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Old 25th February 2009, 21:55   #1
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Default Using 4L for all offroading needs... good or bad?

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Originally Posted by AMAN_SACHDEV View Post
Yes Ankit I really enjoyed my first OTR, I was not aware that terrain will be so tough. I thank TATA Motors for making such a superb vehicle which is very comfortable and fast on-road and ultimate off-road capabilities besides being heavy and with such a long wheel base. Safari's engine is really powerfull, 140bhp 320NM engine.
Hey Aman

Harjeev told me that u drove on 4x4 L thru out the OTR. My Advise is use 4x4 only to get through the obstrucle. As soon as u cross the obstacle pls change to 2x4.

4x4 puts a lot of pressure on your engine and also on you gears and shafts. This can create problems in the diffrential and the gearing.

I the track demands 4x4 try high forst if not sucessfull then put Low.

regds

Amit
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Old 26th February 2009, 11:53   #2
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Originally Posted by Tusker4x4 View Post
Harjeev told me that u drove on 4x4 L thru out the OTR. My Advise is use 4x4 only to get through the obstrucle. As soon as u cross the obstacle pls change to 2x4.

4x4 puts a lot of pressure on your engine and also on you gears and shafts. This can create problems in the diffrential and the gearing.
This is not necessarily true unless you encounter tarmac during your trail run.

I have rarely seen people get out of 4WD once entering offroad terrain. I always stay in 4L unless I run into tarmac, there is always enough slip in mud trails to relieve the windup. I got that idea from Behram himself.

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
I have driven a CJ340 (MH01P2540) in 27 Great Escapes in Goa, Rajasthan and all over the place including Madikeri and my vehicle was like a mountain goat, running rings around just about everything. I used to just cut through shrubs, ditches, mud, slush, dry sand et al in order to reach vehicles which were stuck, reverse in front of them, then my technician would latch the chain and I would just yank the vehicle out of its tight spot in no time at all. The technique of driving a CJ340 in a convoy during a great escape (Sharat, this is for you) is to keep it in 4*4 low and then start off in 3rd, shift to 4th and keep going. 4th low is almost same as 2nd high. In case of degree of difficulty increasing, you have 3 fallback gears. The cardinal rule is to go fast / float over obstacles.
Now this guy knows more about the engineering behind 4WD/Engine/gears/shafts than most of us here, and he suggests staying in 4L all the time in the offroad terrain.
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Old 26th February 2009, 13:59   #3
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Originally Posted by Tusker4x4 View Post
Hey Aman

Harjeev told me that u drove on 4x4 L thru out the OTR. My Advise is use 4x4 only to get through the obstrucle. As soon as u cross the obstacle pls change to 2x4.

4x4 puts a lot of pressure on your engine and also on you gears and shafts. This can create problems in the diffrential and the gearing.

I the track demands 4x4 try high forst if not sucessfull then put Low.

regds

Amit
Hi tusker,
There is no use of engaging the 4low after getting stuck!! The trick is to assess the terrain and be prepared with the right set of gears instead of numereous changes as and when you go!! I feel 3 low is good for most of the terrain and any sudden surprises like sudden bog down or surprise loose sand etc will be taken care of without loosing power or momentum.

4 high is almost useless in indian kind of terrain except for areas with snow fall and the road is slippery. (to my surprise as most of us know that 3rd low is almost 1st high, but in palar the sand wall that i couldnt clear in 3rd low several times, i cleared in 1st high!!!. Speed was necessary and this shows even a little difference in gearing contributes to speed & torque!)

I often use 4wd high on kutcha roads that lead to the off-road spot. This makes it sure i dont get stuck or loose control.

BTW iam not aware of the fact that usage of 4wd create differential and the gearing?...well i dont think so.

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 26th February 2009 at 14:04.
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Old 26th February 2009, 15:47   #4
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Samurai,

The skill lies in sellecting the right gear for the right terrain/obstracle. When a 4x4 is not required why engage it. Using 4x4 low and then starting and driving at 3 or 4 gear is matter of convinence not a matter of skill.

