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Old 26th September 2008, 00:10   #1
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Default Articulating on Articulation

Well i know this coz i have been offroading for quite some time and notice what people around me do. I have been restoring jeeps for quite some time and i own a 65 willys Cj3b LHD, and a 75 RHD Cj3b, both petrol(the Cj3b had been converted to diesel but reverted back).The jeep suspension as it is not a great articulator. As tried on a Ramp a Military jeep or the old willys had a very stiff suspension. You take out springs and limit them to 7 springs at the rear and then its equal to the articulation a gypsy could manage with one wheel on the ramp and the other touching the ground. The front suspension of the Gypsy was better than the classic too, when both of them had the stabilizers intact, and this way the old jeep, willys ,which never had stabilizers,seemed to have a better articulation that both of them, but when we removed the stabilizers of the gypsy it was more flexible than either jeeps.
The Bolero 4x4 has leaf springs front and rear(with stabilizer at the front only), with a lot longer and flater springs than the jeep , therefore making them a way lot more flexible. Also the fact that it uses broader springs than the jeep , helps it make do with a lot lesser springs to lift the same amount of load(and everybody knows lesser spings make for a more flexible vehicle). Even with the stabilizer at the front the Bolero had much more articulation than either of them, and removing the stabilizer caused the wheel to touch the wheel arches much sooner than it did with the stabilizer. Also the fact that when a vehicle articulates,15% of the flexing is done by the chassis. The CJ3B chassis were very rigid, even more than the jeeps before it (the MB,GPW,CJ2A, but not the CJ3A)as they had one crossmember less. The Boleros boxed chassis is a lot more flexible than the Cj although the gypsy comes close(And even the new Army 540/550 have a shortened bolero chassis,with the Boleros open knuckled front axles) And please do not include the Invader here, its got the crappiest rear suspension yet.
As it is, the jeep is not a articulation miracle, and it wasn't meant to be in the first place. It was designed to filfull its primary role of carrying the GI's and their equipment in normal offroad conditions, not the kind of offroad terrian we intend to make them do in OTR's, and since a military vehicle is bound to be abused, and therefore also made to carry heavy loads, the designers by default had to stiffen the chassis and add a few more springs than what normally would have sufficed. I have kept both the jeep and the Bolero long evough to know which is better. Whats more is the Bolero seemed to have just the right amount of weight distribution which helps it in overcoming obstacles. In the Jeep the majority of the weight is placed at the front making the rear feather light, which adds hurdles to the marginal controlling qualities of the jeep, due to its light weight.
And when i said the indian scene is not too keen on Articulation is because there are very few people who think of doing up the suspension before they think of purcuring diff-locks. If you add a suspension lift, the extra arch in the spring diminishes articulation even further. What it needs is a broader, longer and flater set of spring or just a coil spring makeover. Even if you talk of adding offroad shock absorbers for better articulation ,then leaving only a handful of people , who are thoroughly into offroad, nobody else even thinks about it. Most of the people in India just want to own a jeep for the image it portrays. Offroad for them is a stroll on the beach or at max a safari or a hunting expedition. The maximum alteration they do is to put in more lights and maybe add a winch, purely for cosmetic reasons, never venturing anywhere near the suspension. And i dont blame them either,coz unlike America, most people here are much happier getting the job done by mechanics, never bothering about how things work, so they dont understand the concepts. When people start venturing out on OTR expeditions, its only then that they realize what they have been missing after they see what other people do to their jeeps and try to learn from them. And how many people here are offroaders, only a few people that i see often enough. And then there are a few more who aint offroaders but do understand mechanics quite well, most being restorers. Ask the rest and they would'nt know how a diff lock works, let alone the mods that need to be done to increase articulation.
please dont think i intend to offend anybody, and if its seems so, try and understand that it was not my intention at all. All i am trying to do is share imformation with like minded people.
Regards,
Bikram
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Old 26th September 2008, 01:14   #2
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Oh, I didn't know Bolero had better articulation than the normal CJ3B and Gypsy. Thanks for the info.

I am guessing you are Bikram Sandhu from Jeep Thrills. I have seen your highly knowledgeable posts there. Good to see you posting here.
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Old 26th September 2008, 06:55   #3
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Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post
awwww! whats the fun in that?
take some friends with you, and go with a bunch of 4X4s, they will bail you out if necessary.


