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Old 27th September 2008, 14:26   #16
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Default The next CJ3A-CJ3B

Engines f4-134 & XD4.9P weight 184-190kgs

A CJ3A (Chassis & Suspension) and Original CJ3B/CJ340DP/CL340DP and a modified CJ3B
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Old 27th September 2008, 14:35   #17
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Default The Gypsies & other 4x4s

In our OTRs we have seen the MG410/413W suspension in action.

A 4WD Scorpio descending.

The Coil Sprung TLC in action, the front and rear anti-sway bars really restricting wheel-travel.
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Old 27th September 2008, 14:50   #18
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Arka nice photos, says everything about the limits of articulation
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Old 27th September 2008, 15:20   #19
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Default Flex!!!!

All these MM540 have C-Section Chassis and stock suspension.

Except the Sand - MM540XD, the leaf springs have been been modified, and the all 4 Shock Absorbers are from Tempo Traveller (Rear Shock Absorbers)

This allows the suspension to cycle to the maximum and only the front fenders limit UP-travel.
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Old 27th September 2008, 20:51   #20
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Hi Arka,
Very nice pictures you posted there, beautiful shots indeed.
Here are a couple of pictures more. These jeeps with a fairly stock suspension(just a longer shakle and longer shockers), but obviously a larger tire are behaving much the same way as the gypsy is in the above pictures.



Call this co-incidence or whatever, its quite a similar shot of a different jeep in the picture above but odviously in a different area.

Here a picture of my bolero and one of my rattle-can(its the 71 here, the others in my village)

Another one taken quite a long time ago and before i could put a nice set of ndms tires on it.


Took my Bolero for a stroll some time ago. Check out the flex here with all 4 wheels on the ground. The tire is quite high, and i could even take it futher but didn't coz its not a 4x4 but a 4x2, and does not have any lockers either. Also that so stuck up front independent suspension does'nt help the matter either. The 4x4 Bolero what i drive when we go out on a hunt to rajastan easily surpasses the flex of the 4x2Bolero .



Here a picture of the suspension taken before i had switched to the pickup springs. Note the amount it is flexing, even though it is not fully stretched out(this is the lower wheel). The last spring at the bottom is the helper, and if it hadnt been for this(or if you unbolt the nut at the top of the spring set hold), the springs can flex a lot more. But anyways, i have something bigger to worry about, coz i am useing fatter and larger tires than the originals and these tend to rub(the top inside tip) on the wheel arch sides a lot sooner than the originals would, and therefore limit the flex. Infact the originals could flex so much that the restriction then was the bottom helper spring and not the wheel arches.
Regards,
Bikram
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Old 30th September 2008, 16:32   #21
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Hi brutus,

Iam back. Surely i didnt take anything personally and i do apologise for saying if you had actually done ramp test!! You must have done it indeed as i now know you as Bikram singh sadhu of jeep thrills who is an avid technical guy with lots of passion on 4x4. Guys we all are here to learn and spread knowledge so no hard feelings. :-))))

I would like to crarify few things though-

1. I do know what does articulation mean. I also understand what are the factors that contribute to the articulation. suspension travel i meant was assuming if one axle end is resting on the bump stop and the other end is at its maximum suspension travel limit. The length and the flexibility of the leaf along with shakle length will determine the articulation.

2. Wheelbase also determines the performance on the ramp test. Do you think say a longer wheelbase vehicle will travel the same distance with the spring lengths of a shorther wheelbase vehicle? Longer wheel base vehicle requires larger suspension travel/articulation to achieve the same distance done by a shorter wheelbase vehicle.

3. When i said gypsy's articulation is less than a jeep i meant it with stock suspension i.e with anti roll bars. If an apple to apple comparison has to be made then i have seen MM540's with anti roll bars fitted doing better articuation on sections that had gypsy lifting it wheel up in the air.

4. The pictures that you have posted are that of bolero 4x2. I had no doubts about the length of the leaf spring in this case. Infact i said it has got the longest leaf of all M&M personal segment jeeps sold (pickups not included) . My doubt is if a 4x4 bolero can do the same articulation that of a regular jeep even in long wheelbase form. If you have pics of 4x4 articualtion then please post it for our knowledge sake.

