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Old 25th September 2009, 12:13   #31
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Hi everyone;
Iím new to this forum, but not new to the Indian road scene.
I did a turbo conversion on a Swaraj Mazda camper I built in Goa about 10 years ago.
It wasnít easy; for one thing, Iíd already added an AC compressor and a second alternator to the motor, so there was very little space to route the tubes.
I did all the calculations as well as the fabrication and fitting myself, except for some welding on the aluminum intercooler, which was done by a welder with more skill than I.

Ok, hereís the result; Itís wonderful.
The 80HP engine now puts out around 120, and runs cooler than stock for a given speed [I have a pyrometer in the exhaust manifold].

The output in very linier, and there is no noticeable lag. Low end torque is particularly improved, and I no longer have to downshift as often when I want to accelerate.

Engine braking is fine, but this vehicle has an exhaust brake fitted stock [Jake brake]. I know from other turbo-diesels Iíve driven that engine braking is otherwise very reduced, and I had real difficulty with a mountain descent in a loaded van.

Of course, this is a heavier vehicle than you are discussing on this thread, but Iím confident that adding a turbo to most diesels, if matched and installed properly, will give great results.

I used a book called ďturbochargers by Hugh MacInnes [1987].
A turbo from a similar sized engine that runs at the same peak rpm will [generally speaking] work. If you add an intercooler when the turbo wasnít calculated for one, it can overspeed.


I had the injection pump re calibrated by the local Mico shop.


Regards, Anjuna mark
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Old 25th September 2009, 15:42   #32
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The problem in fitting a turbo into a NA motor is ofcourse that the lower end of NA motor ain't exactly designed to take in a turbo.Almost everything is beefier in a turbo motor. You probably wouldn't see much of a difference in the Mahindra DI coz it was put there basically for emissions. The torque increase is very margianal (18kg/m from the original 16.55kg/m, so that makes just a 1.5kg/m increase).

Also plumbing is a problem and routing all the air and oil lines in a NA motor can be tricky. Most aftermarket turbo system provide you with a lot of extra stuff to beef up the system, but in most case, you will see a lot of difference in the aftermarket tubocharged motors and the stock factory turbocharged motors. For instance, there are aftermarket turbo systems available for the Toy 2l(qualis motor) and the Toy 3l(landcruiser motor), and if you can ever put both the stock turbo motor and the aftermarket turbo motor side by side, you are most likely to see a lot of differences in bearings,crankshaft, pins, connecting rods, valve sizes(and probably valve timing too),pistons, etc. Turbocharging a NA motor is not always the best option, but then again, with aftermarket parts, you always end up losing something to gain something.

The reason why turbos kick in at a certain RPM is that the Turbine Blade pitch can only maintian max efficiency at a certain turbine RPM, therefore you usually have small turbos in High speed motors(anything above 2500rpm) and big massive turbos in Low speed engines(usually used in trucks and they provide the max torque right off the idle speed, so you don't have to wait for the kick, but the lag is very much there when you want to accelerate, coz of heavier turbines), provided the turbo's there to give some amount of additional power, not just to control emissions. But the downside is that bigger,heavier turbos have a lag associated to it. Also now that Varialable turbine goemetry (variable blade pitch control) have come out(i think Alfa romeo's first came out with them), you can therefore, through computer's, change the blade pitch to get the Max efficiency at all turbine RPM's, but the drawback especially in Off-roaders is that they are also supposed to go though wet stuff, so sealing and waterproofing the electronics(same goes for the Common-rails) can be a problem.

Dual turbo system, although they provide more power, are generally good for the higher rpm kicks, and can have a lot of lag to them as they take time to spool up, coz in almost all dual turbo systems, there is a smaller turbo that feeds a bigger,heavier turbo, therefore leaving you to deal with the cons of both type of turbos.
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Old 25th September 2009, 20:28   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
The problem in fitting a turbo into a NA motor is ofcourse that the lower end of NA motor ain't exactly designed to take in a turbo.Almost everything is beefier in a turbo motor.
While this is particularly true of a petrol motor, diesels are generally already robust especially in the crankshaft and places down low. They have to be. Little if anything needs to be done to strengthen a diesel usually. It is adjusting the fuel/air mixture, e.g. recalibrating the fuel pump, that really vexes me on this above all else.

Again, if I were seriously going to do this I would do it with a moderate sized turbo just so as to keep reliability. When you compress air you necessarily heat it. A moderate or large turbo compresses air and heats it to the point where it is not efficient for combustion. Hence the intercooler which optimally cools the compressed intake air. If you do not get the intake air temperature right and the fuel/air ratio right you risk super hot combustion and exhaust gasses and you can blow an engine and melt a turbo. A turbo is not just something you can grab off the shelf and bolt on.