@DD- its amazing what you get away with!
It's my stealth blue jeans that let me lurk.

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Originally Posted by brutus View Post
And please do not include the Invader here, its got the crappiest rear suspension yet.
I do not want to go too far off topic here but, brutus, I would like to see a whole thread on your ideas on suspension. I would also like to know what is wrong with Invader's. Not to argue the point but for my education. This post of yours is one of the best I have seen here for awhile. I would like to see you expand and amplify on a separate suspension thread. You are very articulate on...er...articulation.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:28   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
I do not want to go too far off topic here but, brutus, I would like to see a whole thread on your ideas on suspension. I would also like to know what is wrong with Invader's. Not to argue the point but for my education. This post of yours is one of the best I have seen here for awhile. I would like to see you expand and amplify on a separate suspension thread. You are very articulate on...er...articulation.
I second that. new thread on the bolero's off roading abilities please, and about suspension/articulation
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:50   #5
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Originally Posted by brutus View Post
In the Jeep the majority of the weight is placed at the front making the rear feather light, which adds hurdles to the marginal controlling qualities of the jeep, due to its light weight.
Just a thought..
Isnít the fuel tank located at the rear, so having a near full tank on off-road expeditions should help, shouldnít it? Or else, would all that fuel shifting around be a deterrent?

Was wondering if fuel in the tank can work like sand bags at the back of the vehicle.
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Old 26th September 2008, 10:46   #6
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Originally Posted by Spinnerr View Post
Just a thought..
Isnít the fuel tank located at the rear, so having a near full tank on off-road expeditions should help, shouldnít it? Or else, would all that fuel shifting around be a deterrent?

Was wondering if fuel in the tank can work like sand bags at the back of the vehicle.
Its amazing to see the extent to which people can think.

Nothing personal dude but i guess carrying sand bags might still be a better idea than working on the fuel tank funda!
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Old 26th September 2008, 12:18   #7
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Default Jeeps articulation less than Gypsy and others??

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Originally Posted by brutus View Post
Well i know this coz i have been offroading for quite some time and notice what people around me do. I have been restoring jeeps for quite some time and i own a 65 willys Cj3b LHD, and a 75 RHD Cj3b, both petrol(the Cj3b had been converted to diesel but reverted back).The jeep suspension as it is not a great articulator. As tried on a Ramp a Military jeep or the old willys had a very stiff suspension. You take out springs and limit them to 7 springs at the rear and then its equal to the articulation a gypsy could manage with one wheel on the ramp and the other touching the ground. The front suspension of the Gypsy was better than the classic too, when both of them had the stabilizers intact, and this way the old jeep, willys ,which never had stabilizers,seemed to have a better articulation that both of them, but when we removed the stabilizers of the gypsy it was more flexible than either jeeps
Brutus,
I disagree with you on saying Jeeps articualtions is less than or equal to Gypsy.I fail to believe you actually tested the vehicles on ramp to support your claim. The simple reason being the overall suspension travel of the Jeep (include any jeep you want) is greater than the gypsy. Simple, place your fist with thumbs up over the axle on rear axle of gypsy and measure the distance between the bump stop and the axle. Definately the jeep has better travel distance than Gypsy or the bolero. Iam claiming this both on my visual experience and as per my personal off roading experience



Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
The Bolero 4x4 has leaf springs front and rear(with stabilizer at the front only), with a lot longer and flater springs than the jeep , therefore making them a way lot more flexible. Also the fact that it uses broader springs than the jeep , helps it make do with a lot lesser springs to lift the same amount of load(and everybody knows lesser spings make for a more flexible vehicle). Even with the stabilizer at the front the Bolero had much more articulation than either of them, and removing the stabilizer caused the wheel to touch the wheel arches much sooner than it did with the stabilizer. Also the fact that when a vehicle articulates,15% of the flexing is done by the chassis. The CJ3B chassis were very rigid, even more than the jeeps before it (the MB,GPW,CJ2A, but not the CJ3A)as they had one crossmember less. The Boleros boxed chassis is a lot more flexible than the Cj although the gypsy comes close(And even the new Army 540/550 have a shortened bolero chassis,with the Boleros open knuckled front axles) And please do not include the Invader here, its got the crappiest rear suspension yet.

brutus,
Please straighten the rear leaf of a 4x4 bolero and check the length vis-a vis a regular jeep. The length is shorter. In fact it is not know to many that a 2wd bolero has longest leafs of all the mahindras produced but not the 4wd ones. The front leaf is longer to compensate this. Also Bolero's wheel base is larger. Hence if you actually take it up the ramp a Bolero with or without the stabilizer bar it will lift the wheel sooner than the short wheel base counter part. Further on bolero the leaf springs at rear are mounted closer to the ends of axle. This would make the the overall articulation lesser than the regular jeep axle which has spring mounts closer to the differential. Further the additional length of the springs on any jeep other than bolero and invader makes it for a better articulation.


