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Old 7th January 2010, 18:53   #91
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Oh wow how did i forget about this thread?

My question is specific to Torsion bars more than IFS, i know even coils are a variety of torsion if you go by textbooks. But in real life are they really tough? The whole bar looks so thin compared to the bulk it carries!

So how good are the torsion bar set up?
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Old 7th January 2010, 19:59   #92
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Dinar, considering I own one 4WD with IFS and another 4WD with live axle, I am aware of the strengths and weaknesses of both the system. I was referring to the abuse taking ability, not offroading ability.

As far as offroading ability is concerned, live axle wins hands down. However abuse taking ability, I am not willing to believe live axle has an advantage.

The reason, my own experience. I drive the Grand Vitara fast on huge pot holed roads on everyday basis, for more than 2 years now. So far not a single niggle. The offroading in the Jeep generally happens in slow crawling speed, the suspension hardly encounters the high-speed jolts to the system. Still I need to tighten everything after every offroad event.

The IFS is a complex system compared to the live axle system, however that doesn't mean it is fragile compared to live axle.
I have lived/ living with M&Ms with both the suspension setup, comparing both from same manufacturer, live axle from M&M is the best [can handle more abuse] very little maintenance required on live axle compared to IFS [again from M&M].

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In our kind of offroad usage, where load is not really an issue, I don't think IFS would be damaged any faster than live axle.

Vinod, I am just going by my experience. I keep breaking leafs and losing U-clamps on the Jeep. GV which is lot heavier and while taking more abuse is in impeccable shape, never had a single issue.
Again have lived with the live axle and never had so many problems, I have been off roading with the vehicle on regular bases, but never lost U clamps, or breaking on leaf spring even with load in the vehicle, and by load I mean carry stuff for the farm [around 800-900Kg]. Ok it was not extreme off roading but the loads and the kind of trails is equivalent to doing extreme trails . But that my experience, I think you should get a jeep to some good mechanic and get the suspension checked.



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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Oh wow how did i forget about this thread?

My question is specific to Torsion bars more than IFS, i know even coils are a variety of torsion if you go by textbooks. But in real life are they really tough? The whole bar looks so thin compared to the bulk it carries!

So how good are the torsion bar set up?
Torsion bar setup is as strong as coil spring, the forces are exerted differently hence the diameter can be small.
There are added advantages in using this type of suspension, the chasis does not need a addition vertical member for mount coil springs and force distribution can be handled better with this type of setup.

Last edited by dinar : 7th January 2010 at 20:00.
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Old 7th January 2010, 20:05   #93
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@Jaggu:

IFS with Torsion bar is the set up used by most of the world 4WD Suvs that use IFS upfront. As Dinar pointed out the Torsion bar is a replacement for your coil spring.
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Old 7th January 2010, 20:32   #94
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Thanks Dinar and 4x4addict, i asked since:

1) i had come across the infamous Tavera suspension issue thread. I know its quite widely used.

2) I was ok till yesterday since my friend's feedback was very bullish about it (his car is now touching 1.8 lakh) and then i see a white tavera cab sunk on its side, right in front of my office!
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Old 7th January 2010, 20:45   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinar View Post
I have lived/ living with M&Ms with both the suspension setup, comparing both from same manufacturer, live axle from M&M is the best [can handle more abuse] very little maintenance required on live axle compared to IFS [again from M&M].
May be I should not be judging based on Suzuki IFS experience...


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But that my experience, I think you should get a jeep to some good mechanic and get the suspension checked.
My Jeep is generally under the tender care of Mahindra workshop.
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Old 7th January 2010, 21:51   #96
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My Jeep is generally under the tender care of Mahindra workshop.
I am just saying cause this should not happen, breaking of leaf spring [older unit] is understandable , but U clamp falling off is just laps in service, in My 10 years of using the JEEP I never had such problems. Even today I run two pickups [M&M] and 207DIs never have I had any problems of such kind. The route is still the same off road terrain.
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Old 7th January 2010, 23:15   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinar View Post
I am just saying cause this should not happen, breaking of leaf spring [older unit] is understandable , but U clamp falling off is just laps in service, in My 10 years of using the JEEP I never had such problems. Even today I run two pickups [M&M] and 207DIs never have I had any problems of such kind. The route is still the same off road terrain.
+1. Same experience here.

@Samurai
Is it any particular wheel which gives problems? What do you mean by U bolts falling off?

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Old 7th January 2010, 23:54   #98
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The way he hops on and off rock faces and does mud attacks, what will those poor U clamps do

Samu's jeep participates in offroad events and does trails more than on road stuff or carry load as normal people do, so things can break, sometimes faster. After a trail or two any vehicle will need attention or a check up i guess.
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Old 7th January 2010, 23:58   #99
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@Jaggu:

As Suptra pointed out in the other thread, when a coil sags, it has to be replaced. The torsion bar on the other hand can be adjusted to compensate for sag to a certain degree. Not sure what the situation with the particular Tavera was, but sagging can happen with coil as well after extensive use.
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Old 8th January 2010, 00:03   #100
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It was not sagging, it just snapped off something i guess.

