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Old 20th June 2008, 18:30   #46
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^^I concur.

Shall we now compare the two contestants structurally and mechanically?
This can bring out a lot of data about the differences between modern 4x4s and jeeps and how one is superior over the other.
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Old 20th June 2008, 19:52   #47
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The thread says > Mahindra 4WD vs Modern 4WD

Mahindra 4wd is still using world war 2 technology. There is no evolution in the mechanicals that can make it credibly modern from any angle.
Modern 4wd has evolved totally from the point of view of chassis development, suspension, gearing, differentials, engine, electronics, creature comforts, styling... (did i miss anything)
So what exactly are we comparing.
The comparision with antiquity has never yielded any results and is futile. Antiquity is in a league of its own.
A lot can be said about the usability and the cost efficiency of a Mahindra 4wd, but if mahindra were to offer the similar technology as available on modern generation 4wd, that cost advantage would certainly disappear.
There is no debate on whether the mahindra 4wd is effective or not. It certainly is. It sure can do things & go places where some new gen 4wds might be limited, but does that make it better ?

Evolution in automobiles has integrated the function of offroad ability with on road ability and comfort. Reliability is automatically factored in.
Old 4x4s were rugged & crude. New 4x4s are rugged but not crude.
A modern 4x4 does not only function as an offroader. It combines the function of offroading with carlike onroad function, something that cannot be achieved by Mahindra 4wd.
Lets take the evolution of the mahindra itself.
drive a 4x4 bolero on front and rear leaf springs with solid axles and a scorpio 4x4 with independent front suspension. The evolution in the suspension automatically makes the scorpio more drivable and versatile than a bolero which feels agricultural in comparision.
I think ive made my point.
The comparision with antiquity has never yielded any results and is futile.
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Old 20th June 2008, 21:07   #48
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What I fail to understand is here we have a group of people who seem to have done most of their offroading on the Mahindra products, have yet to use modern SWB offroaders and are categorically stating that nothing in modern offroaders can match the old timers!

Someone please tell me how on earth one can claim that the modern Wrangler is no patch on the Mahindra which obviously has ancient Jeep pedigree?

You have yet to see what the new generation offroaders can handle before you make such absurd assertions.

And if you guys have used modern SWB's and have concluded that the MM 540 rules, then honestly my mind boggles

Trying to compare the Prado with a swb is like taking a F1 car into heavy traffic and saying my Activa scooter beats the F1 car. Get with it guys. There is no contest. Like to like the modern SWB's will have the old timer SWB's for breakfast. TLC's are in a different league as they put saloon cars to shame in terms of the luxury they offer a family while being phenomenal offroaders.
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Old 21st June 2008, 00:49   #49
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You guys take on Arka a little too forcefully. I think Arka was saying that the Mahindras will go where no modern off roaders will go, in the Indian context. A TLC may get a broken axle or suspension part or just a hole in the crankcase and be stuck there days (for parts and a mechanic), whereas a Mahindra could be out in hours.
DKG, I am sure you have a great and capable TLC, but would you dare take it close to places that Arka would casually take his MM540?
I have a Safari 4WD but I would not even attempt to try stuff that Arka tries. Of course, the Safari is not a patch on the TLC but neither would I dare do it on my Defender 110, not for any other reason other than I would not want to hunt for parts and a mechanic in the middle of nowhere.
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Old 21st June 2008, 02:24   #50
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Why should hunting for parts come into question when we are discussing about capability?
It's not the question of one will take his car to offroading or not, but what a certain car is capable of.

Even from the Indian point of view, a modern SWB offroader (thanks DKG for that term) will take the breath out of any Mahindra old timer. Just because they haven't brought in some latest technologies doesn't mean that we should continue arguing of them being the best vehicles for offroading.
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Old 21st June 2008, 03:16   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post

In my opinion Jeeps are extremely capable on road, but their highway driving dynamics are outright scary. Even the Jeep wranglers sold in the west until a few years back was pretty scary to handle at highway speeds in the west.
For sure. Many lawsuits from crash victims forced the demise of the CJ and the evolution to the Wrangler in the U.S. By the way, the Wrangler is not that highly regarded in the U.S. Reliability and quality problems have hurt it. Many buy it but then mod it heavily.

The U.S. Army also decided that there were too many deaths and accidents from jeeps losing control. This is one reason, not the only, that they developed the Humvee. Please do not flame me on this point, I worked for the Defense Automotive Readiness Command of the U.S. Army in Detroit for awhile during this time period. I daily saw the Humvee being tested and developed although I was not directly involved with it.

This being said, Indian jeeps can be made safe and they can be driven safely. You can also put a little power in them, as we have seen in this forum.

"A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse!"
_Willy Shakespeare
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Old 21st June 2008, 04:00   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jyobeb View Post
You guys take on Arka a little too forcefully. I think Arka was saying that the Mahindras will go where no modern off roaders will go, in the Indian context. A TLC may get a broken axle or suspension part or just a hole in the crankcase and be stuck there days (for parts and a mechanic), whereas a Mahindra could be out in hours.
DKG, I am sure you have a great and capable TLC, but would you dare take it close to places that Arka would casually take his MM540?
...... I would not want to hunt for parts and a mechanic in the middle of nowhere.
Well said! Here at the front range, Himachal Pradesh, it's a long walk to Delhi for some parts. Arka is only a little demented, not a lot demented . Below is a picture of an engine fix here locally. A Peugeot diesel had a broken crankshaft. (I was amazed at how big the crankshaft was and we all wondered how he managed to break it... another story). They popped the engine out, put in the new crankshaft, put the engine back in and the truck was out running in one day, granted a long one.
Attached Thumbnails
Mahindra 4WD vs Modern 4WD-crankcase-broke.jpg  

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Old 21st June 2008, 09:33   #53
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Gentlemen, I don't think we are discussing individuals so lets stick to the discussion.

