

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Old 19th June 2008, 18:45   #22
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I am just wondering loud. What does Indian Army use other than MM540s for their long range offroading needs? I am sure they have such needs.
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Old 19th June 2008, 19:40   #23
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Talking Omg!!

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I am just wondering loud. What does Indian Army use other than MM540s for their long range offroading needs? I am sure they have such needs.
Come on Samurai San!! Do you think Indian army would prefer giving the soldiers a proper luxury 4X4?? If they would've considered something modern for our country's army uses, they would've atleast provided a Hummer kinda vehicle. And right now, they're in the process of getting AXE in place of that.

There is no comparison between a MM540 and the modern 4X4s. Toyota 4X4s are very far!!!!
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Old 19th June 2008, 20:06   #24
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Come on Samurai San!! Do you think Indian army would prefer giving the soldiers a proper luxury 4X4??
No, not luxury SUVs. Anyway, Wranglers or Cherokees are hardly considered luxury. I am just talking about providing our soldiers with modern 4x4 vehicles without the comfort features. Are our UN deputed soldiers expected use 540s to chase rebels who are on TLC?
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Old 19th June 2008, 21:12   #25
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The honest truth is that for the offroad enthusiast in India there is no other option to choose from. So he is left to experiment with his jeep & gypsy which is like a frog in the well. Now we have scorpios endeavours & safaris and old pajeros as examples of modern offroaders which to me is like shooting with a water pistol and claiming to be better than the wild wild west.
No offence meant.
There are options - But whether one would choose to off road in a 20 lakh+ SUV or a sub 2 lakh offroader.

The high end SUVs are great, but one hardly learns techniques of driving.

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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Oh come on Arka you serious believe I bought the 207 for offroading? I have used the new generation Wranglers, Cherokees, Grand Cherokees, Range Rover, Land Rover Discovery, short and long wheelbase Nissan Patrols, Prado and the TLC GXR (I owned one) and driven all the Jeeps you are used to here to say this that you my dear sir have limited knowledge of modern 4x4 machines to make such a sweeping statement.
Sir, Maybe arka is wrong in his statement, but you have missed out one thing: Offroad as a sport is to learn the techniques and mastery of your vehicle. I agree that the 540 may not be a fair comparison to the TLC. But off road, atleast in India, [unless I'm gifted a TLC by your highness], the 540s prove themselves reliable and fun.

It when the engine labors around and you know that there is not much power to tackle the obstacle that the technique comes in. I'm no expert, so please dont jump on me guys. But seriously, whats the use of all the power and comfort when one is just left holding the steering wheel and stomping the accelarator pedal. The vehicle and its electronics do all the work. The driver sits like an ixxxx and has a grin on his face.

No offense to anyone here!

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi DKG,


MM540 Vs Prado
1) Creature Comforts - Prado/TLC80/ BZJ80 (Solid Axle)
2) Power to Weight - MM540XD (58Bhp per ton) may go in the Prados favour depending on the Engine (2.5L is no match)
3) Approach Angle - MM540XD
4) Breakover Angle - MM540XD
5) Departure Angle - MM540XD
6) Suspension - MM540XD (the coil-spring offers a better ride and articulation but under acceleration, the coils compress, resulting in lower GC and loss of power and traction.
7) Wheel Base - 93.5 vs 115+ inches obviously MM540XD
8) Fording Depth - MM540XD
9) Engine - Prado
10) Gearbox - Prado
11) Reliability - MM540XD (in India)
12) Servicability - MM540XD (In India)
13) Agility - Off-Road MM540XD
14) Footprint - MM540XD
15) Modifications - MM540XD (In India)
16) Axles - Prado
17) Chassis - Prado
18) Body & Built Quality - Prado

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-of...am-quarry.html (Report - Offroad Training Day at Kelambakkam Quarry)

Palar Challenge - Participants Pictures :: Fotopic.Net

A few places where I have driven the TLC and the MM540.

Also most people who buy New Generation 4x4s cannot afford to either modify it or repair it after or for off-road activities in India.
No, I will take a TLC offroad to any place you challenge arka, The TLC definitely has better engineering.

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Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
@ ex670 >>> When you talk about long distance offroading it isnt only about approach angles for the offroad and the vehicles ability to make the long offoad journey without breaking down. Its more important during a long offroad journey/event that the vehicle dont "break you down".
So for all the statistics that you have provided in comparision for the 540 vs Prado, logically the 540 due to its pathetic ride comfort will certainly break you down if it doesnt manage to break down by itself.

As far as a prado's reliability in India goes , you seem to have mentioned the 540. Trust me the conditions we face in India are unique but not half as bad as regions across the world where a TLC/PRADO or a nissan patrol will perform the everyday grind off the road & on it, without 'breaking you down'.
cheers:
You say that Mahindra breaks down or breaks you down?

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I am just wondering loud. What does Indian Army use other than MM540s for their long range offroading needs? I am sure they have such needs.
They prefer simple machinery without electronic aid to take them places. And they maintain their vehicles, hence!
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Old 20th June 2008, 03:09   #26
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Please Don't Compare, I beg all of you please, don't compare a MM 540 with a Land Cruiser Prado Or a TLC-GXR. It's Not fair it's like saying i like the ride quality of the Premier Padmini to the ride of a e280. there's no point in it. And has anybody ever seen a Qualis or an Innova broken down on the road other than a battery prob & If you guys have seen, like how many have you guys actually seen when compared to a MM Jeep. Don't compare you guys will make me weep.

Even in the deserts when the temperatures soar upto 52 + Degrees the Land Cruisers don't sweat or whine,they just do what they were ment to do which is Go any where and Never Let us down.