I agree on the fact that axle articualtion is not the contention to indian manufacturers. Thats why if u see mahindra vehicles the articulation iof thieir newer vehicles are becoming worse. Though force gurkha has little suspension travel, especially in the front it makes up with diff locks

For eg. CJ 3b & Cj 500d had the best articulation, MM540 followed next as the same length of springs moved near axle ends post 1989 models, NGCS had even lesser travel and every one knows about invader. Even scorpio getaway has one of the worst articualtion though scorpio has respectable articualtion among front IFS vehicles.Pickups have less articualtion due to load requirement.
Further in your case a suspension that is not well tuned or has sagging springs will have lesser articulation. But if you compare the best of the stock suspension among gypsy, bolero and regular jeeps including ford, 3A . 3B etc etc, JEEPS RULE!!

will post some pics and vides to suport my claim

Note from Mod: Quotes fixed. The correct syntax => [quote=persons name]text text text text[/quote]

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Old 26th September 2008, 12:45   #8
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Brutus,

The following video shows the Gypsy lifting wheel even in small ditches



Another video,



Gypsy makes it up with its powerful engine and light weight with little articuation and opendiff.

Last edited by Rehaan : 27th September 2008 at 01:13. Reason: Posts merged. Please use the EDIT button to add to an existing post within 20 minutes instead of postnig another consecutive post.
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Old 26th September 2008, 13:27   #9
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See the articulation of mm540!!! unfortunately i dont have the video of the same section done by blue thunders gypsy. I remember telling him lifting one wheel in air when doing the same section

Quote:
Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post
I second that. new thread on the bolero's off roading abilities please, and about suspension/articulation

Theres nothing wrong with invaders suspension. The only problem is rear having less articulation. The front leaf are long and shakle is also longer compared to other jeeps. The rear is a inverted leaf of axle set up. the set up is soft and comfortable. But little articulation.

Rest of the vehicle no problem at all except for build wuality of the vehicle. It starts making noises well beore its elder brother regular bolero.

Last edited by Rehaan : 27th September 2008 at 01:13. Reason: Posts merged. Please use the EDIT button to add to an existing post within 20 minutes instead of postnig another consecutive post.
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Old 26th September 2008, 14:33   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Theres nothing wrong with invaders suspension. The only problem is rear having less articulation. The front leaf are long and shakle is also longer compared to other jeeps. The rear is a inverted leaf of axle set up. the set up is soft and comfortable. But little articulation.

Rest of the vehicle no problem at all except for build wuality of the vehicle. It starts making noises well beore its elder brother regular bolero.
As far as hard core off roading then, the Invader does have a problem with its rear suspension. How would you fix it? Fabricate a coil set up? What is a practical solution? I am asking as a person who is seriously thinking of buying an Invader since it has a mdi3200 engine, disc brakes and 5 speed tranny, right?
Build quality? I think it must be built on the same production line as the Bolero since it is so similar.
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Old 26th September 2008, 15:22   #11
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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
As far as hard core off roading then, the Invader does have a problem with its rear suspension. How would you fix it? Fabricate a coil set up? What is a practical solution? I am asking as a person who is seriously thinking of buying an Invader since it has a mdi3200 engine, disc brakes and 5 speed tranny, right?
Build quality? I think it must be built on the same production line as the Bolero since it is so similar.

Unfortunately you cannot fix it!!! If it was underslung spring set up one can increase the langth of shakle and improve the travel but not in invaders case.

Having said this invader has much generous articulation front and rear combined compared to a gypsy in stock condition. Hence go ahead in taking one as it wouldnt let you down severely on wheel articulation alone.