But turbos have come of age. They routinely last as long as a motor now when they are matched up correctly.

Any shops in India doing good turbo installs?

ps
> Hi, Brutus, good to hear from you.

Last edited by DirtyDan : 25th September 2009 at 20:30.
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Old 26th September 2009, 02:22   #34
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While this is particularly true of a petrol motor, diesels are generally already robust especially in the crankshaft and places down low. They have to be. Little if anything needs to be done to strengthen a diesel usually. It is adjusting the fuel/air mixture, e.g. recalibrating the fuel pump, that really vexes me on this above all else.
Dan; that's the easiest part, if you're talking diesel.
Diesels are not at all sensitive to the fuel/air mixture [like petrol engines]. you give them all the air you can, then inject fuel for your power needs.
If your vehicle has a Bosch mechanical pump, you can have it recalibrated however you want.
In practice, as you give the engine more fuel, the resulting increased exhaust drives the turbo higher, and your boost increases.
Mine goes up to 0.6 bar [about 10 psi] at full bore, and I've had fuel output increased by 30%
Exhaust temp is max 625C

What you say about air temperature is true, and you have to add inefficiency of the turbo as well [which becomes heat].
however, if used for only short bursts, generally it's considered that an intercooler is not needed.
Input air at my intercooler goes up to 90C when ambient is 40C, out of the intercooler is around 50.
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Old 27th September 2009, 05:08   #35
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A moderate or large turbo compresses air and heats it to the point where it is not efficient for combustion. Hence the intercooler which optimally cools the compressed intake air. If you do not get the intake air temperature right and the fuel/air ratio right you risk super hot combustion and exhaust gasses and you can blow an engine and melt a turbo.
Thanks Dan,
Actually i beg to differ. You are right as far as commercial motors are concerned. They are over-built/over-engineered for sure, coz here reliability comes into play. I mean there's no other reason why a 160hp Cummins can be modded to take out 400hp with ease and without any strengthening of the components, and 1400hp with loads of modds(which includes the crank too). Any agritarian motor too would be more or less the same way. But when it comes to the normal Passenger vehicle motors,especially the Indian ones, it's not. The manufactures try to minimise the weight, and ofcourse cut down as much of the cost factor as they can, for even a Rupee of difference can save them millions. So they are'nt necessarily as easily modded for a larger turbo, or extra power. Take for instance the Scorpio motor, the Mahindra guys were so desperate to cut down weight and cost when they derived the SEZ(NEF-Scorpio) motor from the Inter, that they actually made the block walls wafer thin, therefore in case of an accident, its quite easy for it to break open the block.

The extra power produced, and pushed down by the piston, afterall lands on the crankshaft, and its not uncommon for the Tractor pulling contest modified Dodge Rams, or Ford 7.3(or something close) V8 diesel powered vehicles to blow apart the crankshafts. And ofcourse there are way too many other variables to include in the calculations, like there's lots of torsional vibration which goes on increasing as the power and RPM's increases, which itself can blow a motor, and there are aftermarket fluid harmonical balancers that are used in modded engines instead of the normal rubber balancers(which by the way, lose their balancing ability after some time due to age). Too much torsional vibration and you'll end up with some mashed eggs for breakfast.

It's not just the thickness, and therefore strength(ofcourse metalurgy plays a major role too) of the pistons, crank, or the connecting rods, but even the bearings. I really don't think you can take the DI to a much higher level of power by just useing a bigger Turbo without risking something to give way.