To answer your question a modern SWB offroader will go places and do stunts which Mahindra's even in capable hands can only sit by the wayside and dream of. The sheer versatility of modern SWB offroaders stock or customised is aweinspiring. I have seen offroaders literally bounce off rocks like a preying mantiss and scale unimaginable rock terrain. Without new tech be it in engines, suspensions, and diffs this won't be possible.

Why are we so closed to what's happening around the world? This is truly sad. No one is saying the Mahindra is junk. Its okay, nothing to write home about. But wait till you see what the new stuff can do. It will freak you out.

May I suggest something. I'm sure the net now has a plethora of videos covering modern SWB offroaders. Please take time out and view some stuff to just get an idea of what is happening.

BTW Parts non availability does not reflect on a vehicle's capability. So that's a non issue.

Regards the issue of reliability and safety on Wranglers, the gentleman is right, which is why I said earlier the TLC will leave the Wrangler far behind on long distance offroad useability!

One more point, the Indian terrain doesn't exactly figure as the world's most challenging, especially around Madras! Lets leave the Himalayas out though.

Last edited by DKG : 21st June 2008 at 09:42.
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Old 21st June 2008, 10:40   #54
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One jeep, a dozen threads ! That too for a vehicle thats really basic and simple.

That said, I doubt if there's anything to be gained by comparing a M&M WW2 vintage jeep to modern-day machinery. Any modern SWB (thanks Double D) will make mincemeat of the CJ or MM's abilities.

Being nostalgic is fine, but nostalgia should not extend into fantasy. A VW Beetle (original) is similarly a good substitute for a daily drive - how many of you would prefer it over your air-conditioned, ICEd, 100+ bhp sedans?
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Old 21st June 2008, 10:44   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Being nostalgic is fine, but nostalgia should not extend into fantasy.
Worse still this air of invincibility will actually kill someone!!! Offroading is an extreme sport and the mature offroader first knows his steed, his own talent and limitations, and the terrain. Making the mistake of being delusional about the capabilities of any of these factors can prove to be fatal.

Enough said!
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Old 21st June 2008, 10:55   #56
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Hi Dirty Dan,

Thats not a Peugeot, thats the MDI3200.

Notice the heavy flywheel.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 21st June 2008, 11:05   #57
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Hi Guys,

You guys are making progress...

My statement was " the new gen 4x4 are no match for the old-gen 4x4"

After seeing 2 online international reviews about the off-road capabilities of the M&M JEEPs, you guys have started using the term "Modern SWB Off-Roader".

Are you accepting that the LWB/MWB are compromised.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 21st June 2008, 11:13   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Gentlemen, I don't think we are discussing individuals so lets stick to the discussion.

To answer your question a modern SWB offroader will go places and do stunts which Mahindra's even in capable hands can only sit by the wayside and dream of. The sheer versatility of modern SWB offroaders stock or customised is aweinspiring. I have seen offroaders literally bounce off rocks like a preying mantiss and scale unimaginable rock terrain. Without new tech be it in engines, suspensions, and diffs this won't be possible.

Like This (this is before I fitted the Front & Rear LSD)
Attached Images
    
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Old 21st June 2008, 11:15   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Are you accepting that the LWB/MWB are compromised.
That is a purely academic point. The Modern Day LWB/MWB can do about 90% of what the antique SWB can do, then hop on-road and leave a lot of modern cars panting as they head back to city with 7 passengers in air conditioned, well-sprung comfort.

Secondly, you may crawl through some rocks and crevices with the MM's engine, while the TLCs and Patrols blast through the same terrain at over thrice the speed.






Those guys arent crawling through terrain. They're driving through most of it.

If you had an MM or a CJ for your off-road thrysts, you would need another vehicle to transport the participants to and from the venue.

Its a bit like owning a full-on Dirt Bike - you have to tow it to its terrain and then get on it. Whereas you could own a KTM 900 or a BMW or an Africa Twin, ride up to the site and then join the fun with the towed bikes. Okay you may not be able to hop across a couple of rocks, but you can still ride around them and do almost all the other stuff. The point is, do you want to own a full-dirt bike just for the 1% that it can do over the others?

The question really is whether you can afford a KTM 900 or a BMW. Or whether you'd prefer to buy a WR450 for less than half the price and never get around to using it until you tow it to site.

EDIT: Nobody here is claiming that the MMs or CJs cant do stuff. The point here is that modern machinery does all that without breaking into a sweat. They have the power, the suspension, the 4x4 technology from a later age - we shouldnt shut our eyes and claim that all progress is for nothing, CJ is still the best.

Last edited by Steeroid : 21st June 2008 at 11:31.
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Old 21st June 2008, 11:21   #60
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Just my 2 cents: Many of the people here who claim to have gone "off roading" in their mahindras are mainly referring to the jeep thrills and other organized off roading events where a lot of people come together, climb over rocks and other terrain, click a lot of photos, go home, park their mahindras in the shed, and 99% use their proper car after that, till the next 'Track day'!

But what the supporters of the new gen offroaders are saying is a much bigger picture, there are people in several places who have to go through punishing terrain on an everyday basis, and not just for fun! In such a case, the Mahindras would get royally screwed. Not necessarily the jeep, but more so its occupants!

It really pointless comparing the two i feel! Its time mahindra offered us a little more than WW2 leftovers!

Last edited by JayD : 21st June 2008 at 11:24.
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