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Old 29th March 2009, 14:47   #181
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Originally Posted by fazalaliadil View Post
Brutus,
About the Borg Warner, and the chain drive mechanism, I would like to know more about it's relaibility, why should it not be rugged as the gear driven? It is an upgrade of th gear driven, hence. Is it that because of it's rarity that many people are not aware of it's prowess? As it a tendency with mechanics here.... if they do not understand a mechanism or have not worked on one, they immedeately start condenming it... is it a similar case?
Many Transfer cases in the new generation vehicles are chain driven.
Await your's and other learned forum members to enlighten me here.
Thanks
Hi Fazal,
The only reason why i never said the Borg&warner is not a very good choice is that the ppl who managed to break them like a rotten eggs were using V8's, besides their BA10(peugeot manufactured, i think the wrangler had it for some time) gearboxes would give up first. Since we don't have that powerful motors in India, i dont have any reason to beleive if its weaker choice, because there have been lots of instances of the Dana18 going wrong too.(by the way, the Borg&warner is not an chain-driven derivative of the dana-spicer, if thats what you mean. It from an entirely different world). The is a 2-fold calculation for the stress taking capability of a transfer-case, not only should it have strong enough gears that would'nt shatter from the torque(or a chindrive system for that matter), but also the casing should be strong enough to take the lateral torque. The Borg&warner is not suited to more powerful motors, since it has an weak aluminum casing(leaving aside the internals), while the Dana18, even though it has a cast-iron casing, is weak due to the casing design( the Dana20 shares the same design of the casing, but it was substantially re-enforced to be proven as a very capable xfercase, but sadly its not available in India)
Chaindrive systems as such are reliable and very quite, but the only flaw they have is just that, the chain drive linkages. To put it in this way, its just like the valve-train drives, where a gear driven system lasts for ages, the chain lessor and the belt even lessor, but when you talk about working efficency, the table goes the other way around.
If a chain-drive is compatible with the power-rating, like it is with the stock powertrain, it should work just fine. The only things you need to be careful of is the parts availablity. Jyobeb has already done the best thing he could, he converted it a manual shift linkage, so wiring short-circuits, or vacuum leakages dont matter anymore. He has a 80hp lightly-turbocharged motor, which according to normal peugeot standards might be producing 16-18kgm torque, which is within limits of both the xfercases.
In the U.S., where they use high power motors, not only do they use ultra powerful gear-driven xfercases like the Atlas or the Stak, but they need a system that can engage the front or the rear drive independently, so that while off-roading, they can disengage the front drive or the rear(acc. to the terrian) to make tight turns, especially where they have a need to engage the diff-locks too.
This is slightly off-ropic, but i just learnt that the Bolero Crdi, which is based upon the peugeot 2.5l xd3p motor of the earlier Bolero, produces way less Hp and Torque than the turbocharged version of the same motor did back in the late 80's. Ohh, what a pitty!
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Old 31st March 2009, 19:46   #182
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Hi Fazal,
The only reason why i never said the Borg&warner is not a very good choice is that the ppl who managed to break them like a rotten eggs were using V8's, besides their BA10(peugeot manufactured, i think the wrangler .......This is slightly off-ropic, but i just learnt that the Bolero Crdi, which is based upon the peugeot 2.5l xd3p motor of the earlier Bolero, produces way less Hp and Torque than the turbocharged version of the same motor did back in the late 80's. Ohh, what a pitty!
Brutus,
Thankyou, for the very valueable information, It was an education I tremendously needed. I will need to go through it again and again for each detail to sink in, so let me not pretend that I understood all the technilaties that you posted. Will make every effort to fully understand your comprehensive explanation.
Best Regards
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Old 1st April 2009, 10:24   #183
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Dear Brutus - the Bolero CRDe is equipped with the NEF 2.5 litre engine and is completely different from the XD3P. The NEF also produces more power than the XD3P. This is just for your information.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 1st April 2009, 10:51   #184
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Default NEF 2.5 is not Xd 3p upgrade!

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Originally Posted by brutus View Post
This is slightly off-ropic, but i just learnt that the Bolero Crdi, which is based upon the peugeot 2.5l xd3p motor of the earlier Bolero, produces way less Hp and Torque than the turbocharged version of the same motor did back in the late 80's. Ohh, what a pitty!
Even i and Arka thought the same earlier. I think the culprit in the article on BS-motoring on Bolero Crde which mentioned that the 2.5 litre Crde is XD 3p based. Now that the man himself (Mr. Dhabar )clarifies, XD 3p is laid to rest for civilians (except for bolero slx 4wd).
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Old 2nd April 2009, 00:47   #185
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Thank you for the correction,
Thank god they are moving over from the peugeot, thats the only reason why i'am selling my Bolero.
Anyways, i wonder why these guys don't come out with a few good engine options on the Bolero 4x4. Since there are a few taker's for any 4 wheel drive vehicles in India, well comparitively, which i would not call cheap given the price tag, a Di or even the CRdi option, or wait a minute, the 2.6 motor(non-Crdi) of the scorpio might actually increase the sales. There seem to be enough buyers for the Force, and even if these guys cannot add a 3-link coil up front and a 5 link rear, just adding Diff-locks, even an add-on options from the ARB or OX line might add considerable sales by protruding into gurkha territory, not the mention finding a completely new market oversees.
Besides, with the scorpio motor, its going to be a pocket-rocket, and blow the competion twice over. They already have a nice base to start with, add a little tinny-winny bits like decent comfort features as in power rear-veiws, A/c blower with windscreen defrosters(i can't beleive they still dont have it), and a little more minor changes like this one, Though i think by doing just that, they're are afraid it might cause people buying the scorpio to just buy the bolero instead,lol.
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Old 2nd April 2009, 10:25   #186
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Brutus - the Bolero CRDe is equipped with the NEF 2.5 litre engine and is completely different from the XD3P. The NEF also produces more power than the XD3P. This is just for your information.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Then why is the displacement 2498cc same as the XD3P. M&M is using the same Piston/Con-Rod and Crankshaft and the engine is governed to 3800 rpm where as the XD3P were good to 4600rpm with oil-coolers.

