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Old 31st May 2009, 01:37   #1
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Default Om611 Crdi 125bhp For Trax Gurkha?

HI TO ALL GUYS,,,i need your help,,,,,inform each & every member about this, this is like a vote,,,how many of would like to have a trax gurkha with the new OM611 CRDI 125 BHP. It may come on both either the trax gama or the gurkha if there is a good response then only. First it will be coming on the travller then only we can expect it on gurkha. Any suggestions feel free to say as this will be put up at Force Motors. If you have any suggestions on the gurkha with the TD 2650 DI engine please come forward. I need to make a list about the customer expectations regarding price ,interiors & exterior. Please i request everyone to come forward & give their review.
Thanks.
Ashwat Pujari

Note from Mods : Please try to use punctuation properly. You must take a look at this thread for details. Thanks.

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Old 31st May 2009, 03:59   #2
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what is om611? what it is all about?
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Old 31st May 2009, 06:05   #3
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Dear Ashwant,

There are many Gurkha enthusiasts on this forum including three people who own Gurkhas. I had booked one but sold it upon delivery since I had to come back to USA for a year.

The OM611 would be greatly appreciated but there are some other fundemental issues with Gurkha that needs to be sorted out besides the OM611 engine. The user Rhandle on this forum is a Gurkha fan and a very honest critic so if you read his threads you will see the issues with the Gurkha that needs to be sorted out before I would consider buying it.

To me the dashboard was the biggest sore point. I think Force needs to put in a moulded dash. It doesn't have to be something that is expensive. Something on the lines of the Bolero should be fine. There is also some issues with the engine heating and ac not being effective. Also the ac needs to have a thermostat. Search for Gurkha and you will see many suggestions from people on this forum.

In addition to this Force needs to bring back the Judo, i.e 4Door Trax with OM611/4WD/AC/PS and optional diff locks. If I can get this combo, I will be the first one to get it.
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Old 31st May 2009, 08:57   #4
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HI,
Force motors first needs to make many changes to the Trax.
Exteriors > currently it looks like a cut and paste job done by a school boy on a drawing board. The designg has good potential for rugged yet striking loks but this has been completely diluted by Force.
The body rusts prematurely. This has been a problem ever since the model was launched.
Paint job and shades have miles to go before some quality is visible.

Interiors > The dashboard looks like one that has been put up just because they had to fix one there. Quality of seats, fittings and interiors need to be much more modern, pleasing and utilitarian than what is currently offered. This also includes the basic accessories provided as standard and/or options.

Chassis > the present chassis seems capable of handling the new engine proposed. However, im not too competent to comment on the same.

Engine > 125 bhp is something that is par for the competition right now. BUt honestly if Force is going to make this a 7 or 8 seater, then more grunt should be considered.

Lastly, Force needs to identify its customer correctly and position its product appropriately. If this new model in intended for the urban customer or intends to be positioned as competition to the current lineup of other manufacturers, then Force has miles to go.
The whole package needs to go back to the professional drawing board and a cut and paste approach will not to.
Besides Force will do better by making its products more price competitive and quality competitive...errr.. did I ask for too much ?

Cheers,
J
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Old 31st May 2009, 13:36   #5
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First & foremost Force has to set up a dealer base & start providing good after sales service & also sort out the reliability issues.
Its only after this that they should launch contemporary products with latest technology.
Any good engine is always welcome, funny question!

Most of the present dealers do not know an iota about the Gurkha, only the customers make them aware about the product, its such a sorry state of affairs.
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Old 31st May 2009, 17:08   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Dear Ashwant,

In addition to this Force needs to bring back the Judo, i.e 4Door Trax with OM611/4WD/AC/PS and optional diff locks. If I can get this combo, I will be the first one to get it.
Dear Ashwant,

OM611 + 4 door + 4WD + AC/PS + Diff locks = BLISS.

Rest is bonus.