And its not necessary that a bigger turbo will give you more power. I mean ofcourse a bigger turbo will add to the power levels provided the exhaust gases have enough energy to push the turbine, but there's always a threshold level to which it can do that without increase the fuel. There are turbos available for the cummins which are actually smaller than stock and still they give you more power, especially at the lower end. The bigger ones increase power at the higher end, but that happens when the gasses have enough energy to fully spin the turbine, which is something you can only get by adding more fuel, and the biggest problem is doing just that. Normally, in India, all mechanical injection motors use either the Mico bosch "A" type inline pump or the "VE" rotary pump of the same make. The "A" type is usually used only on Agricultural motor elsewhere in the world, and since there are very few people interested in modding their tractors, there are very few aftermarket parts or sources to find any sort of upgrades for them. The "VE" type is quite a common pump, and it was used in Volkswagons, to Fiats to Cummins motors. There are people who have modified the Ve pumps in Jetta's, and then again in the older (nearabout '89) Dodge Rams. The problem with the Ve type rotary pump is that it works on a single injector to push in fuel, with a revolving rotor to shift the injection of fuel from one cylinder to the other whereas in inline pumps, you have one injector for every cylinder. This limits the amount of fuel that can be pushed in by rotary pumps, especially as the Rpm's go up. Thats why even in the Cummins 6Bt motors, a stock 12mm head "ve" pump can only be modded to extract 500-600hp, and that is with the delivery nozzels, plumbing and injectors all changed. A 14mm aftermarket head produces nearby 700-750hp(but it is a aftermarket part, and even though very few people actually use it, there have been cases to these being very fail prone. It cracks the head very easily). All this is Nutz compaired to the 1400hp produced on the same motors after using a "p" type inline pump (in India, this pump came on the 4021 Tata tractor trailer for some time before they discontinued the motor, and changed the model of the tractor to 3518.The 4021 used to make about 210-230hp stock, while the 3518 makes 180hp. The problem with it was that it used to go through gearboxes at the rate of Indian Politicians making false promises. Now it comes on only the Amw trucks, but i really don't know how well it's doing on that truck). I wanted to use this pump, but i later got to know that most of its parts are imported and therefore just a pump overhaul can cost you about 1.25lakhs.

Diesel motors rely only on the fuel injection, as the air volume, atleast in theory, remains constant. In diesels, its just the amount of fuel injected that makes the difference, not a particular air/fuel ratio. Take any diesel engine journal and it will tell you that the air pressure in diesels remains constant, and only the amount of fuel injected changes, atleast in NA motors. There are some people who swear by reducing the compression ratio when increasing the boost, while there are others who go absolutely the other way around. Although i think its quite necessary to increase the head volume( or decrease the compession ratio) so that the extra air pushed in by the turbo has the extra space to occupy, thereby allowing the extra amount of fuel injected to use all the available air to burn properly.

The extra heat of the compressed air exiting the turbo is more due to the close proximity of the exhaust gases on the other chanber inside the turbo, than it is due to compression, although it plays a major role too.

A diesel motor uses compression ignition, therefore hots of heat wouldn't make it any difference, until ofcourse the temperature rises beyond a point of which it ignites, as in any diesel, when the mixture is compressed by the piston, its the rise in temperature due to compression, along with the pressure increase that ignites it. If heat was such a problem, then the IDI motors would have never used glow plugs to heat the air inside the cylinders to make combustion easier. The reason why the intercooler is used is that it cools the air, which then contracts and therefore can be pushed to occupy a smaller volume (heated air expands and therefore takes up more volume), enabling the pressure to force the air into a much smaller volume than say, what the same amount of air would have taken at a higher temperature. This, along with an extra push due to the now lesser back-pressure working against the turbo from the intake side, ensures that the turbo pushes in more air that what it could have without an intercooler. This means that by using an intercooler, you can stuff in more air inside the cylinders due to the air being cooler, than what you could if you hadn't used an intercooler.

Boost is a very misunderstood concept. An increase in Boost does not mean that the amount of air has increased, coz boost is just the pressure of the air(unless ofcourse, if the same coss-section of the tubing is maintained, then the amount of air does increase). If you push air through a small cross section pipe, it might give you lots of boost(pressure), though the amount(can we call it volume, since even a small amount of air take up all the space its given to occupy) of air might still be lesser than what it might be if air is pushed through a larger cross-section pipe at a lower boost. In any turbo system, the boost actually decreases when it goes through the intercooler (restriction offered by the intercooler fins), and after it exits the intercooler, the air contracts due to cooling and since air can occupy all the space available to it, it does just that, which further decreases pressure. Since the Volume and pressure both decrease after it exits the intercooler, there is lesser back-pressure working against the turbo from the intake side, so it just pushes in more air to fill the gap in pressure and volume, until the there is again enough back-pressure maintained against the turbo for it to be unable to push in more air. The piping going from the turbo to the intercooler(provided the cross-section and length of the pipes on both the sides of the intercooler, that is the one going from the turbo to the intercooler, and the other from the intercooler to the engine manifold) will always have a lessor amount of air in it, compared to the pipe going from the intercooler to the manifold, if the pressure is kept equal on both sides. That is why the tubing from the intercooler to the manifold always has a smaller cross-section than the tubing from the turbo to the intercooler.