Though the invader is built on the same bolero platform it isnt as rigid as bolero. Rear tail gate especially rattles a lot over a period of time. Also with full load rear bottoms out on uneven surfaces. adding a leaf will sove the problem.

Invader has one of the best ride comfort compared to any short chassis jeep. The 4wd suspension set up on invader is better to a 2wd set up as in 2wd invader there have been complains of rear bouncing over obstacles. In 2wd case the front and rear suspension isnt as optimised as in 4wd rigid axle set up.
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Old 26th September 2008, 22:15   #12
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Hi Mr. Vinod,
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Brutus,
I disagree with you on saying Jeeps articualtions is less than or equal to Gypsy.I fail to believe you actually tested the vehicles on ramp to support your claim.
So do you mean to say that i am a lier.
Anyways, leave that alone, coz you can believe what ever you want to, and I'll explain whatever all i can to you.
Firstly ,you are greatly mistaking suspension travel with articulation. The distance between the bump stop and the axle is the limit of vertical suspension travel ,not atriculation. Articulation is the independent movement of each side of the axle against each other. Even after one side of he axle had touched the bump stop the other side still goes lower, and the limit to that depends on the stabilizer/anti sway bar, if and, and the stiffness of the spring. also note that some springs are made stiffer when they are made to do without a stabilizer bar, so that it prevents the sway at turns but the disadvantage is that these spring have less flex. Also some springs have a helper leaf (usually the last leaf), whose purpose besides helping with the load when the vehicle lifts too much and literally sits down on its leaves, is to limit the downward travel.As for the distance between the bump stop and the axle,on a Jeep(any flatfender) you would really have to load up the jeep to get the axle to touch the bump stop or on the other hand ,you would have to take out some leaf springs to get a lower spring rates which would otherwise even bring the distance between the axle and bump-stop lower. I do have 2 Jeeps(65 and 71 model petrols), so i would not un-necessaryly opt for the Gypsy, which i dont prefer to use for offroading, but nonetheless, in terms of articulation, it can teach the jeep a thing or 2. The jeep has a very heavily arched spring and then again it has way too many springs which are provided to get the spring rate up. A Gypsy on the other hand has a few springs and they are flatter. The more arch you have in a spring, the lesser it will flex,therefore a straighter spring will always flex more. Go ask any offroader abroad who done a spring lift and he will tell you that the flex rate has gone down. And since you seem more interested in the suspension travel, and the distance between the axle and the bump stop, then let me tell you my friend that on my 65 Willys Cj3B that has 12 leaves the travel is 5.25"("= inch), the 71 Jeep that has 9 brand new leaves(as they come from the manufacturer) has 5" of travel, but i beleive they will sag after some time as they are brand new right now(but they are old model springs with the tapered ends, which used to come with MB/GPW's and M110/110 trailers, and the springs on the 65 Willys are not exactly sagged, but still a little lower than what they would have been if they were brand new), the 71 Jeep has a RCL chassis, and therefore it came with 12 leaves and and a coil spring on the rear, and the travel on it was 6.25". The Bolero when stock and as i measured before getting the springs changed to the ones of the pickup had a travel of 6" and now with the pickup leaf springs the travel is 7.25". I believe you can figure the rest yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post

brutus,
Please straighten the rear leaf of a 4x4 bolero and check the length vis-a vis a regular jeep. The length is shorter. In fact it is not know to many that a 2wd bolero has longest leafs of all the mahindras produced but not the 4wd ones. The front leaf is longer to compensate this. Also Bolero's wheel base is larger. Hence if you actually take it up the ramp a Bolero with or without the stabilizer bar it will lift the wheel sooner than the short wheel base counter part. Further on bolero the leaf springs at rear are mounted closer to the ends of axle. This would make the the overall articulation lesser than the regular jeep axle which has spring mounts closer to the differential. Further the additional length of the springs on any jeep other than bolero and invader makes it for a better articulation.
I agree on the fact that axle articualtion is not the contention to indian manufacturers. Thats why if u see mahindra vehicles the articulation iof thieir newer vehicles are becoming worse. Though force gurkha has little suspension travel, especially in the front it makes up with diff locks
For eg. CJ 3b & Cj 500d had the best articulation, MM540 followed next as the same length of springs moved near axle ends post 1989 models, NGCS had even lesser travel and every one knows about invader. Even scorpio getaway has one of the worst articualtion though scorpio has respectable articualtion among front IFS vehicles.Pickups have less articualtion due to load requirement.
Further in your case a suspension that is not well tuned or has sagging springs will have lesser articulation. But if you compare the best of the stock suspension among gypsy, bolero and regular jeeps including ford, 3A . 3B etc etc, JEEPS RULE!!