Vehicle couldnt be moved and was pulled over on the side, i think something holding the torsion bar snapped underneath. It was a really old and really butchered piece with scars, dents and even rust on the exterior, so i can forgive the bar i guess
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Old 8th January 2010, 00:40   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
@Samurai
Is it any particular wheel which gives problems? What do you mean by U bolts falling off?
Like this.... last time it happened after this event: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-e...isle-ghat.html
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Today I gave the Jeep for post-offroad service. Now the local Mahindra Workshop has become familiar with the post-offroad service concept. The SA was asking how much water level I enountered and for how long, etc., to access the damage to oil seals, etc.

And they found an U-Clamp missing under the driver side.

And this happened two weeks back after the Coorg OTR:

Is Independent Front Suspension (IFS) good for offroading?-pc223849.jpg

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Originally Posted by dinar View Post
Again have lived with the live axle and never had so many problems, I have been off roading with the vehicle on regular bases, but never lost U clamps, or breaking on leaf spring even with load in the vehicle, and by load I mean carry stuff for the farm [around 800-900Kg]. Ok it was not extreme off roading but the loads and the kind of trails is equivalent to doing extreme trails.
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Originally Posted by dinar View Post
in My 10 years of using the JEEP I never had such problems. Even today I run two pickups [M&M] and 207DIs never have I had any problems of such kind. The route is still the same off road terrain.
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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
+1. Same experience here.
When you guys say offroad terrain, do you go looking for trouble like us hobbyist offroaders? We don't carry load, but we get winched/towed out 3-4 times in an OTR event or winch others.

Last edited by Samurai : 8th January 2010 at 00:50.
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Old 8th January 2010, 01:06   #102
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The road I travel is a proper off road event kind on terrain [not the village roads or anything] which include fording on streams [in rains] of up to 2.5-3.5 feet water. also I did fair bit of off roading in the jeep. The braking of spring is Ok as I said, they tend to , once old and not inspected, usually they show signs of fatigue. But I still say the Ubolt[ clamps] coming loss is Not a good sign on the service part, these thing need tightening. If the vehicle is serviced at the ***, they have to check for it and change them if the bolts show signs of failure.
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Old 8th January 2010, 01:14   #103
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I always do pre-OTR service and post-OTR service at Mahindra dealership workshop for every OTR. Since I mostly drive alone to offroad events, I can't afford breakdowns.

This dealership (Karnataka Agencies) is one of the oldest and best according both Behram and Sudhir Kashyap.

Last edited by Samurai : 8th January 2010 at 01:15.
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Old 8th January 2010, 06:25   #104
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Have any of you guys examined the suspension of M&M pickup trucks? Are the U-bolts, shackles, ball joints, tie rods....all the suspension stuff, more robust than standard old jeep suspension parts? Pickups carry loads and I would think that some of their parts would be stronger. If so, I wonder if pickup suspension parts would be usable in a jeep and hence constitute an upgrade at least in some cases. I know it is not an easy question and you might get a yes or a no depending on what part, what pickup and what old jeep we are talking about. And you could really screw up the ride and handling of your jeep if you were not careful. But if there was, say, a pickup U-bolt that was 1.2 zerbits in diameter as opposed to a MM550 U-bolt that was .9 zerbits in diameter, then you might opt for the pickup's U-bolt. The idea is to make your jeep bullet proof.
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Old 8th January 2010, 08:18   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
When you guys say offroad terrain, do you go looking for trouble like us hobbyist offroaders? We don't carry load, but we get winched/towed out 3-4 times in an OTR event or winch others.
I most certainly dont. In fact I do my best to avoid a OTR scenario. But trying to avoid does not mean you do avoid. My situation will be similar to DD/ Dinar, maybe somewhat less frequent.

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Originally Posted by dinar View Post
The road I travel is a proper off road event kind on terrain [not the village roads or anything] which include fording on streams [in rains] of up to 2.5-3.5 feet water. also I did fair bit of off roading in the jeep. The braking of spring is Ok as I said, they tend to , once old and not inspected, usually they show signs of fatigue. But I still say the Ubolt[ clamps] coming loss is Not a good sign on the service part, these thing need tightening. If the vehicle is serviced at the ***, they have to check for it and change them if the bolts show signs of failure.
Once again +1. The only time we've faced problems with UBolts was with the Jonga, but that was because of its design.
I wonder whether the Ubolts broke, or the threads stripped and the nuts came off, or the nuts just worked loose and dropped off. Were all the nuts tight on the other Ubolts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
Have any of you guys examined the suspension of M&M pickup trucks? Are the U-bolts, shackles, ball joints, tie rods....all the suspension stuff, more robust than standard old jeep suspension parts? Pickups carry loads and I would think that some of their parts would be stronger.
.....
But if there was, say, a pickup U-bolt that was 1.2 zerbits in diameter as
Other than full floating rear axles, I would doubt it. Needs investigation. And anyone got the parts catalogue for the CJ and FC.
What is a zerbit?

Regards
Sutripta
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