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Old 21st June 2008, 11:22   #61
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Default Challenging Terrain

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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Gentlemen, I don't think we are discussing individuals so lets stick to the discussion.

Why are we so closed to what's happening around the world? This is truly sad. No one is saying the Mahindra is junk. Its okay, nothing to write home about. But wait till you see what the new stuff can do. It will freak you out.

One more point, the Indian terrain doesn't exactly figure as the world's most challenging, especially around Madras! Lets leave the Himalayas out though.
Hi DKG,

M&M JEEPs are JUNK, thats why I keep rebuilding them, poor build quality.
But their under chassis - Chassis, suspension, Gearbox & Transfer case, Differentials (DANA44) are bullet proof considering the small engines)

As far as terrain is concerned I thought the same, where can I find challenging OTR spots around Chennai, I keep looking around.

The Palar Challenge developed through that search and the need for VERY Challenging off-road.

The difficulties
1) Riverbed sand is far more stressful than desert sand(I have driven a Pajero in Rajasthan & on the Palar)
2) Heat - the entire 30Kms a day is done in 4WD and Low Ratio.
engine heats up, gearbox heats up, everything heats up.
3) We have to make short climbs (10-30ft) 20-30 a day through sand quarries.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 21st June 2008, 11:22   #62
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Guys,

You guys are making progress...

My statement was " the new gen 4x4 are no match for the old-gen 4x4"

After seeing 2 online international reviews about the off-road capabilities of the M&M JEEPs, you guys have started using the term "Modern SWB Off-Roader".

Are you accepting that the LWB/MWB are compromised.

Regards,

Arka
Arka since when was SWB offroading the exclusive bastion of old generation offroaders? The discussion was never about SWB vs LWB/MWB. Please don't digress. You made an assertion that nothing in modern machinery can match those of yesteryear. SWB old vs SWB new is no contest. Come one sir please accept this and lets move onto having some fun.

Arka, even on the national stage offroading is a tiny sport and its almost like a village where we all end up knowing each other from around the country. To me what's precious is spending time with you all. Trying to prove a point is never a criteria. Infact its not important to me at all.

If your assertion was something like nothing in present Indian offerings can match the old world offroaders I could have concurred. But taking on the whole world of modern offroad contraptions and claiming a 540 beats them all is well tough for me to digest.

Seriously please consider and lets move on as this debate is actually a non-starter.

BTW SWB vs MWB vs LWB is again an inappropriate comparison as each have their value given the terrain and comfort parameters required, not to mention luggage carrying ability. So SWB rules in extreme offroading, whereas for higher speed stabilty offroad its the MWB and LWB machines that rule.

Last edited by DKG : 21st June 2008 at 11:24.
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Old 21st June 2008, 11:26   #63
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Gentlemen, I don't think we are discussing individuals so lets stick to the discussion.
Arka? Actually we were trying to unpack what he might have meant by his post. We were discussing his ideas, not him. But he can speak for himself, as he is a high functional demento.

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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
No one is saying the Mahindra is junk. Its okay, nothing to write home about. But wait till you see what the new stuff can do.
No doubt. But where are they? Not around here for less than 10 lakh. And where are their parts and master mechanics? Japan? Germany?

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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
BTW Parts non availability does not reflect on a vehicle's capability. So that's a non issue.
Who said this thread was only about capability?

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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
One more point, the Indian terrain doesn't exactly figure as the world's most challenging, especially around Madras! Lets leave the Himalayas out though.
Why leave remote places out? Ease of repair seems like a reasonable criterion to me. I think I will leave the Himalayas in. Too big and heavy to move anyway.

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
That too for a vehicle thats really basic and simple.
See, you really do understand after all. You will notice that the reactionaries are modding their geezer off-roaders to make up for their short comings. But, sometimes the modernists are, too, if they dare get them muddy.

That is the last I have to say on this subject. If you disagree with me please forward your letter bombs to GTO.
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Old 21st June 2008, 11:33   #64
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Guys, please try to discuss without resorting to mockery or putting down others. Let's not be like those school/college lecturers who find it necessary to insult the students while teaching.

I accidently sparked off this discussion when I hoped to see two different generation of vehicles in one terrain. I was not planning to compare them in strength and technique, but just see how each handles a given situation. I didn't expect a comparision, therefore had to a carve a new thread to accommodate it. However, I think this comparision is not meaningless, instead it is helpful in uderstanding how technology has evolved over years to make off-roading easier and safe.

Therefore, I urge the participants to dissect the differences and enrich our collective knowledge. But blanket comments like modern is great doesn't help, instead I would like to learn how and why they become great. I don't think anybody is under the illusion that 50s technology is superior over current technology. I rather want to know how the newer off-roaders solved challenges faced by eariler off-roaders.