will post some pics and vides to suport my claim
The rear leaf on the Bolero is 50" long(thats what i checked with a measuring tape on my original Bolero springs so i could know what differences were there after i put the pickup springs, but it might be a inch longer or shorter than the limit at max). On the CJ3B the front springs are 36.25" long and the rear 42" long(i do have 2 Cj3bs, a 65 and a 71 model, as i told you in the beginning of the post) and therefore the Bolero springs are a good 8 inches longer, so next time please read the previous mail carefully so i dont have to repeat things and please try to keep your facts/info right(try using the net for specifications and other information if you cannot get it first hand). And yes about the 4x4 springs of the bolero, Well 2 months ago i put Mahindra Pickup springs on my Bolero to get some lift as i was using Scorpio wheels and tires and therefore, the tires would touch the wheel arch when the Bolero was loaded with a heavy trailer load. I gave my old springs to my cousin who has a 4x4 bolero and it fit just fine.
And yes, what does a ramp test have to do with the wheelbase??? The test, infact, is to take one wheel of a single axle as high as you can while the other wheel still touches the ground. This is samething you can do by lifting one side of the axle by a jack(if its long enough), till the other wheel is about to lift off the ground.There is another Ramp test(done by professional offroaders)where they check the total articulation of the vehicle(hence even chassis flex comes into play along with the springs), but theres no point doing that test to stock vehicles, coz as they come, the stock springs of a vehicle are made stiff, not only coz it needs to lift weight, but also it needs to travel at high speeds so handling has to be taken care of, and by using stiffer springs , they can make do with minimum stabilizer bar stiffness to compromise its offroad use very much. The only vehicles that make do with softer springs soas to not compromise offroad performance are vehicles like the Nissan PatrolGQ/GU, which had a in-cabin switch for disconnecting the stabilizer bars for off-road use, and engage it againg for on-road use, just by a flick of a switch, or even the LandRover Defender, with the Air leveling suspension any swaybar disconnects. Thats called articulation, not the vertical travel as you are trying to put forward by stating the distance between the bump stop and the axle. The stabilizer or the anti-sway bar as its sometimes called, does not limit the wheel travel, but the articulation, as it forces one wheel in the same direction as the wheel on the other side of the axle. If 1 wheel goes up, the wheel on the other side goes up too,and vice-versa, but there is some flexiability as designed by the manufacter so as to allow a some bit of independent movement of the wheels against each other, but it limits that further than that. The motive of a sway bar is to prevent a vehicle from toppling over at high speeds.
Also you seem to know the effects a wider spring hanging point has on the articulation flexing, and when you say the Gypsy has less articulation than the MM540/550, then you are trying to overlook the fact that the MM540/550 has a wider hang point on the axle than the Gypsy.
Talking about the MM540/550(lets just call it the 540), the new 540's given to the Army(2005 models and later) have a shortened Bolero chassis and if you ask any Fauji about the differences he felt between the new and the old 540, he will certainly tell you how much he felt, the new one flexes. Not only that, it also adds the advantage of more chassis flex, that the older jeeps suffered due to a much stiffer chassis. Earlier when offoraders designed chassis frames, they had to keep in mind the purpose of the vehicle and the load it would lift. For carrying more load, the chassis had to be strong and for offroading, it had to flex, so the designers would have to strike a compromise between the 2, so it would become like jack of all trades,good at none. The modern chassis frames are different. Though its still a compromise, but not to that extent. The chassis of the Bolero with boxed side rails and tubular cross members, is twice as flexible that the Jeep chassis for the same amount of strenght as a jeep chassis has. Coming back to what you said on wider hang points, the Bolero has 30" of distance between the springs and the CJ3B has 26.5", thats a 3.5" of difference between a spring set that is 8" longer, has rubber/polyurethane bushes(the non-greaseable ones) at the mounts that add additional flex, has far less springs(6 springs), and a lot straighter than the Jeep spring set that is far shorter( 42' rear), has a solid bronse/plastic bush, has a lot more springs (9 from the factory, 12 for extra load), and a lot more arched spring set. Anybody abroad, whos into thorough offroading and has a short wheelbase flatfender or a Cj5/6/M38A1, firstly swaps the springs, and no, not for lift to fit larger tires which he could also get from a shakle lift or spring over or even a body lift, but for flex. Also there is something else you are forgetting, or rather a very important point.
Again let me tell you, normal jeeps have about 9 springs at the rear, mine had 12 spring coz i took the chassis from a RCL jeep and it also had additional coil springs. I removed the coil springs and limited the rear spring to 9 and even then it could not articulate as much as the Bolero did. My friends Classic has 7 springs and a set of 33" mud terrians(pity he does'nt like offroading at all, just the style), and it does'nt surpass the Boleros flex. Check again ,my friend, a Bolero flexes more that a CJ 3b & Cj 500d would. What i state is mostly my experiances, that i have first hand, by experimently and observing, but mostly by trail and error, coz you just dont learn until you mess up quite badly. And also, unlike you people who go for off-roading in groups and have all the fun, i dont have neither the luxury nor the luck, coz people in Punjab, even though great fans of jeeps, are more interested in jeeps with fat rubber and Toyota diesels(so no 4x4's), and yes, they are always fashion conscious, so more worried about their, ''oh so expensive'' clothes getting dirty(comm'om man, you do get dirty if you even want to go anywhere close to something called offroading), so the only chance i get to go offroad with other people is in hunting trips(which doesn't have quite that much to do with offroading anyway, but you could call it cross-country driving). Otherwise, i go for offroading alone or with a friend on a single Jeep most of the times, and therefore, i know if i get stuck i will have a lot of trouble getting out coz of no other jeep being there to pull me out, but this i have a lot more chance to learn about these things and then try and make these things to perform better, that is way i am so keep on the Jonga project. Since i drive alone, i have to know the limits of the vehicle i am driving, and when i do get stuck, i either look for some friendly farmer with a tractor to bail me out, that is if the tractor can get there or if i cannot find one,then i take a lift or a bus, and go home and get my Bolero, which has bailed me out 90% of the times despite being a 4x2(and due to this, it suffered two broken pintle hook mounts, those round ones, and also a ripped front guard).
Also when i said something about about articulation being ignored, i did not mean the manufactures, infact i meant individuals who use/or mod their vehicles for offorading(from the manufactures i seriously expect nothing rather than a sell us a 20 years old vehicle with a little makeup applied on i, and for the list of new fetures they generally state something like
hidden/plastic covered hinges,
new dashboard, but still without a defrost blower,
new taillamps,woah what a difference,
new look, yeh ,like we idiots dont know its the same old vehicle,
and the likes of it, arrrghhhh, makes me mad sometimes).
Leaving everything else aside, there are few people who know what all little mods can they make to their vehicles to make them better offroad(but diminishing onroad performance a lot), let alone know the amount of additional advantage can they get from a shakle reversal at the front. And these few poeple are generally those who make offroading groups, but still it takes a lot of money to make the mods, so people just back off.
Now comming to the videos, the first Samurai(white one) that you complain has no flex, do you have any idea that the front suspension is limited by a stabilizer/Anti-sway, that your jeep does not have and therefore flex's more.
The second Samurai(Black one) has diagonal wheels on large rocks where even the smaller rock is 1.5 feet tall, so no doubt it will have the wheels in the air(especially the front one with a anti sway bar), but what makes you think the jeep could do that better(with no modification as this gypsy is also without any mods).All springs(especially the ones designed without the sway bars) are stiff springs, even the jeeps, so that they dont topple away while making a hard turn. A jeep subjected to such a terrian will have the same kind of problems with its suspension.
And yes, you said something about the Gypsy makes up with its powerful engine and light weight, with little articuation and opendiff. Well even though i dont have a gypsy but a jeep and also being a jeep guy primarily, its the other way around my friend. The jeep has way more torque, and that too at a much lower rpm, despites having almost similar weight( Jeep petrol 15.25kgm@1800-2000, Gypsy 10kgm at 3500rpm, and the 1 liter Gypsy engine had just 7.5 kgm torque).