Using excessive force where none is needed is a matter of convinience not of skill

Normal drive in offroad situation, where there is soft sand or little slush a 4x4 H on 2nd or 3rd is good enough, Low is not needed.
On a normal track with hard surface 4x4 is not needed just a control of accelatation/momentum does the trick so where is the skill of driving by using 4x4 Low here.

4x4 with right gear can be engaged at the start of the incline/ decline/ slush/ water and disengaged after that.

A driver with skills is valued more by me than a driver with more power under the bonnet.

So this is one point of view we differ on.

None the less Offroad is what we all love to be

Redgs

Amit

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Hi tusker,
There is no use of engaging the 4low after getting stuck!! The trick is to assess the terrain and be prepared with the right set of gears instead of numereous changes as and when you go!! I feel 3 low is good for most of the terrain and any sudden surprises like sudden bog down or surprise loose sand etc will be taken care of without loosing power or momentum.
Vinod,

I agree with you the assement of the right gear is of utmost importance. But use of excessive power where none is needed, I dont agree with.

for surprises 4x4 H is good enough. where 4x4 L has be be used that is easily visible.

Regds

Amit

Last edited by khan_sultan : 26th February 2009 at 15:56. Reason: back to back posts
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Old 26th February 2009, 16:27   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tusker4x4 View Post
The skill lies in sellecting the right gear for the right terrain/obstracle. When a 4x4 is not required why engage it. Using 4x4 low and then starting and driving at 3 or 4 gear is matter of convinence not a matter of skill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tusker4x4 View Post
Using excessive force where none is needed is a matter of convenience not of skill
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Originally Posted by Tusker4x4 View Post
A driver with skills is valued more by me than a driver with more power under the bonnet.
I am not talking about skill, in fact I can't talk about it considering I am still wet behind the ears regards to offroading. I'd like drive comfortably without worrying about my lack of skills. In the recent Munnar event, almost all made it through, right from top experts to newbies. Most of us just drive Jeeps/Gypsy, mine is a 62HP 12Kgm engine, there is not much difference in power under the bonnet.

My point is simply this. I switch to 4L upon entering offroad terrain and remain that way until I get out, unless I run into hard surface. Yes, it is a matter of convenience, nothing to do with skill. If skilled drivers are constantly switching between 2WD, 4H & 4L all the time during the offroad event, well, that's their prerogative. I'll comfortably stay in 4L and switch only between the regular gears as long as terrain gives enough slip.

That leaves the question, is it bad for engine/gears/shafts? Behram doesn't think so, that is good enough for me.
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Old 26th February 2009, 16:58   #6
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Hi Guys,

I am new to Team BHP but very old on the NCR OTR's. In our last OTR in Manesar, the trail on which we had explored was total harcore 4x4 low offroading. Please note that there was no place at all in that trail which was flat where you could come out of the 4x4 low. The only difference was depending on the kind of 4x4 offroader i.e. in my MB, i was always in 4x4 low second gear. On the steep inclines , i was in low first. What i mean to say is that depending on the 4x4 you are driving the gear ratio has to be decided accordingly and top of all this its totally dependent on the kind of trail/ track you are going thru. I totally agree that use of the correct gear / 4x4/ low/high and reasonable use of power comes only with experience and handling of your 4x4.

Cheers

Sarvinder

Willys MB , 1943, 1944
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Old 26th February 2009, 17:35   #7
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Welcome to Team-BHP Sarvinder, great to see you here.

Talking about novice offroaders like Aman or myself, don't you think we are better off staying in 4WD on offroad terrain than switching to 4WD only when required? When I say offroad terrain, I mean a trail with enough slip to avoid windup.

In a few years I too may command some skill, then I might do it differently.
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Old 26th February 2009, 18:28   #8
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A big welcome Sarvinder Ji on Team-Bhp.

