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Old 21st June 2008, 12:24   #76
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Arka I really don't think this discussion is about individuals or their rides or their experiences with the rides and how often one goes offroad and how often you crawl boulders etc.

This is about you claiming that old tech 540's are the last word in offroading and that new modern machines are no patch on them.

If after all these exchanges you remain unconvinced that your assertion was totally inaccurate (considering you have yet to use modern SWB offroaders off road to see how far they have progressed) we may go on endlessly to no avail.

I rest my case. This discussion from the outset was absurd and that it continues even now as a few wish to assert that modern offroad tech remains compromised in comparison to 540 tech, I don't think I can be of value here.
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Old 21st June 2008, 12:29   #77
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Arka I really don't think this discussion is about individuals or their rides or their experiences with the rides and how often one goes offroad and how often you crawl boulders etc.

This is about you claiming that old tech 540's are the last word in offroading and that new modern machines are no patch on them.
Exactly. I rest my case - I have no wish to go personal with a person who goes off-road more often in a day than I would in a whole year.
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Old 21st June 2008, 12:31   #78
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi DKG,

No doubt that will happen, but I need a G-Wagen, preferably a SWB G-Wagen,and a Trax Gurkha can certainly make me spill my milk

But why are you stressing on SWB offroaders.


Regards,

Arka
Not just the Gurkha and the G Wagen Arka, the Wrangler series and the awesome customising that goes on with it will completely floor you. Please believe me you will be ecstatic as to what it enables you to do. You obviously have a innate talent. That talent coupled with a modern SWB offroader will border on phenomenal.

I do realise you have explored the 540 capabilities and have found it to serve you well. All I request is be open to superior tech.

Forget the MWB or LWB offroaders if all you wish to do is extreme offroading. If not today in future you will be able to afford new offroad tech which will totally amaze you in terms of high lift suspension, axles, engines etc, not to mention basic creature comforts. All I am saying is don't go into a shell and rule out all the amazing high tech available in the market for offroading. That's all

Last edited by DKG : 21st June 2008 at 12:33.
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Old 21st June 2008, 12:34   #79
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Yes Arka sticking to all the points made by you modern SWB offroaders will have the 540 for breakfast on any offroad terrain anywhere in the world.
I don't think that is the real bone of contention here.

I remember this radio poll conducted by a talk radio station in NJ. They asked the listeners who are better drivers, men or women. Hundreds of men and women called and claimed that their respective gender is better. How could this be? When I listened to their reason, it started to get clear.

1) Men said they are better because they have better skill, drive faster and reach on time.
2) Women said they are better because they are more mature, don't race, drive careful and reach safely.

Both were correct.

Similarly, here Arka's argument is based on Indian context where the desi Mahindra's are more practical and cheap. Meanwhile DKG and others are purely going by their experiences abroad with latest machinery.

In the only off-roading event I attended I have seen both MM540 and a Prado (1992) participate. While the Mahindra was being pushed into any terrain, the Prado owner was very guarded where he pushed his vehicle fearing damage to rear overhang. We had a Mahindra mechanic with us, but no Toyota mechanic. Eventually both made it and back.

What is happening here is that both camp is talking with different contexts. Arka is talking Indian context, and rest are considering countries where TLC is cheap to own and operate.
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Old 21st June 2008, 12:36   #80
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Steeroid,

1) Stick to off-road performance, I haven't questioned the comfort or build quality of modern vehicles.

2) Once you start off-roading regularly will know which terrain to crawl through and which to blast through.

3) The discomfort on the road has always been an issue with JEEPs, but we are supposed to be discussing Off-Road capabilities

I thought the thread reads Mahindra 4wd vs modern 4wd. When did it chenge to discussing off road capablities only. Off road capability depends equally on skill and not only on machine as has been pointed out earlier. SO thats a different debate warranting a different thread.

4) In JEEPs you will be sweating because of physical effort, in modern 4x4 you will be sweating because of the rising bill and the lack of off-road manners.
Lack of offroad manners is a highly debatable statement in the hands of a professional.

