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Old 1st June 2009, 10:33   #31
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I found that the Bolero 4wd s front axle articulation was rather limted as the dristance between the rubber stopper and the axle was very low. This makes the utility of the front axle very limited especially with out a diff lock.

Having said that, if the articulation is increased beyond a point it will reduce the safety of the vehicle on road. So it is always a tradeoff .

I have seen shackles/ shock absorber ends that can be locked or unlocked based on on road or off road application. That might be worth looking at.

With what little experience I have, I would suggest that it is not a good idea to increase the axle articulation beyond a point (unless you plan to take your 4wd on a trailer to your offroading location and back ) . The better option would be to travel in groups, be respectful of the fact that you can conquer every terrain, have a trail boss who is level headed and safety conscious.

The point I am trying to make is that you cannot increase the axle articulation beyond a point without compromising on safety. Dont push it beyond a point.
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Old 1st June 2009, 13:21   #32
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Originally Posted by rrnsss View Post
This makes the utility of the front axle very limited especially with out a diff lock.

I have seen shackles/ shock absorber ends that can be locked or unlocked based on on road or off road application. That might be worth looking at.
Please elaborate, The M&M Bolero/NGCS have one of the highest front Axle articulation, among all the 4WDs manufactured, (Including the Anti-Roll/Sway-Bars).

What tyres were you using?

Shackles/Shock-Absorbers getting 'unlocked' that's result of trail damage.

Do you mean Anti-Roll/Sway Bar Disconnects?

Regards,

Arka
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Old 1st June 2009, 13:49   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrnsss View Post
I found that the Bolero 4wd s front axle articulation was rather limted as the dristance between the rubber stopper and the axle was very low. This makes the utility of the front axle very limited especially with out a diff lock.....


.....The point I am trying to make is that you cannot increase the axle articulation beyond a point without compromising on safety. Dont push it beyond a point.
I agree with you on later point that one should not increase articulatio beyond a point as it may compromise safety!!

However in Bolero Front axle though the distance between the font axle and bump stop is slightly lower but articualtion is better due to wider front axle. However the same cannot be said about the rear axle. Both articualtion and vertical maximum travel is lower on 4wd rear axle with almost same axle width. Having said this Articulation is good for most situations but surely cannot match old M&M's.

I have seen you saying Bolero 4wd is not good offroad elsewhere. Can you substantiate why?
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Old 1st June 2009, 19:44   #34
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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
Simple. To make it ride as designed, re-mount the recoiless rifle.

Seriously, this vehicle's ride quality will never be good for the street, for the city. If it were me I would remove the Recoiless stuff, have the upholsterer put a lot of extra foam in your seats and call it a done deal.
This thing was built for off-roading, not sliding and gliding across the subcontinent to McDonalds for a veggy meal. Putting a snazzy suspension on it will be like putting lipstick on a pig. It won't help much. If you have an uncle in the West who is a smuggler maybe you could get some after market stuff to help. Otherwise, it costs a bundle to make a crude off-roader a polished on roader.
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EDIT!*****EDIT! The modertors wish to state that Team-BHP does not now nor never has condoned smuggling or the applying of cosmetics to lower animals. END***EDIT!
I thought, 'that' lawyer from Harvard had closed the ‘lipstick on pig’ issue for at least 4 years or he thought he did?

(Pig = War veteran, Lipstick = Russia in living room)

But sir what is wrong with putting lipstick on the pig? Adds to the diversity.

Last edited by bliss_now : 1st June 2009 at 19:56.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 11:37   #35
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So what do we all think is the optimal suspension set-up for off-roading performance (in terms of articulation)? Coil-sprung with live-axles?

Has anyone tried this conversion as yet here in India? How difficult would this be in your opinion? (gurus this is meant for you).

It would be very, very interesting if someone could try it out. Maybe it would be a good idea to use a scorpio or safari as a donor vehicle for parts. Wish I could try this out myself but I have a feeling that it's going to be very expensive and time-consuming.