@Samurai: Talking of novices, here I come too.. Interesting discussion so couldn't stop myself.

I had the pleasure of sitting with Amit and Aman both in this OTR. I remember one time after our half way through the Sabrina's tree, when I was sitting with Amit, the path to the next half track even though off-road and rough, was much simpler and flat. The jeep was doing great in 2x4 mode. The speeds were also not too slow. So we were joking that where is the offroad, still no need to put 4x4. So may be Amit referring for those parts.
Aman switched to 4x2 mode as soon as he was about to hit hard road.

But the big question remains whats good for engine: Doing simpler tracks in 4x2 or keeping it in 4x4.
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Old 26th February 2009, 18:49   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willys MB View Post
Hi Guys,

I am new to Team BHP but very old on the NCR OTR's.

Cheers

Sarvinder

Willys MB , 1943, 1944
Sarvinder Sir, Welcome to T-BHP. Good to have you here.

Cheers !!!!
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Old 26th February 2009, 18:53   #10
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Originally Posted by Ym-enjn View Post
the path to the next half track even though off-road and rough, was much simpler and flat. The jeep was doing great in 2x4 mode. The speeds were also not too slow. So we were joking that where is the offroad, still no need to put 4x4. So may be Amit referring for those parts.
Aman switched to 4x2 mode as soon as he was about to hit hard road.

But the big question remains whats good for engine: Doing simpler tracks in 4x2 or keeping it in 4x4.
When you say simple & flat, does that mean hard surface without slip? If yes, then obviously one has to switch back to 2WD. However, if the surface still has lot of slip, then one can chose to stay in 4WD, that is my opinion.
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Old 26th February 2009, 19:58   #11
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
When you say simple & flat, does that mean hard surface without slip? If yes, then obviously one has to switch back to 2WD. However, if the surface still has lot of slip, then one can chose to stay in 4WD, that is my opinion.
Samurai,

No that was not simple flat, hard surface, it was offroad track which was flatter than other parts of the trail.

The track we were on as SSS MOD said is a hardcore 4x4 track.

A 62 Bhp engine with high torque is a very good engine. I myself drive a MM540 i think thats about 45 or 48 BHp but again high torque.

SSS MOD (Sarvinderjee ) / RBS MOD (RBjee) are the people we all look upto to learn about offroading. They are amoung the best offroad drives that I have come across. They have been constantly guiding us and upgrading our skills in offroading in NIOC.

About the effect of driving the vechile on 4x4 on for long period of time. I have had the problem with the shaft as my driver had the Jeep for 2 day and by mistake he was driving on 4x4 H. That resulted in a constant noise in my shaft. It was set right when i got my gear box etc done.

Unless you try a obstracle in a lower gear you will never have the experience of knowing that it was the right gear or not. Using 4x4L at all places is just convinience and on top of that you are not learning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willys MB View Post
Hi Guys,

I am new to Team BHP but very old on the NCR OTR's. In our last OTR in Manesar, the trail on which we had explored was total harcore 4x4 low offroading.

I totally agree that use of the correct gear / 4x4/ low/high and reasonable use of power comes only with experience and handling of your 4x4.

Cheers

Sarvinder

Willys MB , 1943, 1944

Dear SSS MOD,

Welcome to TBHP. Your presence here in TBHP discussions will be very enlighting.

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Originally Posted by Ym-enjn View Post
A big welcome Sarvinder Ji on Team-Bhp.

But the big question remains whats good for engine: Doing simpler tracks in 4x2 or keeping it in 4x4.
Dear Yogesh,

I fully am with you. Putting pressure on the engine where we can avoid is something to think. Now that would depend on ones skills.

What I have been taught by RBjee is use 4x4 only when absolutely required. Most often that not we are in a hurry to use 4x4 as the facility is there. If at all, the Jeep stalls option is always there.

With experience as SSS MOD said you learn which gear is required. So atleast leave space for learning.