As for shop for turbo modds, well i think there might be a few down south, especially in Bangalore, but i don't think they cater to diesel motors.
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Old 27th September 2009, 23:05   #36
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Brutus;
You are obviously very knowledgeable about the subject, but most any engine should be able to take a 25% increase in torque.
As RPM will increase crankshaft forces by [as I recall] RPM X the 4rth power, and cylinder pressure only increases forces liniarly, you could even drop a hundred RPM and increase cylinder pressure [say 10 pounds boost at the intake manifold and 50% fuel over stock], increasing your peak power by 40% while not increasing crankshaft or bearing stress at all.
Of course, there's still the rest of the drive train to think about.
I can dial up more power by turning one screw on my injection pump, but the clutch starts to slip [looked like a chapatti that had been forgotten in the pan].
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Old 28th September 2009, 01:35   #37
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No offence, my friend, I know you yourself have been experimenting with these thing so you have a lot of info on it too. I agree with you that they can be modded, just like any other engine, but the point i am trying to put across is something else. Every motor is over-built to some extent, it just has to be for the sake of reliability, because any motor running at the peak of its performance levels is going to go Kapput very soon. It's this over-built factor that allows rally, race, or other sport modders to B.O.M.B their motors. But since after doing that the motor will always be running closer to the thin red line line, it just doesn't make sense to modd a daily driver or an off-roader at the expence of reliability.
On the other hand, motor that come from the factory with turbo systems, have more of this over-built factor to tackle in reliability.
There's this reference book on diesel motors that states the effect of all the elements on the making of all kinds of diesels, turbo or otherwise, and there's something regarding the cylinder pressure differences between a NA and a Turbo/Super-charged motor. To quote the para along with the graphs:-
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"Figure 2.1 shows the ideal dual combustion cycle of a diesel engine in naturally aspirated and turbocharged form. Since the inlet and exhaust pressures are above ambient, and more fuel is burnt in the engine, the cylinder pressure throughout the cycle, and particularly during combustion, is substantially higher for the turbocharged cycle. The compression ration of the engine must be reduced to prevent an excessive maximum cylinder pressure being reached."
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"Figure 2.2 compares naturally aspirated and turbocharged ideal dual combustion cycles, when compression ratio is adjusted for the same maximum cylinder pressure. Since reducing compression ratio lowers cycle efficiency, and may make the engine difficult to start, there is a limit to how low a compression ratio can be used in practice."

Last edited by Brutus : 28th September 2009 at 01:38. Reason: spelling mistakes
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Old 28th September 2009, 04:46   #38
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I would say I did more than experiment; I successfully converted a stock naturally aspirated engine to a turbocharged engine, in India.
I had some advantage; as I was traveling between there and Europe, I was able to source a turbo in Europe. I bought it from a place that specializes in replacements and rebuilds. Even over there, almost no one does conversions from scratch, that is, without a kit of readymade parts and a pre-matched turbo.

You are right, the life expectancy is shortened. For my commercial engine, I can expect to rebuild after [say] 250-300,000Km instead of 4-500,000. For a lighter engine, there will be a similar effect. Rebuild after 1-200,000 instead of 2-300,000Km.
But remember, the extra wear and stress only occurs during periods of extra power production, which are generally fairly short; a minute or two for acceleration, getting out of a hole, or up a hill. An 80HP NA engine, when turbocharged and intercooled, will run cooler than stock at stock output [80HP] due to the extra air. I read that and found it from my own testing as well.
On a truck like mine, full boost will run longer; tens of minutes or more for climbing long hills, or continuously to hold speeds over 90KMH.

I was going to lower the [NA] compression ratio, but when I [finally] got the specs for the engine, I found it was only 18/1, so I didnít bother.
To lower the compression, I was going to have my excellent machinist in Goa shorten the rods. I forget the numbers now, but I think it was 0.4mm or so. To do that, he would have cut that amount from the bottom of the rod, then torqued the bearing cap onto it and rebored the bearing journal round, cutting only into the rod half. It isnít very difficult for a good machinist, better than shaving the pistons and easier than trying to cut into the head.

Anyway, although engine life will certainly be reduced, it isnít an unreasonable price to pay for the extra power; itís up to the owner to make an informed decision on that.

But Iím sure our conversation is academic; I doubt anyone reading this will try to actually do a turbo conversion, and I donít think I would recommend trying.

Matching the turbo is tough, and the plumbing isnít easy either. You need oil resistant air hose; the oil return has to be all downhill, and the re-entry to the crankcase has to be above the oil level in there. The exhaust fittings have to be tight but stress free. There are other details.
Iíve worked as an auto mechanic, plumber, and steel fabricator [amongst other things], so I had most of the skills required, and I knew who had the rest of them in my area [north Goa]. I did the research and the math, bought the appropriate turbo, got the manufacturer to send me a ďmapĒ. I found a problem with the match and swapped the impellor [getting another map] to make it right.
I got the specs for the engine, both Indian and Japanese versions, and did a lot of reading.
I built a temperature probe into the exhaust manifold, connected a boost gauge to the intake manifold, and tested the vehicle before installation, after installation, and then after fuel pump recalibration, noting temperatures and pressures.
It works better than Iíd ever hoped, but Iíve also heard a lot of disaster stories. It HAS to be done 100% right.