I think save cost on R&D for Piston/Con-Rods/Crankshaft and you can call it what you like to avoid royalty issues with PUEGEOT.

Regards,

Arka

PS - Offcorse M&M has done a few cosmetic changeovers on the block and a new head inspired by their failed NEF249 engine in South Africa.

Oh!!! its Common Rail & Turbo Charged

Last edited by ex670c : 2nd April 2009 at 10:31. Reason: addl. info
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Old 2nd April 2009, 12:16   #187
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Thats why i thought it was the same since i read it having the same bore and stroke too.

But in any case, i think most of the mahindra turbo motors don't necessarily use turbos to develop loads of power, but rather just to clean up emissions. Why, look at the DI turbo, where i think the sole objective of using the turbo was to clean up emissions. An rise in torque of just 1.5kgm in a 2.5liter motor after using a Turbo sounds absurd. Although i beleive that as far as the Commercial usage was concerned, it might as well be for good, since the basic strength for the Di as far as load hauling is concerned lies at bucket-loads of torque available right at Idle. Even with a turbo, there would not be as huge a torque increase at Idle, but yes, surely as the Turbo boost increases, so will the torque resulting in a very steep upward graph till the maximum torque level would be reached at about 1600-2000 rpm.
Also, since most drivers in India are not Turbo educated, developing huge amounts of power relaying mostly on the turbo, like modern motors as the detroit diesel in the hyundai accent does, will kill that same strength factor of the Di that makes it so popular with the hauling crowd. Not only will Tubro-lag be the factor, but since turbo's are fragile, abuseing it a little, like we all do(not giving it enough time to run, and oil-up after starting, or before shutting down, etc). Yes, i know there are other engines in the commercial league that do very well despite relaying on the Turbos to a great extent, one of the best being my favourite, cummins, but then these motors were designed keeping the Turbo in mind, whereas the Di is basically an ages old motor that mahindra decided to keep developing, "why fix something that ain't broke", havn't we all heard this phrase way too many times. Don't get me wrong, the Di is one of my favourite motors, and if these guys still come up with a 4x4 Bolero powered by the Di, i'll be the first one to get it, but i think Mahindra did us a whole lot of injustice by ponking in the same Commercial motor in there. Atleast they should have re-enforced the motor, higher boost, more fuel, used an inter-cooler(not for more power, but the cooler air provided by it will ensure that even in extreme offroading sessions, it would not overheat as fast as the other motors), and yes, alteast should have re-designed oiling routes of the motor, especially the lower end, and placed a different oil pump with an oil-cooler so that the sump would not hang as low as it does now( doest the Di squirt oil under the pistons like most of these hardcore besigned for reliability motor do to keep things cool). I hate this lethargic attitude of mahindra of not packagsing the right stuff for the right vehicle, and especially the "Take it or leave it" policy, coz we have basically no choice regarding the 4x4 bolero. Since the buyers are few and far inbetween, and they already charge a premium for what they deleiver, they could have made a few motor choices available to the customer, who would'nt mind spending some more given the choice. The same goes for those so-called limited edition or the custom designs. What charge a lot of "cutting it up", and everything else is that same(i wonder if those models, like the stinger, even come with a 4 wheel drive)end of also means lesser stress on the motor,

As for the the new Bolero crdi, if its what we think it is, then it really is a pity, since not only did the XD3TE( the turbo version of the peugeot Xd3p in the 80's) produces 24kgm torque and 102hp, but also was more fuel effecient, and i have no reason to doubt its emissions too. If thats the truth, then mahindra is just trying to cheat customers by charging a premium for quoting their super CRDE tech, but also (this point is very important if it really is the same motor) because they did not try to extract atleast a reasonable amount of power that the common-rails are famous for. I mean common, 2.5 liter motor with a common rail can easily develop 12kgm/liter, look at the 2.2 liter for god's sake, it still produced more power, though the Variable turbine blade angles also plays an important part. Even without it, you could expect it to produce an justified 10kgm/liter.