On top of it, what good is an Offroad session where no recovery of Jeeps is done.

Regds

Amit
(NIOC)

Last edited by Rehaan : 27th February 2009 at 13:30. Reason: Posts merged. Please use the MULTIQUOTE button instead of making multiple consecutive posts in the same thread. Thanks.
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Old 26th February 2009, 20:55   #12
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Originally Posted by Tusker4x4 View Post
SSS MOD (Sarvinderjee ) / RBS MOD (RBjee) are the people we all look upto to learn about offroading. They are amoung the best offroad drives that I have come across. They have been constantly guiding us and upgrading our skills in offroading in NIOC.
Similarly, in Team-BHP we look up to Behram Dhabhar when it comes offroading and anything do with Mahindra or Fiat. Therefore, when he said one can stay in 4L for all offroading needs, I seriously analysed that option, tried it out and was quite impressed with the result.

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Originally Posted by Tusker4x4 View Post
About the effect of driving the vechile on 4x4 on for long period of time. I have had the problem with the shaft as my driver had the Jeep for 2 day and by mistake he was driving on 4x4 H.
He drove on hard surface in 4H I suppose, so that is understandable. If Behram says there is no problem to the Jeep from driving 4L throughout the offroad terrain, that is good enough for most of us here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tusker4x4 View Post
Unless you try a obstracle in a lower gear you will never have the experience of knowing that it was the right gear or not. Using 4x4L at all places is just convinience and on top of that you are not learning.
In 4L there are 4 gears to play with. When you are in 4th gear in 4L, you are practically trail driving and not offroading as in Jeep Thrills sense. In 4L I use 1st, 2nd & 3rd for offroading and 4th for trail driving, provided the trail has sufficient slip. If the trail has non-slip surface, I switch back to 2WD. This is what I learnt from Behram, so you can't say there is no learning.

To be honest, I don't understand the purpose of 4H in offroading, as in climbing, crawling, descending, etc. I feel 4H is useful only for trail driving in slippery conditions, like in Mahindra Great Escape these days. My Grand Vitara is mostly in 4H (with center LSD), which I use for street/highway driving. If I want the GV to go offroad, I go 4L then.

Edit: I moved the discussion to a separate thread since it was getting offtopic.

Last edited by Samurai : 26th February 2009 at 21:01.
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Old 26th February 2009, 22:18   #13
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There were no slippery parts in this track, it was all dry as there is no rain in this area since long. It was quite rough though.

So that makes sense, even if the offroad(not hard) track is flatish but is slippery then it is better to stay in 4x4.
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Old 26th February 2009, 22:27   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM
The technique of driving a CJ340 in a convoy during a great escape (Sharat, this is for you) is to keep it in 4*4 low and then start off in 3rd, shift to 4th and keep going. 4th low is almost same as 2nd high. In case of degree of difficulty increasing, you have 3 fallback gears.
Now this is the key word here. 4th low is almost same as 2nd high. So if the terrain doesn't need speed higher than 2nd high i.e 30~40 kmph than I think it is better to be in 4th low rather than 2nd high. In that case you have 3 gears to fallback as Mr. Behram put it.

I'll like to add here than in case of 4th low you will have two lower gears available that are sychromesh allowing you to shift without breaking mommentum.

If you find need for lower gear when in 2nd high you will never be able to shift to 1st high without loosing mommentum.

Though I personally find it more interesting to try an obstacle first in 2wd than in high and than finally in low. But that's just me.

If I were in a serious situation where getting stuck is not an option I'll always stick to low. 2nd low being my favourite.

cheers
vishwas

Last edited by Samurai : 27th February 2009 at 00:29. Reason: fixed formatting
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Old 27th February 2009, 00:10   #15
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this is an interesting discussion we have started.
Me myself do nor have any off-roading experience so cant comment anything but i think I will be learning loads on this thread.

SSS sir, its great to see you here
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