After I was all done, I found out Mazda had made a turbo version. The Indian military version is or was turbocharged, but I donít know how much boost or power it makes.
A local shop I know [Anand garage Apora, Goa] has been fitting lots of turbomotors into jeeps. Theyíre getting second hand ones from Mumbai; imported as scrap. Probably a better and perhaps even cheaper option than attempting a conversion.
Iíll try to find my old notebook with my test notes, and post them here.
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Old 16th March 2010, 09:44   #39
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Hi All,

I have seen people change the stock 1.3 engine on a gypsy to 1.6 to increase the power. But has anyone tried to install a turbocharger on the stock engine? Is this possible and if so why hasn't someone attempted this?

I am not too technically sound, but this question has been on my mind for quite some time.

All you guru's thoughts are appreciated.

Firoz
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Old 16th March 2010, 10:31   #40
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Hi All,

I have seen people change the stock 1.3 engine on a gypsy to 1.6 to increase the power. But has anyone tried to install a turbocharger on the stock engine? Is this possible and if so why hasn't someone attempted this?

I am not too technically sound, but this question has been on my mind for quite some time.

All you guru's thoughts are appreciated.

Firoz

It's easy to change an engine than fit a turbo and add all the electronics needed to run it, also a turbocharged 1.3 L engine needs revs to spool the turbo and it's bad for off roading, a off road vehicle should have low rpm torque and not just high rpm horse power [needed for crawling speeds].Also the small turbo is needed for a 1.3L engine to spool at say 1500rpm or so which is not available in India.
And lastly a turbo job means a lot of plumbing and additional electronics which can go wrong in middle of nowhere and very difficult to fix, so simple way to get the additional power is to go in for a transplant with bigger engine which has low rpm grunt and this is far more reliable.
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Old 16th December 2010, 20:18   #41
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Default Re: Turbos on Indian off road vehicles.

I am going to revive this thread because the MDi (MDI3200tc) is about to be reicarnated once again into the new Thar MDi. This same motor owes its roots to a tractor motor of some years back. It is robust with a particularly strong crankcase. It can be found in many Mahindra pikup trucks and Boleros.

This motor, MDI3200tc, is exactly the one I had in mind for a turbo upgrade when I started this thread. I own a 2009 Invader equipped with this engine and I would like to get more power from it.

In lieu of the arrival of the MDi Thar, does anybody have anything new to say about installing a larger (midsized) turbo on this motor? My thoughts are that a properly turbo-ed MDi3200Tc Thar should run like a scalded cat! But can it be easily done in India???

Last edited by GTO : 17th May 2011 at 13:02. Reason: Replacing with "scalded cat". Lets keep things neutral please, no inappropriate words
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Old 10th June 2013, 15:46   #42
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Default DI to DI turbo conversion possible ?

Hello Jeepers,

I own a CJ500 with a Mdi 3200 naturally aspirated engine.
I would like to understand if i may upgrade the performance of the engine but adding a Turbo kit to this baby.( Is it even possible)

If it is what are the pro's n con's to it.
Is it worth doing it ?
The cost that is involved.
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Old 10th June 2013, 22:25   #43
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Default Re: DI to DI turbo conversion possible ?

Not worth doing it. I haven't seen the DI turbo to do any better in stock mode.. Dunno if you can tweak the pump to do any better with the turbo
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Old 11th June 2013, 13:56   #44
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Default Re: DI to DI turbo conversion possible ?

But i was wondering if i could even add a Turbo kit to my existing DI engine.
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Old 11th June 2013, 18:22   #45
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Default Re: Turbos on Indian off-road vehicles

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How much would turbo'ing an XD3P cost? 50,000 - 75,000? I say, use that extra money and buy a brand new Bolero CRDe engine. It is, after all, a reworked XD3P + common-rail + turbo. If Behram shows me a convincing way to plug that into my Classic, I'm on my way to the classifieds (to put up my current XD3P on sale ).
Can the CL340 take heavier motor without issues, I mean with the kind of chasis it has. I am sure XD3P + common-rail + turbo will be heavier than 190 Kgs and would rip things apart???!!
I have bitter experience of runing heavier ones on my 3B.
- Venson
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