5. A 4x4 bolero will have a better articulation compared to a 4x2 bolero the front suspension being a live axle beam. since you have a bolero 4x4 could you tell me if a 4x2 bolero be able to do the same articuation stunt with the 4x4 rear leaf and shakle combination? Also will a old gen armada with C section chassis lift a wheel sooner than the newer bolero rigid axle? I doubt. I have tested long back a bolero 4x4 over a ramp versus a old gen suspension armada 4x4. I stopped with visual inspection and hence dont have figures. The older version had more flex than the new one.

6. I do agree that vertical travel of the wheel may not have direct relationship with the articulation. The springs located close to center on axle with less vertical travel can still be designed for a good articulation.


I have said it before and saying it again a well tuned stock suspension of any jeep that exploits the complete travel opportunity built in with stock shakle, shocks and springs will have a better articulation that a gypsy even without a stabiliser bar.

Gypsy owners like headers, blue thunder, khan sultan and jeep devils like arka will agree on this statement and if they dont agree then please pour in your experiences


PS:(my request to anyone, let this be an educative thread rather than a personal bashing one. No one is trying to prove that one is superior to other)

With regards
Vinod
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Old 30th September 2008, 18:42   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
.... When i said gypsy's articulation is less than a jeep i meant it with stock suspension i.e with anti roll bars. If an apple to apple comparison has to be made then i have seen MM540's with anti roll bars fitted doing better articuation on sections that had gypsy lifting it wheel up in the air...
I would agree to that. I had just removed the stabilizer bar/anti-sway bar just few days back and in the Sakleshpura OTR I was observing the articulation of every 4x4 very carefully. I can safely say that articulation of MM550 is much more than a stock Gypsy. After removal of anti-sway bar in my Gypsy, I could see that articulation has increased a lot and is now fairly comparable to a stock MM550 (if not better)

Quote:
...I have said it before and saying it again a well tuned stock suspension of any jeep that exploits the complete travel opportunity built in with stock shakle, shocks and springs will have a better articulation that a gypsy even without a stabiliser bar.
Quite possible. There is the difference in design of the anti-sway bar also between Gypsy & MM550. In Gyspy, each end is attached to the outer side of the leafs (towards the wheels) and in MM550 it is on the inside of the leafs (towards the pumpkin). Also there are other differences which I am finding hard to describe in words.

But yes, removing the anti-sway bar from Gypsy make the articulation of a Gypsy a LOT LOT better. NO DOUBT about that.

2 pictures from this weekends OTR -- just for illustration.
Notice the articulation of the MM550 (Stock) and the Gypsy (Without anti-sway bar). (NOTE: The Gypsy could have articulated even more. I had checked this out in great detail.)

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Old 30th September 2008, 23:14   #23
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Hi Vinod,
You dont need to apologise for anything and infact i should apologise if i sounded rude or rather harsh. Please do understand my motive was not to fight over petty issues. Its just that i learnt some things that i would like to share, the same way you are too.
Anyways here is a little bit on suspensions,
Every vehicle had a certain point of center of gravity that messes with its road performance, so to alter that there is only one thing the manufactures can do, harden the suspension to increase the spring rate, which makes for a very hard ride and also decreases the flex/articulations. A higher spring rate also means higher capacity of the suspension to take the load(but that also depends on how many main leaves does the entire weight stand on)

Due to the the problems with the hard ride rather than the limitation of flex(what the manufactures care for flex??), they softened the springs, decrease the spring rate but that gives a rather shaky ride(much like the tata safari), which also increases the rolls, that can be quite dangerous(but its a fine art, if you do something to takle roll, it would change for spinning out the tail, so a balance has to be achieved)