The Wranglers sometimes feels a little too rigid with the equipment on board it.But hey nobody ever complains about it .You don't have to shell out much to get one either.

The Rovers, they were designed for the english people in mind , they better stay there enjoy the rain, drink their cup of coffe or they could come down to the middle east and die of dehydration(their ECU's go KAPUT in high temperatures they cost around 9,000 DirHams to replace).

And the Least Said About the hummers the better. Of all the pics i have seen of the Hummer in desert there would be a LC,Patrol or a Cherokee pulling it out of the dune in which it got stuck.
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Old 20th June 2008, 09:38   #27
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Guys,

MM540 & prado comparision?- Yes comparison in terms of off road ability is fair, but the class of vehicles being compared is unfair. Just for the fun of it compare MM550, Landrover defender 90, Gurkha, L.C FJ 80 series, Nissan patrol SWB, Suzuki Samurai/gypsy etc etc. SWB will obviously have advantage over LWB.

Now think how many of you will opt for a MM540 if the above options were available in India?

I own a MM540, a very capable machine it is & i love it. But comparing it to a toyota is little over the top. In off road driving one not only needs specs but also reliability & precision of controls are extremely important. M&M vehicles lack there. It may survive a trail or two and may keep up with other 4x4's mentioned above but how often it does it with grace is important.

Toyotas are replacing landrovers world wide. The issue is quality. Land rovers are hardy machines but toyotas are practicle. Harsh deserts like nambia trust only toyotas as they prefer reliability over repairability. The trend is seen the world over.

Defenders which are told as last of trye 4x4's sell about 2000 units a year world wide. Toyotas even thier basic 80 series sell more than that in africa alone in pick up and stationwagon form.

Mahindras sold CJ 340, 500 & MM540 in hardcore 4x4 countries like U.K, africa & Australia in 1990's. They got great reviews for their off road ability. But did they sell?? The build quality was too bad compared to options available then. Now after 15 years Mahindra is trying hard to make inroads again with a battered image with better products.

Quality reliability and durability is problem with Mahindras of yester years.

MM540 will do what others can, but how often it does is the question!!

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 20th June 2008 at 09:42.
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Old 20th June 2008, 11:54   #28
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You say that Mahindra breaks down or breaks you down?
What he meant was that a crude non AC non creature comfort vehicle will break you down after extended offroading in harsh climates(eg desert).
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Old 20th June 2008, 12:30   #29
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Default ".......The Mahindra ate the Hi-Lux........"

A brief review of MMJeeps by an Australian Magazine, and these guys know their Japanese 4WDs.

http://www.film.queensu.ca/cJ3B/Phot...imeComing1.gif

http://www.film.queensu.ca/cJ3B/Phot...imeComing2.gif

http://www.film.queensu.ca/cJ3B/Phot...imeComing3.gif

http://www.film.queensu.ca/cJ3B/Phot...imeComing4.gif

http://www.film.queensu.ca/cJ3B/Phot...imeComing5.gif

Regards,

Arka
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Old 20th June 2008, 13:42   #30
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I'll put it simply : Are Mahindra SWB Jeeps great bang for the buck? You bet. They have probably 75% of the ability of more expensive offroaders at 5% of the price. Of course, driver skill and judgement matters as much as the 4x4 machinery whilst offroading. I wouldn't say that Mahindras are in the league of LC's and Pajeros when it comes to outright offroad capability, but many will be surprised at how close they can be. The simple construction, torquey engine, light weight and small size make them mountain goats. You wouldn't really want to risk damaging the expensive body panels of your LC / Pajero in harsh conditions, would you? Heck, there are so many situations where the large size of more expensive offroaders would be a bummer, or the sheer weight could bog them down. May sound like a strange analogy, but isnt this exactly why we respect the EVO's and Impreza's? They are pretty close in track performance to the Italian exotics, but cost only a fraction of the price. Plus, they are more involving to drive, just as a basic 4x4 would be when compared to a luxo LC 100 series.

That said, our Jeeps lack the all-too-important technological bits such as LSD's, diff locks, more powerful engines, creature comforts etc. Stock versus Stock, the more distinguished LC's etc. are king. Use a Jeep as a project and load it up with equipment (engine, LSD, lift kit, better axles etc.) and they will be as good, if not better, a offroader as any.

Quote:
Modern machines outclass the oldies in terms of comfort and long distance offroad useability. The oldies are fun in short distance fun, that's it.
Valid point. For long distance offroad usability, most of us would be totally worn out in the basic Mahindra's and Gypsies. Hell, I drove my Jeep from Bombay to Goa (on nice flat terrain) and was pooped by the end of it.

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
A brief review of MMJeeps by an Australian Magazine, and these guys know their Japanese 4WDs.
To add to Arkas roadtest links, I have uploaded an international offroad test, that includes the Mahindra CJ and wrangler!

Some excerpts from this British test:

Quote:
But despite the flaws, the Mahindra is a superbly capable off-roader. It went places where even the Camel Trophy spec Land Rovers couldn’t. The four-speed gearbox is stiff and notchy, particularly in low ratio, and switching between two and four-wheel drive is hard work. The two transfer levers often need two hands to get them to play. When you’re going, though, it takes a great deal –
a pine tree for instance – to stop it. Many times we used the Mahindra to pull the other vehicles out of
trouble when their more limited ground clearance snagged them in mud or on rocks. It did the the job admirably but could have made things easier if it
had a rear tow eye – we had to hook onto the leaf springs. The front tow loops look a bit feeble, too.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Topgear - Mahindra Roadtest.pdf (378.1 KB, 4021 views)

Last edited by GTO : 20th June 2008 at 14:05. Reason: Merging two consecutive posts
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