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Old 21st June 2008, 19:00   #91
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I do regular off roading as a part of my routine plantation visits.And i must say that to my experience we can't help appreciate the off road ability of the mm540 and cj"s.I have taken a gypsy and a pajero up there.But when it comes to steep climbs with rocks, it is very difficult for gypsys, but 540 will crawl over it in 4L-1st gear.But in a gypsy we need to gather momentum to negotiate such steep climbs and when you do that the front wheel will begin to lift.It's too risky to do that when the drops are above 1000ft.I don't want to start a another gypsy Vs MM540 clash here.
My friend who is a professional rally driver (who has done several rallies in a gypsy and the only winner of reid himalaya in a car ) doesn't agree to this till he drove my mm 540 there.
Again i found the bolero 4wds and Scorpio 4wds struggling in the last Mahindra Great escape held in Munnar,Kerala.Actually our mm540 and some cj's were the only few jeeps that didn't require any winching.So that means even new generation mahindra's are not hardcore off roaders.I think we should classify the off roaders in to hardcore,semi & soft off roaders and gauge their performances in different terrains accordingly.
And when i took a pajero it was not able to climb a slushy hill tract which the 540 could negotiate.Actually the pajero slipped and had gone off the tract, damaging it's rear tailamps and fender.So after that we stopped experimenting with the pajeros.But i'm sure that with better mud tyres and skilled driver, pajeros can take that easily.But to throw it in to that rocky-slushy tract, you need a huge pocket and a hard heart.Also it was not practical to take the bulky Pajero on twisty and slushy mountain roads where even a slight error (especially while coming down,if you happen to give slight acceleration ) may start an unrecoverable slide.
And for my kind of use the terms like approach angle,departure angle etc which Arka was talking about do matter a lot.
I think most us are aware of the the capablilites of Landrovers,hummers Toyotas etc,but few guys about the 4wd capabilites of a pure jeep.When we use them in plains in those hot conditons (Arka it's too hot there in Chennai), we may sometimes think -How crude and primitive it is??.But guys, each time after negotiating some no-road climbs we could only say,wow , Jeep is great man!!!.you had fallen for her and cannot imagine about another.That doesn't mean that there isn't any better ones out there!!!

And mates,if M&M is willing to give us some more power, and a differential lock , you know how glad the Jeeping community will be.

Some pics of my 540 doing it's duty in western ghats@7500ft
Attached Thumbnails
Mahindra 4WD vs Modern 4WD-phto0198.jpg  

Mahindra 4WD vs Modern 4WD-phto0203.jpg  

Mahindra 4WD vs Modern 4WD-phto0224.jpg  

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Old 21st June 2008, 20:56   #92
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@jack: Gypsy has a problem with low torque fig down the rpm, it aint good for crawling, as you mentioned you have to ride it hard and bounce it around Well balanced view on Pajero, and that was what i also meant.

Then again all this doesnt prove any point of superiority, its like golf, diff shots require diff clubs (if thats what they are called, ajmat please help); its like shoes, diff styles and soles for diff occasions. So at the end of the day user can use it to their need/advantage or just get into awkward situation with it. There is no point in saying one is better than the other.

Then there are others who can carry a Sneaker shoes with Tuxedo!

Ok to make it more clear, i think both MM or a newer SUV would do similar terrains if equipped properly, but for low speed rough terrain MM would be happy to handle stock where as a premium SUV might require better tyres. On the other hand for a cross country run, the modern SUV will do great wonders where as a MM would require better tyre, engine and what not. See there is no point comparing these

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Old 22nd June 2008, 02:55   #93
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"I have built my MM540XD to post 2004 MM550XD specs with rear Full-Floating Axles which are DANA44s so are the front." - thats really nice and all. but why would one want a true blue oldie 4X4 to be upgraded in such a manner which is against its principles of being all old school. the changes and technology though very limited but by all means it still is an upgrade of sorts. why would one want anything more?!