The stabilizers, or anti-roll bars as they are called sometimes, are added to only those springs whose spring rate has been decreased than usual. The stabilizer bars too have a spring rate, but it acts between the 2 sides of the axle. It is set neutral for a certain distance of movement, and only acts after that, so the suspension is allowed to travel independently for a certain limit and after that the stabilizer bars starts acting. What it does is when one side of an axle mives up or down, it by doing so, acts against the spring rate of the stabilizer, which increases as the whell moves futher away,and limits(actually bounces back) when the spring rate of the stabilizer is more than the force(due to weight here) exerted by the wheel, if the wheel is still made to go futher away(if the suspension springs hav'nt reached their limits), then it will also take the other wheel with it in the same direction it is going.
Yes, a longer wheelbase vehicle will have to use more suspension travel, but thats true only if it uses the same tires, wheelbase ,clearence,etc at transfer-case. In other words, if the ratios of the wheelbase, clearence, tire height, etc are same then there would'nt be much of a difference. But like the short WB vehicle has the advantage in making tighter turns, a Long WB has has the advantage of being more balanced, and having a lower center of gravity, therefore making it better where there are lots of inclines, especially rocky terrian and sand heaps.
A one to one 540/ gypsy testing i've never done, but i got a chance to drive the new 540's alongside the old ones, and the 540 sure know it has got has a beautiful wife to conceive such a capable offspring.
I dont have pictures of the 4x4 Boleor at its best job, but i will take a few pictures. The Boleor 4x4 belongs to a cousin of mine, and we regularely go out for hunts together. He meet with an accident, totaling his Bolero and injuring both his knees, but no sooner than he recovered, he bought a new Bolero(surprisingly a new bolero 4x4 still comes in the old shape and peugeot motor), and he is in the process of fixing his old bolero with a shortened wheelbase and a cut-up top. Hes the one who took the original springs of my bolero. Soon enough i'll click some photo of us offroading and surely paste them up.
You were'nt the first one to tell me about the different lenght of the Bolero spring, although i dont seem to remember who did, but anyways we still tried and it bolted right up. An older generation Armada will flex better than the older Jeep for sure and the springs are softer for it(due to the armada having more weight), also even though the armada has the same type of chassis as the 540, it is longer and therefore would even flex a lot more. In the Bolero, the limit is not with the suspension travel, but rather the compressed wheel hits the side rails and that acts as a stopper, with 6.00 tires it flex a hell lot more than it does with the original tires, and still the limit was the wheel arches. If we put some wheel spacers or use a wider axle(the short turning radius of the bolero is due to a wider front than the rear) its sure to flex even more. The first thing we did to our Bolero 4x4 was to chuck out the stab and put firmer shock absorber(which still seems to control ride atleast better than the one provided by no stabs), and put some good mudders(we do a lot of desert offorading, therefore need tires that have more of a paddle profile) an alloy wheel, which provide for a wider thread and greater distance between the tires and rails.
Take care,
Regards,
Bikram
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Old 1st October 2008, 10:16   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus View Post
Hi Vinod,
You dont need to apologise for anything and infact i should apologise if i sounded rude or rather harsh. Please do understand my motive was not to fight over petty issues. Its just that i learnt some things that i would like to share, the same way you are too.
Anyways here is a little bit on suspensions,
Every vehicle had a certain point of center of gravity that messes with its road performance, so to alter that there is only one thing the manufactures can do, harden the suspension to increase the spring rate, which makes for a very hard ride and also decreases the flex/articulations. A higher spring rate also means higher capacity of the suspension to take the load(but that also depends on how many main leaves does the entire weight stand on)

Due to the the problems with the hard ride rather than the limitation of flex(what the manufactures care for flex??), they softened the springs, decrease the spring rate but that gives a rather shaky ride(much like the tata safari), which also increases the rolls, that can be quite dangerous(but its a fine art, if you do something to takle roll, it would change for spinning out the tail, so a balance has to be achieved)