All the best to whoever can carry it off.
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Old 4th June 2009, 17:36   #36
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very informative thread guys...

some more articulation!!!
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Old 4th June 2009, 20:11   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omkar0044 View Post
very informative thread guys...

some more articulation!!!
Welcome on the T-Bhp's 4x4 Section...

Infect we were simply discussing about what we have available in India with our own vehicles and also for the kind off roading we manage/dare/efford to do in India. We all know it is an initial phase and a lot can be done but will take some more time.

Thanks anyways for the pictures from internet.
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Old 4th June 2009, 20:56   #38
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Originally Posted by whicked wheels View Post
Here is a picture of a friends (green) 540 with longer shackles and a FC truck front differential rear stock setup and my jeep (black) with stock suspension and cj3b differentials, both checking out articulation. My question is does the length of the differential matter on how much articulation one can get. Check the picture it seem's the tilt angle is a bit more on my jeep.
your jeep looks stunning. Can I see more pix of your jeep please? PM me for my email id
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Old 6th June 2009, 10:26   #39
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Nice suspension, we need more of these for our roads..
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Last edited by Rehaan : 7th June 2009 at 17:00. Reason: Post moved to appropriate thread & 1 repeat pic removed.
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Old 8th June 2009, 10:23   #40
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Most ugly contortions, with the mods on suspensions, though they have acheived articulation to its maximum. All have either shaved their mudguards of totally taken them off.
Personally I would opt for lesser articulation than these looks.
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Old 25th March 2010, 23:59   #41
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Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
Well i know this coz i have been offroading for quite some time and notice what people around me do. I have been restoring jeeps for quite some time and i own a 65 willys Cj3b LHD, and a 75 RHD Cj3b, both petrol(the Cj3b had been converted to diesel but reverted back).The jeep suspension as it is not a great articulator. As tried on a Ramp a Military jeep or the old willys had a very stiff suspension. You take out springs and limit them to 7 springs at the rear and then its equal to the articulation a gypsy could manage with one wheel on the ramp and the other touching the ground. The front suspension of the Gypsy was better than the classic too, when both of them had the stabilizers intact, and this way the old jeep, willys ,which never had stabilizers,seemed to have a better articulation that both of them, but when we removed the stabilizers of the gypsy it was more flexible than either jeeps.
The Bolero 4x4 has leaf springs front and rear(with stabilizer at the front only), with a lot longer and flater springs than the jeep , therefore making them a way lot more flexible. Also the fact that it uses broader springs than the jeep , helps it make do with a lot lesser springs to lift the same amount of load(and everybody knows lesser spings make for a more flexible vehicle). Even with the stabilizer at the front the Bolero had much more articulation than either of them, and removing the stabilizer caused the wheel to touch the wheel arches much sooner than it did with the stabilizer. Also the fact that when a vehicle articulates,15% of the flexing is done by the chassis. The CJ3B chassis were very rigid, even more than the jeeps before it (the MB,GPW,CJ2A, but not the CJ3A)as they had one crossmember less. The Boleros boxed chassis is a lot more flexible than the Cj although the gypsy comes close(And even the new Army 540/550 have a shortened bolero chassis,with the Boleros open knuckled front axles) And please do not include the Invader here, its got the crappiest rear suspension yet.
As it is, the jeep is not a articulation miracle, and it wasn't meant to be in the first place. It was designed to filfull its primary role of carrying the GI's and their equipment in normal offroad conditions, not the kind of offroad terrian we intend to make them do in OTR's, and since a military vehicle is bound to be abused, and therefore also made to carry heavy loads, the designers by default had to stiffen the chassis and add a few more springs than what normally would have sufficed. I have kept both the jeep and the Bolero long evough to know which is better. Whats more is the Bolero seemed to have just the right amount of weight distribution which helps it in overcoming obstacles. In the Jeep the majority of the weight is placed at the front making the rear feather light, which adds hurdles to the marginal controlling qualities of the jeep, due to its light weight.
And when i said the indian scene is not too keen on Articulation is because there are very few people who think of doing up the suspension before they think of purcuring diff-locks. If you add a suspension lift, the extra arch in the spring diminishes articulation even further. What it needs is a broader, longer and flater set of spring or just a coil spring makeover. Even if you talk of adding offroad shock absorbers for better articulation ,then leaving only a handful of people , who are thoroughly into offroad, nobody else even thinks about it. Most of the people in India just want to own a jeep for the image it portrays. Offroad for them is a stroll on the beach or at max a safari or a hunting expedition. The maximum alteration they do is to put in more lights and maybe add a winch, purely for cosmetic reasons, never venturing anywhere near the suspension. And i dont blame them either,coz unlike America, most people here are much happier getting the job done by mechanics, never bothering about how things work, so they dont understand the concepts. When people start venturing out on OTR expeditions, its only then that they realize what they have been missing after they see what other people do to their jeeps and try to learn from them. And how many people here are offroaders, only a few people that i see often enough. And then there are a few more who aint offroaders but do understand mechanics quite well, most being restorers. Ask the rest and they would'nt know how a diff lock works, let alone the mods that need to be done to increase articulation.
please dont think i intend to offend anybody, and if its seems so, try and understand that it was not my intention at all. All i am trying to do is share imformation with like minded people.
Regards,
Bikram