going by the basic topic of discussion -" The New generations 4x4s are no match for the Old Generation 4x4 in Off-Road Country".. one can wonder why there is any advancement in vehicular technology especially when it comes to improving vehicles used for all sorts of extreme off-road applications. be it on any sort of terrain-sand, rocks, mud, gravel etc. a Mahindra is a great jeep. used extensively in our country, to access all sorts of terrain and withstand more then enough punishment. with easy access to spare parts, mechanics etc it is definitely the easiest option for people in general. but by declaring that it is the ultimate solution or that its the best thing available and that nothing gets as good as this is purely about being blind. one has limitations when it comes to access to modern 4X4's but declaring them unable to match the older 4x4s is plain funny. and being adamant about things doesn't change anything. when there is scope for improvement, change is imminent. change may not always be good but that's why they have research . hilly slopes with lots of rocks and slippery inclines and river beds etc are not going to deter any proper modern 4X4. for some it may be a once a week/month experience but there are people using it on a daily basis and not getting stuck in the middle of nowhere awaiting a mechanic and parts and wishing they had a mahindra !! its all about reliability, build, improvement based on experience, tyres and then there is the guy behind the wheel. skills apart, any 4x4 would e rendered useless.

Please do open up your mind to accepting the existence and capability of modern 4X4s on extreme terrain. else it would mean that people all around the world are being conned by the automobile industry over the whole conspiracy about improved qualities/features/uses of a modern 4X4 and one would be better off finding himself a good old 4x4 and laugh at the rest of the fools for buying these new not-needed, modern 4x4 contraptions. as you seem to believe.

all the very best. Take care and drive safe. please wear your seat belts even while going off-road.
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Old 22nd June 2008, 06:33   #94
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Well, Arka, seems like they really want to lynch you for that one sentence. Congratulations on stirring them up.
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Old 22nd June 2008, 07:28   #95
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@jack33, nice photographs mate. could you tell me where it was shot? Kudajadri is it?
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Old 22nd June 2008, 07:48   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A S H V I N View Post
all the very best. Take care and drive safe. please wear your seat belts even while going off-road.
Alright guys, I think it is time to give a break. I believe Arka had practicality in Indian condition in mind when he made that statement. However, since the discussion started in Dubai thread, DKG and others had a valid reason to counter it. I moved the whole off-topic discussion into a separate thread to keep the Dubai thread clean, there by starting the so called stupid thread.

Moderator Comments: Let's stop stating the obvious from both sides, it is serving no purpose anymore. Future postings on this thread should focus on technical differences than just "which is better" statements.

Some examples:

1) How modern suspensions are handling off-roading conditions without compromising on ride comfort.
2) What are the modern off-road specfic mods that are done these days as opposed to basic off-road mods on older Jeeps?
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Old 22nd June 2008, 08:32   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Alright guys, I think it is time to give a break. I believe Arka had practicality in Indian condition in mind when he made that statement.
Samurai

This statement from you should've come when this post was made:

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
MM540 Vs Prado
This is an auto forum - when a statement like that is made it will definitely get a discussion going. You cant prevent people from looking at the other side of the picture.
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Old 22nd June 2008, 08:44   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Samurai

This statement from you should've come when this post was made:
In fact, that post supports my statement. Arka is only talking Indian context where he regularly sees Prado participating with MM540s. I am not aware of his international experience if he has any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
This is an auto forum - when a statement like that is made it will definitely get a discussion going. You cant prevent people from looking at the other side of the picture.
I already conceded that point, now that the argument has grown stale, I am changing focus of the thread to the technical aspects.