The stabilizers, or anti-roll bars as they are called sometimes, are added to only those springs whose spring rate has been decreased than usual. The stabilizer bars too have a spring rate, but it acts between the 2 sides of the axle. It is set neutral for a certain distance of movement, and only acts after that, so the suspension is allowed to travel independently for a certain limit and after that the stabilizer bars starts acting. What it does is when one side of an axle mives up or down, it by doing so, acts against the spring rate of the stabilizer, which increases as the whell moves futher away,and limits(actually bounces back) when the spring rate of the stabilizer is more than the force(due to weight here) exerted by the wheel, if the wheel is still made to go futher away(if the suspension springs hav'nt reached their limits), then it will also take the other wheel with it in the same direction it is going.
Yes, a longer wheelbase vehicle will have to use more suspension travel, but thats true only if it uses the same tires, wheelbase ,clearence,etc at transfer-case. In other words, if the ratios of the wheelbase, clearence, tire height, etc are same then there would'nt be much of a difference. But like the short WB vehicle has the advantage in making tighter turns, a Long WB has has the advantage of being more balanced, and having a lower center of gravity, therefore making it better where there are lots of inclines, especially rocky terrian and sand heaps.
A one to one 540/ gypsy testing i've never done, but i got a chance to drive the new 540's alongside the old ones, and the 540 sure know it has got has a beautiful wife to conceive such a capable offspring.
I dont have pictures of the 4x4 Boleor at its best job, but i will take a few pictures. The Boleor 4x4 belongs to a cousin of mine, and we regularely go out for hunts together. He meet with an accident, totaling his Bolero and injuring both his knees, but no sooner than he recovered, he bought a new Bolero(surprisingly a new bolero 4x4 still comes in the old shape and peugeot motor), and he is in the process of fixing his old bolero with a shortened wheelbase and a cut-up top. Hes the one who took the original springs of my bolero. Soon enough i'll click some photo of us offroading and surely paste them up.
You were'nt the first one to tell me about the different lenght of the Bolero spring, although i dont seem to remember who did, but anyways we still tried and it bolted right up. An older generation Armada will flex better than the older Jeep for sure and the springs are softer for it(due to the armada having more weight), also even though the armada has the same type of chassis as the 540, it is longer and therefore would even flex a lot more. In the Bolero, the limit is not with the suspension travel, but rather the compressed wheel hits the side rails and that acts as a stopper, with 6.00 tires it flex a hell lot more than it does with the original tires, and still the limit was the wheel arches. If we put some wheel spacers or use a wider axle(the short turning radius of the bolero is due to a wider front than the rear) its sure to flex even more. The first thing we did to our Bolero 4x4 was to chuck out the stab and put firmer shock absorber(which still seems to control ride atleast better than the one provided by no stabs), and put some good mudders(we do a lot of desert offorading, therefore need tires that have more of a paddle profile) an alloy wheel, which provide for a wider thread and greater distance between the tires and rails.
Take care,
Regards,
Bikram

Hi bikram,

Now you and i are on same pane of understanding. I competely agree with you on manufacturers on hardening of springs for roll, handling and load carrying issues.These were my observations on comparing few mahindra models over a period of time

1. New generation bolero had lesser articulation compared to a similar wheel based hardtop model with C section chassis and suspension. On the ramp the side which was on a incline never compressed completely till bump stop on a new bolero as it had roll bar. Another observation was that the total rear vertical travel from bump stop to the lowest point the springs can release was shorter to an older generation hardtop with C section.

2. You would agree that on a jeep or even on older generation chassis and suspension version hardtops the rear suspension travel was more than the front ones due to length of leaves. However on lifting the vehicle on a 2-post lift i observed that the in new rigid axle bolero the rear end lifts sooner than the front ones which is opposite with older generation chassis and suspension combination

3. I feel on articulation front in new bolero rigid axle the shorter travel of rear suspension is compensated by wider front axle and longer springs. Vehicle with wider axle will have better articulation. Hence partly compensates the articulation issue. The center of gravety is lower on new bolero compared to old gen chassis layout. Also roll is better thanks to the new set up. But this takes toll on articulation

4. The NGCS 550 has longer shakles and also the mount on the chassis end is longer than the regular vehicle with same chassis. The reason was to give good articulation with bigger and wider tyres. The front end fender get a chip to accomodate the wider axle articulation which is coverd by plastic fairing. This version with lesser springs as you said flexes more to give better ride over tough terrain. However if you see the same suspension on a NGCS marshal the shakle lenghts are shorter and the springs are harder. Infact a marshal 2000 economy in its stock form has lesser articulation compared to all hardtops. The reason being the compression was not adequate and spring were tuned for carrrying about 10-12 people due to overloading segment this vehicle belongs to. The shakle length was also much shorter.

