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Old 3rd February 2011, 12:19   #106
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

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Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
...
how ? can you be Thar specific
By trying to maintain the distance between the two wheels constant under different road conditions.

Quote:
my feeling is ,if that bar is removed both sides will be acting independently .So if one wheel goes over a rock ,it will move upward in the wheel well & the opposite will still hold the ground .

As there will be no connection bet the two( the anti roll bar) it will be really an IFS

need to think deeper here , will be beneficial

Sudarshan

P.S. your IFS picture , third frame
I think removing the anti-roll bar will seriously affect the Thar's on-road characteristics. The great drive/handling quality of the Thar may disappear once you remove the anti-roll bar. In an off-roading situation, it will definitely help. By how much, Spike can say. It may not be worth it.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 12:26   #107
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

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Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
how ? can you be Thar specific

my feeling is ,if that bar is removed both sides will be acting independently .So if one wheel goes over a rock ,it will move upward in the wheel well & the opposite will still hold the ground .

As there will be no connection bet the two( the anti roll bar) it will be really an IFS

need to think deeper here , will be beneficial

Sudarshan

P.S. your IFS picture , third frame
Hi Sudarshan JEE (My ApoloJEEs)

When the IFS arms move up and down the vehicle track changes, the Stabilizer Bar also ensures, that the Arms don't move too much up or down.
1) When Both Arms a fully dropped = Minimum Track
2) When Both Arms are fully compressed = Maximum Track

Remember the M151 -- Forums for anyone interested in the M151 Jeep • View topic - M151 Jeep chassis pictures

Also since the Track Bar is connected to the Chassis it will push the lower arms down (more weight) increasing Traction

Regards,

Arka

IFS vs. SFA

Last edited by ex670c : 3rd February 2011 at 12:31.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 13:02   #108
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

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Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
think what will happen if the Thar's ,anti roll / stabiliser bar is removed .

I had asked this before ,

IMHO , at the cost of some high road speed,(specially cornering & above 100 kmh) this will give wonderful articulation at front & the wheels will hold good for more traction .

Sudarshan

@ 72 Bullet I feel similar,


Sudarshan Jee,

A point to be noted is also IFS design. If the Thar is to have IFS with comparable articulation to a solid axle design, it will have to be reworked completely.

All those specialist 4X4 IFSs with massive articulation have the diff. pumpkin riht in the middle with no axle tubes to speak of, and then really long axle half-shafts, arms etc. in order to provide the articulation. Further, they would also have special CV joints that will allow the power transmission under extreme angles.

Arka's link Remember the M151 -- Forums for anyone interested in the M151 Jeep • View topic - M151 Jeep chassis pictures shows the kind of independent suspension that would make for a good amount of articulation (centralised diff with long half-axles and arms).

On the other hand the Thar IFS (have not seen it, but I assume it is similar to the Scorpio) has an offset pumpkin and then a fair length of axle tubes which is basically bolted to the chassis. This design does not allow for very long shafts or arms and thereby limits the articulation.

Pictures of Scorpio IFS can be seen on Allan's thread Extreme Power customizes a "Scorpio 4x4 AT"

Also, removing the anti-roll/stabilizer bar on the Thar may improve the articulation, but will the CV joints be able to hold up?

Ideal would be if M&M customisation could provide a heavy-duty/off-road IFS to deal with the articulation and off-road stresses problem.

Last edited by '72 Bullet : 3rd February 2011 at 13:27. Reason: missed out on something
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Old 3rd February 2011, 13:23   #109
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

Summing it up, Solid axle has a profound advantage in terrains that may extract every once of that additional articulation ones vehicle is capable of producing.....like boulder ridden rocky terrains, severely undulated ground for ex! All the other situations (slush/sand/ice/undulations) I think IFS plays the same role as Solid Axle but with a better ride quality. My apprehension is based on 1 to 1 comparison hence quality of components is not in picture here. IFS has more components making it more vulnerable from that stand point BUT if its engineered well with good components I dont see any disadvantage. IFS infact stands at an advantage in most other terrains apart from the above mentioned coz it aids better steering control with R&P system and also aids better stability due to the lack of shock transfer from one wheel to another under situations that effect one wheel at a time.

P.S: If Im not wrong totally the top 3 teams that won the Dakar this time are running IFS.

Loved this pic:
Mahindra Scorpio doing its part at the Dakar Rally 2010
Name:  Scoprio pulling aprilia truck.jpg
Views: 721
Size:  109.5 KB

Follow it here: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intl-m...me-images.html (Dakar Rally 2010 : Some images)

Last edited by The Wolf : 3rd February 2011 at 13:37.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 13:41   #110
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

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Summing it up, .. If Im not wrong totally the top 3 teams that won the Dakar this time are running IFS.
Ritesh, wow, what a simple and easy decision taken

If one gets factory support to do any trail / raid / Championship and did NOT have to worry over costs, then what you say is true!

I'd prefer Solid Axle Coil any day to IFS tough!!
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Old 3rd February 2011, 13:47   #111
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

I jacked up my landy a little ( 14" ) see the pics .