I definitely cannot afford to buy a modern off-roader, they are too expensive to maintain (off-Roading)
That does not make them any less capable than a Mahindra. We are not basing this thread on price and cost factor either. It is obviously apparent that a modern machine will be more expensive to maintain than an old one. But if one cant afford it, one wont own it, modern or old.

Regards,

Arka
If i decide to stick to the point of this thread then i will say only this much:
A modern 4wd has greatly reduced the difference between a pure offorader & a general suv. It has bridged the gap by a wide margin thereby making offroading for enthusiasm or a sport more accessible to a wider mass of people. It also saves one of the trouble of owning 2 vehicles for on and offroad purpose.
The cost high cost factor you refer to has no part to play in this discussion because a vehicle within 5-10 lakhs can never be equal to one around 20+.

This debate is not about your offroading prowess and knowledge either.
Your credentials are well established on this forum. We would rather discuss the difference between mahindra 4wd & modern 4wd and not what you can/do in a mahindra 4wd/modern 4wd.

Regards.

Last edited by jaysmokesleaves : 21st June 2008 at 12:39.
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Old 21st June 2008, 12:37   #81
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Samurai the original assertion did not limit to India. It was a generalised statement, in light of which the whole world of new tech was being marginalised. Which I wholeheartedly disagree to.
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Old 21st June 2008, 12:52   #82
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I get the sneaking feeling we are missing out on an age old phenomena, rejection of the new.

I remember when computers were first being launched people who used typewriters sneered at the whole process. Accountants swore the old manual bookkeeping was more sound that all this fancy gibberish called software.

When the first few fuel injected cars appeared on the scene we had all the mechanics in arms trashing fuel injection as being too complicated and difficult to fix.

When automatics started to appear again people trashed them saying they are complicated and likelihood of breakdown is high (by the way many in the world of offroading have taken to auto trannies, they actually feel its more handy)

I guess you'll have proponents of brake drums vis a vis discs

wood based bodies vs steel shells

ladder frame chassis vs monocoque

The list is endless

But we can all see that the old will give way to the new as it definitiely is an improvement.

Makes sense fellas???

MM540 will gave way for the Wrangler Just watch it

And the biggest joke is having trashed the new publicly a lot of people sercretly harboured a desire to use the new. So Arka, I want you to be the first in India to acquire and customise the Wrangler as and when it gets launched so you can take the world of new generation offroading to new heights, and not sit in the background being relegated to the ranks of an oldtimer who was once good with a 540!

Last edited by DKG : 21st June 2008 at 12:55.
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Old 21st June 2008, 12:57   #83
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Come on guys! We can't keep arguing like a frog in the well.

M&M has done us all a favour by giving us a good supply of 4X4s and let us have fun. But what they didn't do was to bring in some newer technology in their 4X4s. Now, the world has grown too big in 4X4 arena while we are still stuck with the generations old M&M feedings.
Let's take it in the opposite direction. What will be the condition of an MM540 if it's taken to the Wadis? How will it stand in between all the TLCs, FJs, Latest Jeeps, Hummer etc..? What will happen if it breaks a part or 2 (as normal)?

As I said, let's come out of this Frog in a well kinda arguement and start thinking ahead.
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Old 21st June 2008, 13:00   #84
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As I said, let's come out of this Frog in a well kinda arguement and start thinking ahead.
I totally agree Sir, the future in offroading is just around the corner and what a blast I can see it to be. With a pair of DHC RR's in town, a dozen Bentleys and countless Range Rovers and Q7's dotting just one little town like Hyderabad its just time before we start seeing some very serious extreme offroad machinery trickling in.

The future is very very bright and I frankly don't see MM540 written all across it. Perhaps in some history book

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Old 21st June 2008, 13:18   #85
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Hi SpeedyZak,

This is how I see a MM540XD perform in Dubai Dune Bashing Terrain.