Now you would think how did i have opportunity to experience so many vehicle types and compare it? I worked with M&M for about 3 years in sevice department. Hence had the opportunity to check out various vehicles.:-)))

Again some where you said the flex of chassis of NGCS is more than the older C section. I thought it was other way round. I think the chassis of newer generation vehicles are built in with limited flex for better handling. You and other 4x4 gurus can eloberate on this point.

I agree with comments like you received about your kid being born under a 4x4, many of nuts like us receieve comments like this. Some one named my son "jeep singh" for instance and some called him a 4wd baby who is about 5 months old now

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Old 28th May 2009, 22:29   #25
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Wow. Now Im new to 4X4s and OTRs. I have a CJ3B RCL from the army disposal with the original petrol Hurricane engine. There is an extra set of coil springs on the rear, obviously due to the RCL being placed there. Im restoring the CJ3B with a tail gate as a regular CJ.

My questions are;

DO i remove the coils from the rear? If yes why and if not why not? I do suppose the ride quality will suffer a lot if they are allowed to exist. Or is it better to relieve the leaf springs of a few leaves to let the ride quality get better but i dont waant to do
that at the expense of it getting in the way of an OTR

What set up should be good for my Jeep as it will not just be an OTR vehicle. I do intend to use her extensively for city driving too.
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Old 29th May 2009, 09:41   #26
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There is an extra set of coil springs on the rear, obviously due to the RCL being placed there.....

DO i remove the coils from the rear? If yes why and if not why not? I do suppose the ride quality will suffer a lot if they are allowed to exist. What set up should be good for my Jeep as it will not just be an OTR vehicle. I do intend to use her extensively for city driving too.
Simple. To make it ride as designed, re-mount the recoiless rifle.

Seriously, this vehicle's ride quality will never be good for the street, for the city. If it were me I would remove the Recoiless stuff, have the upholsterer put a lot of extra foam in your seats and call it a done deal.
This thing was built for off-roading, not sliding and gliding across the subcontinent to McDonalds for a veggy meal. Putting a snazzy suspension on it will be like putting lipstick on a pig. It won't help much. If you have an uncle in the West who is a smuggler maybe you could get some after market stuff to help. Otherwise, it costs a bundle to make a crude off-roader a polished on roader.
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Old 30th May 2009, 19:56   #27
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I want to make it a desirable on roader but will be mainly my offroading, as you call it Pig
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Old 31st May 2009, 01:24   #28
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Here is a picture of a friends (green) 540 with longer shackles and a FC truck front differential rear stock setup and my jeep (black) with stock suspension and cj3b differentials, both checking out articulation. My question is does the length of the differential matter on how much articulation one can get. Check the picture it seem's the tilt angle is a bit more on my jeep.
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Old 31st May 2009, 10:55   #29
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Originally Posted by whicked wheels View Post
Here is a picture of a friends (green) 540 with longer shackles and a FC truck front differential rear stock setup and my jeep (black) with stock suspension and cj3b differentials, both checking out articulation. My question is does the length of the differential matter on how much articulation one can get. Check the picture it seem's the tilt angle is a bit more on my jeep.

Good to see revival of an old thread! The articulation limits will remain the same if you compare both jeeps however your jeep is showing much more tilt because of difference in the front track. It is possible for the green jeep to get the kind of tilt on your vehicle provided it takes up larger obstacle.
In general among two vehicles with stock suspension but with different axle widths, the vehicle with larger axle width will be able to negotiate larger obstacle due to the advantage of greater length of the axles.
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Old 31st May 2009, 11:16   #30
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Thanks Vinod my friends jeep can really take big obstacles, his tyres are also 33'' which give him good ground clearance. Just waiting for his jeep to run in as he just got his engine overhauled then we might do some serious offroading and also check the max articulation we can get.
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