Incidently, the only time I drove a 2000 model Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo, it was in a mock off-roading track. I drove over this 8ft tall mud pile, almost 35 degree slope. It felt like going over a small speed bump. The rest of the trail was very uneven, my wife who was 9 month pregnant then was very happy with the ride. We later tried Ford Escape on the same trail, it was such a disappointment, my wife couldn't wait to get out. BTW, she gave birth after 3 weeks to a very hyperactive kid.

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
One jeep, a dozen threads ! That too for a vehicle thats really basic and simple.
One Jeep? There so many varieties of Jeeps starting from WW-II Willys to the latest Major. There are many Jeep threads because that's what this section is about, please notice the description for this section, it says Jeeps, muck, slush, sand and more.
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Old 21st June 2008, 11:33   #65
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Originally Posted by JayD View Post
But what the supporters of the new gen offroaders are saying is a much bigger picture, there are people in several places who have to go through punishing terrain on an everyday basis, and not just for fun! In such a case, the Mahindras would get royally screwed. Not necessarily the jeep, but more so its occupants!
I actually did this JayD, before I moved to Dubai I lived in Sharjah and every day the highway used to be clogged with traffic taking one easily 1hr+ to reach Dubai. As I had the TLC I would simply shift into 4wd and plonk it right into the desert sand and drive across to Dubai to actually get to work! I would use it for highway cruising, with friends and family in tow, carry loads and loads of camping equipment, go into the desert in airconditioned comfort or onto beaches or up wild wadis for all nighter camping trips and do all the offroading I cared to do while out in the wilderness. I cannot but end up respecting the capabilities of a modern offroader.

Last edited by DKG : 21st June 2008 at 11:34.
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Old 21st June 2008, 11:39   #66
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
But blanket comments like modern is great doesn't help,
Blanket comments of any sort dont help, whether modern or classic.

Classic is great if its available at a cut price - bang for buck is very very important, because hard-core off-roading is a very niche activity which can be expensive if it requires you to own and maintain a vehicle for the rare occasions when you can get off work and personal life just to be in the wild.

Which is why the (genuine) modern offroaders are indeed more practical - you can live with them day-in and day-out, they can be your daily drive and yet you can have your dose of fun when you're in the mood for it. Hell you can decide to go off the road if you find a track on your way back from work, or if you chance upon some track in between some long-distance travel. You dont have to go back home and drag your jeep back to the spot (after bringing it back into running condition, m-sealing it, tightening all the bolts etc) - if you cannot do it spontaneously, where's the fun in it? Fun isnt planned.

Last edited by Steeroid : 21st June 2008 at 11:41.
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Old 21st June 2008, 11:45   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post

The New generations 4x4s are no match for the Old Generation 4x4 in Off-Road Country.
Samurai the discussion started off with this sweeping statement.

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I don't think anybody is under the illusion that 50s technology is superior over current technology.
Excuse me Sir!! I think Arka is under the "illusion" that 50's tech is superior over current tech

Wanting to understand how tech has evolved is a totally different issue and frankly I am not an automotive engineer to add value there in detail. However, having used the best of the modern stuff I can confidently claim the old timers are no contest!

But in light of the initial assertion made, old tech vs new tech I still maintain there is no contest and this discussion trying to sell the virtues of 540's over all new offroaders is to say the least absurd

PS: Lets us not try to salvage our standpoint by qualifying that factoring in price points, parts availability, SWB vs LWB makes the 540 better. The discussion never hinged on such parameters. Stick to Arka's original assertion stated above, in light of which he remains having made an inaccurate assertion in my opinion.

Last edited by DKG : 21st June 2008 at 11:58.
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Old 21st June 2008, 11:49   #68
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Default 90% capability

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
That is a purely academic point. The Modern Day LWB/MWB can do about 90% of what the antique SWB can do, then hop on-road and leave a lot of modern cars panting as they head back to city with 7 passengers in air conditioned, well-sprung comfort.

Secondly, you may crawl through some rocks and crevices with the MM's engine, while the TLCs and Patrols blast through the same terrain at over thrice the speed. Those guys arent crawling through terrain. They're driving through most of it.
Hi Steeroid,

1) Stick to off-road performance, I haven't questioned the comfort or build quality of modern vehicles.

2) Once you start off-roading regularly will know which terrain to crawl through and which to blast through.

3) The discomfort on the road has always been an issue with JEEPs, but we are supposed to be discussing Off-Road capabilities

4) In JEEPs you will be sweating because of physical effort, in modern 4x4 you will be sweating because of the rising bill and the lack of off-road manners.

I definitely cannot afford to buy a modern off-roader, they are too expensive to maintain (off-Roading)

Regards,

Arka
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Old 21st June 2008, 11:55   #69
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In India modern offroaders are yet to become practical. I should know, I do own a modern mid-level off-roader for which I can't get any offroading spares. In many countries where they use GV for serious off-roading have access ready to spares and off-roading accessories. Here you have to pay an arm and a leg and long wait to import the damaged part. And off-roading accessories have to be custom built, and they may not work that well.