1) On the Sand it will bring up the rear.
2) On the 30ft plus Sand Walls it may just barely climb

In the Wadis (if you mean rocky riverbeds will boulder strewn across)
It will again bring up the rear, but while other 4WDs are hopping a wheel on hard surfaced climbs, the 2.5L will gruff and propel the MM540XD quite easily without slipping or spinning a wheel.

As far a breaking a thing or two.

I have built my MM540XD to post 2004 MM550XD specs with rear Full-Floating Axles which are DANA44s so are the front. With the XD3P it is quite impossible to break the drive-train or steering.

And since the MM540XD has no A/C or PS i'll be all sweaty and look real hard working, maybe become an instant hit with all the
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Old 21st June 2008, 13:33   #86
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Samurai the original assertion did not limit to India. It was a generalised statement, in light of which the whole world of new tech was being marginalised. Which I wholeheartedly disagree to.
Yes, I concede that point. This argument after all started in Dubai offroading thread.

Last edited by Samurai : 22nd June 2008 at 08:51.
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Old 21st June 2008, 13:57   #87
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Steeroid,

Do you take your 4x4 off-road every 2 weeks. And what about rock rashes, which any 4WD will suffer from time-to-time.

Sand is very forgiving on the body, but what about the lubricants and other stuff.

What if something breaks or breaks down.

I have personally suggested and advised on repairs to Solid Axle TLC and Nissan Patrols and its very difficult and expensive to get parts.

Regards,

Arka
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Which is why the (genuine) modern offroaders are indeed more practical - you can live with them day-in and day-out, they can be your daily drive and yet you can have your dose of fun when you're in the mood for it. Hell you can decide to go off the road if you find a track on your way back from work, or if you chance upon some track in between some long-distance travel. You dont have to go back home and drag your jeep back to the spot (after bringing it back into running condition, m-sealing it, tightening all the bolts etc) - if you cannot do it spontaneously, where's the fun in it? Fun isnt planned.

I am not much of a 4wd expert, but i must agree with steeroid, planned fun isn't fun at all. We had a blast in steeroids safari on the monsoon drive last weekend. Took it over some pretty bad terrain where all the cars stopped. The safari just flew through everything!On the way down, We came across a jeep full of passengers climbing up, and they literally hanging on for dear life in that contraption, it was then that we realized that the terrain we encountered was so tough!

After the off road session, the car was a dream blasting through the hairpins! If this trip was done on an MM540, i'd still be in bed!
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Old 21st June 2008, 14:27   #88
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I am not much of a 4wd expert, but i must agree with steeroid, planned fun isn't fun at all.
So you mean to say that Monsoon Drive was no fun at all because it was planned well? Planned offroad events do have their own surprises.

This is a stupid thread. Different generations of 4WD are compared over different terrains and countries.

The most apt answer to this thread will only come from a person who has used both generation vehicles in the same terrain. Compare modded to modded and stock to stock.
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Old 21st June 2008, 14:33   #89
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And since the MM540XD has no A/C or PS i'll be all sweaty and look real hard working, maybe become an instant hit with all the
Also many dehydrated/blacked out souls looking for a desert oasis around.
According to the topgear resort which was posted by GTO, it takes around a week for 0-100 times.
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Old 21st June 2008, 16:42   #90
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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
This is a stupid thread. Different generations of 4WD are compared over different terrains and countries.


i will suggest Mahindra's to a person looking for cheap weekend offroad fun/event, where even if it rolls nothing much apart from some tapping and a coat of paint is req. But would i suggest the same vehicle to a person entering Paris-Dakar run?

Diff events, diff terrain, speed and what not, only common factor is 4x4 but diff is all about $$$

And i dont think arka is also denying the fact that the MM needs customization and embracing newer tech to really make it more capable, thats why he is also open to upgrading the mech bits from stock.

Its just a misunderstanding which started through key board communication, lets close this and move on.



"Beating a dead horse" is an idiom that means a particular request or line of conversation is already foreclosed, mooted, or otherwise resolved, and any attempt to continue it is futile. In British English and Australian English, the phrase is usually expressed as "flogging a dead horse".
Source:Beating a dead horse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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