Even if its not the same motor, still it does'nt do it any justice, since its still way too underpowered for what it could develop. What they are trying to say is, "the new motor is better, it has the common rail Tech, but we never bothered to put in the lasted turbo to complete the paskage, we did'nt have time to do that since we like to sleep when its working time, so just this much will do , and for which we will make you pay through your noses, especially your hard-earned money. Although i have to admit its still is not as powerful as the older turbo motor that its based on, or for that matter any older motor with the same displacement, it does not give you more fuel economy, and i'am not sure if it does much for emissions. Besides it good for us since what we learnt from the bombay floods is that you can make alot of money by developing motors based on computers and external sensors. But frankly, our customers, do you really bother with this CDRE tech not producing more power, since we still ain't going to change anything on the vehicle its meant for. I mean, you still would not get the nominal amounts of creature comforts like a goog set of seats, especially the rear ones, and no folding seats either, no power rear views, no rear defroster, not evne a simple defogger blower for the front windscreen, let alone the other A/C funtions, besides the other things, But not everything is the same, after a lot of research and the millions in currency involved, we managed to develop the best internal fuel lid opener, and we would do you a huge favour by installing it in the new bolero, though we will make sure you would have tp pay lots for this latest tech knob. Heights man, Wake up ,we Indian customers.

Another reason for not developing more powerif its the same based on the Indian non-turbo peugeot is that they never bothered to strengthen the original block. If thats true, then you know whom to called a crooked thief.
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Old 2nd April 2009, 12:41   #188
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Dear all - all your views on the engines are well taken, as well as other comments also. However, please remember that all new vehicles which have to be used in India need to be registered in India for which they must meet CMVR (Central Motor Vehicle Rules), emissions being one of the CMVR item. And this "emissions" is much much more than the normal "PUC" with which people are generally familiar. By the way, the Bolero VLX operates on a 3.73:1 axle ratio. I hope that with these two important inputs, some queries would be answered. For further queries, please PM me. I will be delighted to answer. Also, I would request you to have close looks at the front suspensions of the Bolero VLX and other Boleros, both being 2 wheel drive vehicles.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 2nd April 2009, 15:31   #189
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Guys,
This is how i see it-
NEF engines might have some bits and parts of old engine. For example the original scorpio 2.6 litre turbo gear drive engine was developed based on a tractor block. This is basically done for cost optimisation. They certainly have a right to do so and nothing wrong in that! Later this engine was futher refined gear drive changed to chain drive and later CRDI added to it. Just because it has some old bits and pieces as base one cannot call it an old engine altogether.I feel the 2.5 crde NEF is a detuned version of 2.6 litre CRde version not based on old XD 3p turbo made for Africa which bombed. Does it make sence for Mahindra to have so many engine platforms that are alltogether different? I dont think so.

Its like saying since Scorpio is 2680 mm wheelbase similar to Armada, they both are same or Scorpio is a spurced up Armada, which it is not! The new Vlx 2.2 is developed from scratch i suppose by an Austrian firm called AVL. The engine is good which is named M hawk and has got good customer response.
Guys correct me if iam wrong.
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Old 2nd April 2009, 16:52   #190
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
By the way, the Bolero VLX operates on a 3.73:1 axle ratio.
Behram Dhabhar
Is this to compensate for the fact that the revs have been limited to 3800 rpm as Arka suggested?
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Old 2nd April 2009, 18:14   #191
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Dear all - I am repeating again. CMVR has to be met. Emissions have to be met. It is not that very very powerful vehicles cannot be made to meet CMVR and emissions but cost, BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) and customer based performance predictions have to be balanced. All said and done, the Bolero is the highest selling MUV in India at > 50000 vehicles.

Once again requesting, have you seen the front suspension setups of the Bolero VLX and compared it to other Boleros?

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 2nd April 2009, 19:05   #192
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear all - I am repeating again. CMVR has to be met. Emissions have to be met. It is not that very very powerful vehicles cannot be made to meet CMVR and emissions but cost, BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) and customer based performance predictions have to be balanced. All said and done, the Bolero is the highest selling MUV in India at > 50000 vehicles.

Once again requesting, have you seen the front suspension setups of the Bolero VLX and compared it to other Boleros?

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Yes dhabaar sir, the front suspension set up on VLX bolero resembles the setup on Scorpio which can take 4wd components if built in 4wd guise. Also there seems to be an amalgamation of two types of chassis rear end bolero and the front end scorpio right?

I understand numerous factors that need to be taken care before deciding on the output from an engine and none of the engine is inferior to competition atleast in India. The question remains how far are the new engines based on old ones that M&M is using now?
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Old 2nd April 2009, 20:41   #193
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
...the Bolero CRDe is equipped with the NEF 2.5 litre engine and is completely different from the XD3P....
Quote:
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Then why is the displacement 2498cc same as the XD3P. ...
this is just a coincidence , Arka.

From what I know, the 2.5 CRDe is the same as the 2.6 CRDe Scorpio engine, except that it's swept volume has been reduced to keep it under 2.5L, in order to get some tax benefits in certain export markets.

Last edited by Blue Thunder : 2nd April 2009 at 20:43.
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