I eventually got myself a Mahindra just for off-roading because it is practical in Indian context. It stinks on-road, unsafe, crude and rusting all the time. But it is light on the pocket, have ready access to parts and any road side mechanic can fix it.

I would love to own a TLC that I can drive to office, take offroad occasionally, have ready access to off-roading spares and mechanics, not burn my pocket, etc. When is that going to happen?
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Old 21st June 2008, 12:01   #70
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
they are too expensive to maintain (off-Roading)
THAT is a myth. Many of them do not require maintenance after every bout of off-roading - that is where technology (and quality) works out to your advantage. Yes they are more expensive to buy, but if it comes to a situation where I can buy an FJ cruiser (my weakness) for the equivalent about Rs.10 lakhs, why on earth would I buy an MM540 for Rs.5.4 lakhs? I'd spend less time and money maintaining the FJ primarily because it requires little or no maintenance.

Availability of such vehicles in India IS an issue, but that does not make the modern off-roader any less capable.
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Old 21st June 2008, 12:06   #71
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Steeroid,

1) Stick to off-road performance, I haven't questioned the comfort or build quality of modern vehicles.

2) Once you start off-roading regularly will know which terrain to crawl through and which to blast through.

3) The discomfort on the road has always been an issue with JEEPs, but we are supposed to be discussing Off-Road capabilities

4) In JEEPs you will be sweating because of physical effort, in modern 4x4 you will be sweating because of the rising bill and the lack of off-road manners.

I definitely cannot afford to buy a modern off-roader, they are too expensive to maintain (off-Roading)

Regards,

Arka
Yes Arka sticking to all the points made by you modern SWB offroaders will have the 540 for breakfast on any offroad terrain anywhere in the world, with regards to offroad capabilities

Last edited by DKG : 21st June 2008 at 12:09.
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Old 21st June 2008, 12:07   #72
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Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
Sir with all due respect to your offroading knowledge & experience that statement smacks of jealousy & ignorance to me. Sounds like an oldtimer thumping his chest claiming that his lambretta is better than the eterno.
Try comparing a stock old 4x4 with an equivalent stock new 4x4(not the indian ones). Take the humble jeep for example. Do you really think the prehistoric mahindra jeep will go the distance in 50*c approx temp without overheating & going bust. Even if it can manage that then it does not have enough power & torque to propel it through a wadi style dune bashing session.

No offence meant.
Hi Jay,

Didn't realise you owned TLC Prado. The small profile picture it looked like a Chevy Forrester.

Can you post a few off-road pictures of your TLC.

A a brief writeup about it off-road capabilities on terrain you have experienced.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 21st June 2008, 12:14   #73
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Default Maintainance Myths

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
THAT is a myth. Many of them do not require maintenance after every bout of off-roading - that is where technology (and quality) works out to your advantage. Yes they are more expensive to buy, but if it comes to a situation where I can buy an FJ cruiser (my weakness) for the equivalent about Rs.10 lakhs, why on earth would I buy an MM540 for Rs.5.4 lakhs? I'd spend less time and money maintaining the FJ primarily because it requires little or no maintenance.

Availability of such vehicles in India IS an issue, but that does not make the modern off-roader any less capable.
Hi Steeroid,

Do you take your 4x4 off-road every 2 weeks. And what about rock rashes, which any 4WD will suffer from time-to-time.

Sand is very forgiving on the body, but what about the lubricants and other stuff.

What if something breaks or breaks down.

I have personally suggested and advised on repairs to Solid Axle TLC and Nissan Patrols and its very difficult and expensive to get parts.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 21st June 2008, 12:21   #74
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I have personally suggested and advised on repairs to Solid Axle TLC and Nissan Patrols and its very difficult and expensive to get parts.
In India, perhaps - please refer to the last sentence in my previous post. Besides, we werent talking about off-road abilities in India, were we? You really dont have any modern-day offroaders available at their real prices in India and therefore I wouldnt blame a Prado user for being more tentative about throwing his vehicle around. If the vehicle were as commonly available as the Jeep, then its a different story altogether.

But then if I were to go by that logic, I'd much rather keep a second-hand M800 for daily use than buy a Civic or an Accord.

Last edited by Steeroid : 21st June 2008 at 12:40.
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Old 21st June 2008, 12:22   #75
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Default Again Modern SWB Offroaders

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Yes Arka sticking to all the points made by you modern SWB offroaders will have the 540 for breakfast on any offroad terrain anywhere in the world, with regards to offroad capabilities
Hi DKG,

No doubt that will happen, but I need a G-Wagen, preferably a SWB G-Wagen,and a Trax Gurkha can certainly make me spill my milk

But why are you stressing on SWB offroaders.


Regards,

Arka
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