I jacked up the front RH wheel , results

1) rear two wheels were on ground

2) rear left suspension got compressed fully

3) see the front left wheel its angled & lost it inside 1.5" of tyre contact


Articulating on Articulation-bhp1.jpg

Articulating on Articulation-b3.jpg

Articulating on Articulation-b5.jpg


@ Arka , from your same link , what I was trying to say that , something like this will happen if Thar's anti roll bar be removed


Name:  ssp1.jpg
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Size:  69.7 KB

@Arka & pjbiju , have a look at this I don't think the bar holds the track ,IMHO it connects the two sides & forces them to act uniformly (Up or Down movement ) not completely independent . Now if you remove this the on road performance is going to get hit .

This is Thar ( courtesy bhp review )

Articulating on Articulation-ssp2.jpg

Sudarshan
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Old 3rd February 2011, 13:47   #112
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

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Ritesh, wow, what a simple and easy decision taken

If one gets factory support to do any trail / raid / Championship and did NOT have to worry over costs, then what you say is true!
Hey Vikram...

So do you mean to say that the factory teams will invest in something that will break easily, then fix it just coz they have the money from the sponsors? I dont think so mate... These team that you are referring to will invest in the best in the world, without any compromise, mercilessly.....and then invest in things if they break and then never repeat that mistake again

Speaking about my personal preference if it calls for: I love both and I'd chose to be discrete in varying circumstances/situations coz one cannot hold a candle to the other in its favorable turf.

Last edited by The Wolf : 3rd February 2011 at 13:49.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 14:08   #113
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

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Hey Vikram...

So do you mean to say that the factory teams will invest in something that will break easily, then fix it just coz they have the money from the sponsors? I dont think so mate... These team that you are referring to will invest in the best in the world, without any compromise, mercilessly.....and then invest in things if they break and then never repeat that mistake again
I agree, factory teams abroad invest and improve their R&D by participating in World class events - They dont care much about costs at "that" point in time. Firstly, a design has to prove its worth in real world testing grounds such as the Paris - Dakar etc ..

Once a design has proved capable, it moves onto production where costing comes in and puts the axe on specs. This is a harsh reality and even our beloved THAR faces this.

Personally, the THAR is AWESOME in generating 26.5 Kgm from "that" engine - really awesome. But it ends there with the rest of the build and Q levels real looooooww.

I am more kinked about the "offset" steering, No HT, No AC, No CL, No ....

I understand from the detailed discussions i had with Vinod that I WILL BE SATISFIED...but when?
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Old 3rd February 2011, 15:21   #114
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

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Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
3) see the front left wheel its angled & lost it inside 1.5" of tyre contact
Articulating on Articulation-bhp1.jpg
This won't happen in IFS right? The left wheel will remain straight.

Source: Mona Lisa Vito
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Old 3rd February 2011, 15:39   #115
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

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This won't happen in IFS right? The left wheel will remain straight.

Source: Mona Lisa Vito
have a look at this again , My Q is will the Thar suspension act like this if the anti roll bar is removed .


Name:  ssp1.jpg
Views: 570
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you can see that the right wheel is not too much angled & its almost fully on ground, so my answer is yes

Sudarshan
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Old 3rd February 2011, 15:47   #116
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Hey Vikram...

So do you mean to say that the factory teams will invest in something that will break easily, then fix it just coz they have the money from the sponsors? I dont think so mate... These team that you are referring to will invest in the best in the world, without any compromise, mercilessly.....and then invest in things if they break and then never repeat that mistake again

Speaking about my personal preference if it calls for: I love both and I'd chose to be discrete in varying circumstances/situations coz one cannot hold a candle to the other in its favorable turf.
Hi Wolf,

The Race VW Toureg and BMW's are totally different beasts, compared to their more civil avatars.

The Suspension & Space-Frame Chassis, the Dampers alone cost a few Lakhs EACH!!!!!

Also check how many times they get the suspension changed during the raid (Dakar).

Also in the Same Paris-Dakar, please check out the Kamaz vs Tatra.

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by ex670c : 3rd February 2011 at 15:49.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 15:48   #117
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

Ms.Vito can't be wrong. It is funny, I first learned about LSD and the difference between solid axle and IFS from her. As did many in my generation.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 15:59   #118
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

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Ms.Vito can't be wrong. It is funny, I first learned about LSD and the difference between solid axle and IFS from her. As did many in my generation.
who is this 'Teacher' of yours ?

I am Curious

may be I will learn some more , except graphs & curves

Sudarshan
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Old 3rd February 2011, 16:02   #119
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Default Re: Articulating on Articulation

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who is this 'Teacher' of yours ?

I am Curious

may be I will learn some more , except graphs & curves

Sudarshan
A friend of my Cousin, Vinny.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 16:07   #120
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A friend of my Cousin, Vinny.
Ahh OK , will do ,

one more Question Sir I hope she is not a 'hitler's dentist' IS SHE ?

Sudarshan

P.S. dear mods please delete this if not worth ( but only after a few people have read it )
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