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Theres nothing wrong with invaders suspension. The only problem is rear having less articulation. The front leaf are long and shakle is also longer compared to other jeeps. The rear is a inverted leaf of axle set up. the set up is soft and comfortable. But little articulation.
Well was that a question or an answer, coz you answered it yourself. I never said anything about the onroad suspension of the Invader, but the offroad(this is an offroad thread, aint it). You seem to know pretty well why i called it the crappiest suspension. The reason why the manufacturer chose to do something like this is probably coz the Invader with its shorter wheelbase and higher overall CG (center of gravity), will have more stability problems at fast turns and it even has more of a overhang than a Bolero so no doubt, its going to be tail heavy too, swinging its tail out with the least provocation. The rear suspension mounts of the Invader are on the sides of the chassis rails, unlike the Bolero where the mounts are under the rails. This gives it sort of a natural stabilizer without restricting the wheels travel and flex, but offroad, its a bummer.
The only thing that can be done is to weld the Bolero mounts under the frame, but then you would also have to take care to the axle which in this case is under the spring rather than over it, thereby giving it more height if you mount the springs under the rails. So even the axle has to be moved over the spring or you can move the front axle under the springs too and get about 4" lift. A coil spring mod would be great but a major problem we have in india is that useable coil springs come in only the Safari and the Scorpio. Leaving these aside, we dont have much of a choice. The ratings of both the Safari and Scorpio springs are too heavy(are almost the same due to their almost equal weight) to be used at the rear of lighter vehicles, and the rates too low to be used at the front. Also if i go for such a mod, i would surely like to get more of a lift, and these springs aint too long.
All said and done, please dont take this too personally(though i did not like it one bit about what you said in the beginning, but anyways). I learnt a lot while making mistakes on the field and some i learnt on the net from people, who i call friends. Also when you pick some good info from the net, just try to pick the concept and not the entire info. Instead try figuring out yourself why it works and why it does not, by doing some experiments and observing things. I say this coz somethings that work on other vehicles might not work on ours. Also info got on the net for free is worth absolutely that much, remember this. I am so indulgent in these thing, that most of the time you will find me either under the hood or underneath the body of any 4x4. My friends tease me that even my children will be born underneath a 4x4, but i'll leave the part about what they say about my marriage and honeymoon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinnerr View Post
Just a thought..
Isnít the fuel tank located at the rear, so having a near full tank on off-road expeditions should help, shouldnít it? Or else, would all that fuel shifting around be a deterrent?