Regards.
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Old 31st May 2009, 20:11   #7
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Some information on the OM611 is available at Mercedes-Benz OM611 engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Dec 2007 Mercedes Benz put out this press release on the 10th anniversary of announcing the OM611, which mentions the OM611 as their first common rail diesel Mercedes History: 10 Years of CDI - Worldcarfans

Source: Daimler AG

Press Release (Click to expand)


Ten years of CDI: Clean-burning, powerful and refined compression-ignition engines
  • December 1997: CDI technology debut in the Mercedes-Benz C-Class
  • Independent: Pressure generation and injection
  • Common rail: One pressure reservoir for all cylinders
  • CDI: An integral part of BLUETEC
Ten years ago, Mercedes-Benz ushered in a new era of diesel engines in passenger cars, with "common rail direct injection" technology, first used in the Mercedes-Benz C-Class (202 series). CDI engines have a fuel line in the form of a central pressure reservoir (common rail), from which fuel is released into the cylinders via solenoid valves as required. Common rail technology made it possible to design smooth-running engines with low emissions and high torque, and quickly became established as the new standard for passenger car diesel engines.

The latest Mercedes-Benz BLUETEC engines for passenger cars are also based on CDI technology. The outstandingly clean-burning and efficient BLUETEC engine made its passenger car debut in North America in 2006, proving so successful that the Mercedes-Benz E 320 BLUETEC was elected "World Green Car of the Year". The first passenger car model using this technology for the European market, the E 300 BLUETEC, will be launched at the end of 2007. In the E 300, Mercedes-Benz has managed to bring emission levels down even further, without any sacrifices in fuel economy. BLUETEC technology makes the diesel engine one of the cleanest and most efficient forms of propulsion the world has ever seen. The E 300 BLUETEC already meets the EURO V standard which does not come into force until September 2009.

IAA 1997: Debut of CDI technology


At the Frankfurt Motor Show (IAA) in September 1997, Mercedes-Benz launched the station wagon version of its new C 220 Turbodiesel. While previous Mercedes-Benz cars had also been described as turbodiesel models, this time the familiar name concealed a vehicle that was fundamentally different from its predecessors, and it duly became known as the Mercedes-Benz C 220 CDI. The new station wagon – along with the corresponding sedan – was the world’s first production car to be fitted with a diesel engine with direct injection based on the common rail principle. Its 92-kW (125-hp) four-cylinder OM 611 engine developed an impressive 300 Newton meters from just 1800 rpm. The C 220 CDI was thus the highest-torque engine in its displacement category and also set new standards in fuel economy and emissions.

The outstandingly refined characteristics and sprightly performance of this diesel engine were mainly attributable to the new common rail technology, developed jointly with Bosch. The common rail system differs in several important respects from the traditional design of prechamber diesel engines, and also from other direct diesel injection methods. Whereas previous conventional systems had to generate the pressure required for each injection separately, CDI engines have a common fuel line (or common rail) in which pressure is maintained at a high level by a separate high-pressure pump. This forms a pressure reservoir from which the fuel is distributed to the injection nozzles via solenoid valves. The vastly improved mixture formation process in comparison with older diesel engines is the result of high injection pressure ratings of up to 1350 bar – available even at low engine speeds – and variable injection control. The electronic engine management calculates the fuel requirements separately for each cylinder, according to the driving situation. CDI results in lower fuel consumption and exhaust emissions in comparison with other engine technologies, along with higher performance values.

CDI engines also run very smoothly, mainly because of so-called pilot injection. This refers to the preheating of the combustion chambers through the ignition of a small quantity of diesel fuel injected into the cylinder a few milliseconds before the actual fuel injection. This results in a less abrupt increase in pressure and temperature during main injection, and the engine runs more quietly. Along with the common rail technology as such, the Mercedes-Benz engine developers also incorporated some other advanced design features in the new CDI engines, e.g. the use of four-valve technology in the four-cylinder engine of the C 220 CDI.

December 1997: Market launch of the Mercedes-Benz C 220 CDI


In December 1997, Mercedes-Benz launched the new C 220 CDI on the market, in sedan and station wagon variants. Comparisons with the predecessor model speak volumes: 30 percent more power, twice the torque, and ten percent lower fuel consumption. As well as creating an incredibly economical compression ignition engine, CDI technology also produced an agile and powerful car with sports performance characteristics. The second CDI model – the C 200 CDI – followed six months later, replacing both the sedan and station wagon variants of the C 220 Diesel with naturally aspirated prechamber engines. This second CDI C-Class model was powered by a derated version of the engine used in the C 220 CDI, with the same displacement. The most dramatic improvement over the previous prechamber engine lay in the high torque developed at low engine speeds. The CDI engine also offered substantially better performance as well as lower fuel consumption and exhaust emissions.