Last edited by Samurai : 22nd June 2008 at 08:49.
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Old 22nd June 2008, 11:02   #99
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@jack33, nice photographs mate. could you tell me where it was shot? Kudajadri is it?
Those are shot in Vattavada, about 45 kms from Munnar .It is situated at an altitude of about 7000 ft and and there are plenty of off roading tracts inside the eucalyptus/pine plantations.
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Old 22nd June 2008, 21:18   #100
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Do a search on "extreme offroading" on utube and you'll be astounded at the kind of stuff they are doing. The kind of stuff modern machines are handling are pretty well documented through many awesome videos. There's one of a machine going up a massive dune. I know the 540 won't be able to do that.

There's stuff where machines are literally springing like insects scaling unimaginable obstacles.

Its a wild wild scene out there in the world of modern extreme offroading and the stuff these machines are doing more than validates our claim that this discussion was absurd from the outset. Oldies are no patch for modern stuff.

Seeing is believing. Thanks to the internet and utube!
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Old 22nd June 2008, 21:59   #101
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DKG, you have already mentioned this before. And I have specifically requested the members to move on. If you want to discuss technical aspects, please do so. Let's not keep going back to the old argument again and again. It serves no purpose. In fact we have a parked thread to share such off-roading videos from across the world. http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-of...inks-here.html
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Old 23rd June 2008, 09:10   #102
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well said samurai. Guess our DKG should not keep harping on the same point! Lets move on to understand how modern vehicles are being made better.

Utube videos do not mean the ultimate, DKG, have you been there, done that? Great if you have, all the best if you havent tried!
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Old 23rd June 2008, 10:27   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A S H V I N View Post
"I have built my MM540XD to post 2004 MM550XD specs with rear Full-Floating Axles which are DANA44s so are the front." - thats really nice and all. but why would one want a true blue oldie 4X4 to be upgraded in such a manner which is against its principles of being all old school. the changes and technology though very limited but by all means it still is an upgrade of sorts. why would one want anything more?!

Hi ASHVIN,

With regards to JEEP axles.

From its inception FFRA Dana 23-2(Full-Floating Rear Axles) were fitted on the Ford GPW/Willys MB.

The French made Hotchkiss-Delahaye JEEP aka VLR-D was the first 4x4 with Axle-Diff-locks in 1954.

LSD were introduced in the M38A1 JEEPs in the early Sixties.

The M&M Commander 750 have been using the FFRA for the past 25 years, thats how I got it for my JEEP.

So the technology has been there for the past 50 years and more, the application depends on the manufacturer and user.


Regards,

Arka
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Old 23rd June 2008, 12:39   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi ASHVIN,

With regards to JEEP axles.

From its inception FFRA Dana 23-2(Full-Floating Rear Axles) were fitted on the Ford GPW/Willys MB.

The French made Hotchkiss-Delahaye JEEP aka VLR-D was the first 4x4 with Axle-Diff-locks in 1954.

LSD were introduced in the M38A1 JEEPs in the early Sixties.

The M&M Commander 750 have been using the FFRA for the past 25 years, thats how I got it for my JEEP.

So the technology has been there for the past 50 years and more, the application depends on the manufacturer and user.


Regards,

Arka
hi arka,do you have a differential lock fitted? Probably with them I can get out from most of the stuck situations.It's raining there and the hills are too slippery for even my vibram soles.Hey arka,any plans for a Munnar trip, I will be happy to offer you my 540 and some great tracts!!!
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Old 23rd June 2008, 12:43   #105
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To believe that most of the members who have vehemently opposed Arka's 'sweeping statements' have 'true' off roading experiences with the modern machines that they are boasting about would be a total misunderstanding.

I can also sit here & talk about the the TLC which gave us so much comfort yesterday while offroading. But do I actually have the experience of owning one or using one off road that many times in that many different terrains to make any comparisons with any of these 'cheap' MMs ? NO.

Yeah, there were 2 TLCs yesterday & both did very very well. They had excellent & willing drivers too. It would have been a very comfortable offroading experience. But the MMs are great in their own way. They might look awkward in the rocky climbs, but do the same with minimum fuss. Please do some real offroading on both machines before making counters to 'sweeping statements'.
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