Was wondering if fuel in the tank can work like sand bags at the back of the vehicle.
Spinner, the Flatfenders have the tank under the left driver/passenger seat(depending on if its a LHD or RHD), and not the rear. The ones you see at the rear or usually modifications done by the owner, and a major problem of these is that they usually spill fuel at that position. Feul weights roughly .7kgs to a liter, so a 40 liter tank will hardly weight 30 kgs, and thats too little to make any differences. Its not much about adding weight here and there, but basically proportioning the weight between the front and rear, which has more to do eith the basic design of the vehicle, and this helps especially while covering any terrian(like for i.e. rocky terrian where there are more chances of your vehicle almost always balancing on diagonal tires) where your suspension is working the hardest and therefore doing the majority of the work. A very short wheelbase vehicle is not a good idea where you have to climb over rocks(rockcrawling), because leaving alone the proportioned weight, they have just too high a CG. Offroaders abroad are mad enough to climb on rocks that are 5 feet high and straight as a wall, and a short wheelbase vehicle here would just topple over on its rear.
Take care,
Regards,
Bikram
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Old 27th September 2008, 00:25   #13
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phew! that took some digesting.
Informative post brutus. thanks.

So the take home message is that the bolero has better articulation than the bolero invader and even the older jeeps? Or did I get it bass-ackwards?
the bolero 4X4 is getting more and more attractive. now, fingers crossed for that CRDe thats rumoured to be coming.
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Old 27th September 2008, 13:26   #14
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BikramJi tussi chaa gaye Paaji....
Just amazing! the amount of info and knowledge you have shared here. Guess i should make you my idol as i am planning to start up a Jeep project.

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I guess that would probably go down as the longest post on T-BHP ever.
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Old 27th September 2008, 14:08   #15
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Default Pics of Willys MB Cycling it suspension

The Chassis & Leafsprings and Differentials are of an Original Willys MB.

Engine XD4.9P
Gearbox T90+ T18
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Articulating on Articulation-x1011673.jpg  

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