Hello Bikram,
I am a newbie so please bear with me.
I would like to ask you some questions at a personal level. If you don't mind sharing information, I would appreciate if you could give me your personal email. You can write to me at dr.ericdsouza@gmail.com
If my ideas are sound, feel free to publish them in this forum for the benefit of all the members, until then, we should perhaps chat in private.
Hoping you have some time to spare for like-minded people.
Awaiting to hear from you.
Regards.

Glock17
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Old 26th March 2010, 10:21   #42
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@ Brutus - Very nice writup

@ Di1in - You have to understand that the pics you have posted are of hardcore offroaders.
1) These are NOT used as daily drives. Most of us here in India use our 4X4 as DD's too (I have a Swift diesel yet I use the gypsy more)
2) Most (if not all) of these rigs are not driven to the OTR spot but rather put on a trailer and towed there.
3) Most importantly in the US/Aus etc, you get ready Off-the-shelf kits for these mods, and these mods are tried and tested.

I am confident that we will do such extreme mods for the appropriate terrains too but that day is in the future(and not too distant I hope).

Cheers
GB
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Old 31st January 2011, 19:41   #43
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Arka, I am not talking about RTI figures here, I am asking what has IFS to do with rear lifting legs, stock gypsies do that pretty easily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Comparison i had in mind was watching the solid axle 550 Vs Thar at the very same spot. I feel Thar with better rear articulation compared to 550, should lift leg later on. Right? That is not what i saw.
Hi Spike,

If one Front Right wheel is lifted up the ramp, and the opposite one (Front Left) does not touch the ground under the Ramp, the vehicle will not be able to move up further, with out
i) upsetting the Centre of Gravity and toppling
ii) Lifting up the Rear Wheel to allow the Front Left to touch the Ground to stabilize the Centre of Gravity.

Now since the Thar CRDe IFS has much lesser wheel travel than the Rear Solid Axle Leaf Spring, there will be a tendency of lifting the Rear Wheels, if the vehicle has to maintain its Centre of Gravity.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attach...g-dsc09502.jpg (Too Big)







The pics may help to explain the above point.

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by Samurai : 31st January 2011 at 19:49. Reason: fixed images
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Old 31st January 2011, 19:59   #44
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Arka, I can understand your point of RTI. How will longitudinal and lateral weight transfer effect this? You are talking about lateral weight transfers right? The opposite was being told here. Can you tell me how / how much CG shifts when?

a) Loaded and lifted diagonally
b) Loaded and lifted from one end (say front or rear)

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Old 31st January 2011, 20:23   #45
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

I understand lifted, what is this loaded and lifted?

Spikey, to put in layman terms...

A vehicle with zero articulation will see its CG shifting linearly with the lift.
A vehicle with good articulation delays the shift of CG when the tyre is lifted.

Here is a graph for you.

Name:  articulation.jpg
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Size:  36.7 KB

No numbers, just behavior. If you want to get any more technical, only Sutripta will understand and discuss, rest of us will back off.
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