Last edited by FourWheelDrift : 31st May 2009 at 20:13.
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Old 31st May 2009, 20:38   #8
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Sensible vehicle range from nonsense manufacturer.

In force's case seeing is believing.

A lot has been said so far on the subject,

If you can make diffrence I am with you.
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Old 1st June 2009, 01:10   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max View Post
what is om611? what it is all about?
hi Max, OM611 CRDI is a Mercedes derived engine which is been manufactured by Force Motors(Bajaj Tempo) under license from Mercedes. They have done some modifications to it to suit the indian market. The intial trial will be on the Traveller later if there is demand it might come on the Trax Gama & Gurkha. It will be one the best diesel engines available in the indian market.
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Old 1st June 2009, 01:25   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Dear Ashwant,

There are many Gurkha enthusiasts on this forum including three people who own Gurkhas. I had booked one but sold it upon delivery since I had to come back to USA for a year.

The OM611 would be greatly appreciated but there are some other fundemental issues with Gurkha that needs to be sorted out besides the OM611 engine. The user Rhandle on this forum is a Gurkha fan and a very honest critic so if you read his threads you will see the issues with the Gurkha that needs to be sorted out before I would consider buying it.

To me the dashboard was the biggest sore point. I think Force needs to put in a moulded dash. It doesn't have to be something that is expensive. Something on the lines of the Bolero should be fine. There is also some issues with the engine heating and ac not being effective. Also the ac needs to have a thermostat. Search for Gurkha and you will see many suggestions from people on this forum.

In addition to this Force needs to bring back the Judo, i.e 4Door Trax with OM611/4WD/AC/PS and optional diff locks. If I can get this combo, I will be the first one to get it.
Hi 4x4 addict, My name is Ashwat not Ashwant. I know almost every member who owns a Gurkha. Im looking into the issues making a list of it to be put forward for recomendations. The person i want to present will be Mr.Prasanna Firodia he's the one who is personally involved in the Gurkha Project. Im in touch with couple of people at Force Motors so im really keen on getting things done as Gurkha is such a vehicle which i dont wanna let this product die because of some stupid reasons. A strong marketing strategy, with proper advertising campaign and changes in the interiors and exterior ,can get this product the sales which it should get.

The Gama is nothing but the same old Judo, just a change of name has been done. Your right Trax 4 door Gama with OM611,4wd,AC,PS, and optional differential locks will the best buy. It will do wonders if they give the right combination.
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Old 1st June 2009, 01:35   #11
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For those people who are fan of mercedes cars and engines. I knew this long time back but got it confirmed too, Force Motors manufactures engines as well as gear box for Mercedes Benz which are fitted on the cars sold in the indian market and exported to germany too. They have a separate section in their plant catering to the needs of Mercedes Benz so imagine the quality Force is giving. So if your driving a Benz the heart of the car is Made by Force Motors for Mercedes Benz. I know there are lot of issues with the cars Force Motors sell which has to be sorted out before its too late.
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Old 1st June 2009, 05:11   #12
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OM 611 would have been a great engine if introduced 5 yrs back as planned. Now it is too little too late as it would not meet new emission norms from April 10, and also in comparison with newer technology engines introduced by Tata, MM etc., in their SUVs.

Will be a shame if we have to petition and beg to introduce a 10 year old engine long abandoned by its makers.
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Old 1st June 2009, 10:45   #13
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The problem is that Force does not have a gear box ready that can take the torque of a OM611. I am in constant touch with their factory people for various reasons and thats the update I got. Till such time, I would not get my hopes high.

With the kind of body rattling and loose fits the Gurkha/Judo comes, if one puts such a powerful engine in it, it would raise safety questions.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 17:20   #14
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Force India website carries a gearbox picture which is supposed to mate with the OM611. How much of a fiction/fact this GB in terms of near term availability is not known to me.

If body is bad even if this combo becomes a fact, that only adds to troubles.

Without access to continuous product improvements on the G-wagon which is the supposed legitimate/illegitimate father of Judo/Gama, I doubt Force has the volumes and moolah to invest in something really new like Tata/MM can do.

Net net, forget it.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 19:22   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrnsss View Post
The problem is that Force does not have a gear box ready that can take the torque of a OM611. I am in constant touch with their factory people for various reasons and thats the update I got. Till such time, I would not get my hopes high.
How about the gearbox used in the OM611 Traveller. All they need is to adapt it to fit a T-case
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