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Old 10th June 2009, 19:23   #1
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Default CMVR and future of Indian 4wd models

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM
Dear all - the Bolero VLX that you refer to here comes equipped with 3.73:1 axle ratio, a CMVR fallout.

Behram Dhabhar
Does axle ratio have effect on CMVR norms? The comment above suggested me to start this thread.

It has been a daunting task for manufacturers to meet the emission norms year after year. They not only have to meet the technical challenges to reduce emissions but also have to keep the costs low. Read somewhere that BS IV requirements adherance would be a heavy burden on manufacturers and as a result of it consumers may have to pay anywhere between 10,000 to 50,000 as a result of BS iv fall out! Plus there are some crash testing norms. Many models that we die for may dissappear in future as the platform may not be able to meet those norms. (for eg. we already see a derated engine for 4wd bolero for BS II...what next??, We also see a soft pad on CL550 dash board. This is again a CMVR fallout.)

I have few questions in my mind-
1. What exactly is CMVR?
2. What are the crash testing norms applicable in india for 4wds?
3. What is the maximum permissable C02 fleet average in india?
4. How will all this affect Indian 4wd market?
5. How does axle ratios effect CMVR requirements?



We are guys who offroad responsibly and have high regard for environment. Guys pour in your thoughts, these factors will decide your next 4wd!!


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Old 10th June 2009, 21:53   #2
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Vinod, I personally think that CMVR is NOT the issue. It's cost factor. If sleepy old Force motors can offer a BSIII compliant 75 bhp/190 nm torque DI engine, why not Mahindra? Why is there largest selling SUV out with 63 bhp DI Turbo engine? They could atleast offer the 70 bhp version on the Scorpio MD2I and I am sure this engine can be tweaked to put out atleast 75 bhp and manage emissions like Force has done.

I think the biggest culprit is lack of competition in the segment and lack of will. If the Bolero sells in good numbers with a 63 bhp engine since for majority of Bolero buyers value seems to be more important than performance. I am sure only a handful of Bolero VLX versions are sold especially now that the Xylo offers better VFM in that price bracket.

Unless you have an 4WD enthusiast sitting in the upper echelons of power in Mahindra or Tata, you will have products developed by Marketing and Accounting rather than the Engineers in these companies.

Last edited by Samurai : 11th June 2009 at 07:34. Reason: typo
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Old 11th June 2009, 11:42   #3
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true 4x4 addict,
I think it is all about cost. Force also offers only BSIII engines on selective models. I think only on Gurkha and GAMA and traveller. Rest all have old engines with lesser power output.

The CMVR fall out is so high that a SUMO BS III 4wd costs about 8 lakhs on road without A/C and P/S according to Concorde Chennai. But again all boils down to demand and people willing to pay price for that option.

If you observe 4wd option is sold in more numbers in premium SUV's like Endevour even when they offer 2wd version. Safari 4wd sells more than Scorpio 4wd. But once you hit below 7 lakh bracket the true offroaders which are not posers, they sell in miniscule number compared to their 2wd counter parts. Add the CMVR requirements the chances of survival of these 4wd models becomes all the more less. This is worrying me that we may loose models like Major 4wd and Gypsy in future just like we lost classic due to these norms and no demand and high price!! (for eg true 4wd's like Major cannot be registered in cities with BS III)

But what are the factors that manufacturers consider to achieve CMVR requirements? What are these norms?

Any inputs?

(p.s I also have thoughts that we must hurry up and purchase vehicles like Major 4wd or Gypsy as these are the vehicles that have attainted classic stature abroad but still made in India. Atleast we will have a piece of history sprkling new in our garage. Dont we guys envy who bought Mahindra classic new way back in 2002?))

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 11th June 2009 at 11:48.
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Old 11th June 2009, 18:12   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Dont we guys envy who bought Mahindra classic new way back in 2002?))
Very true my friend. I left India for the US in 1996. I recall on one of my trips back to India 2003, I went to the Mahindra dealership to check out the MM550 XDB. I told myself that I will buy one closer to my return to India. To this day I regret not buying it and just storing it. Sure maybe it may have rusted a bit over the years but I would have had brand new MM550 XDB in stock condition. I think well kept 4WD MM540s will hold their value, unless ofcouse Mahindra surprises us by launching the Thar here.
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Old 12th June 2009, 03:49   #5
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The Indian Army and defense may provide the impetus for change in this area. My understanding is that in recent months, since the Mumbai terrorist attacks, they have pushed for better and, surprisingly, cleaner 4x4 vehicles. World political events could hasten 4x4 development in India. Whether this trickles down to me getting a freaking locker in my new Thar or whether I just buy a horse, is yet to be seen.
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Old 12th June 2009, 14:11   #6
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Default We are loosing the 4x4's that we love!

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Very true my friend. I left India for the US in 1996. I recall on one of my trips back to India 2003, I went to the Mahindra dealership to check out the MM550 XDB. I told myself that I will buy one closer to my return to India. To this day I regret not buying it and just storing it. Sure maybe it may have rusted a bit over the years but I would have had brand new MM550 XDB in stock condition. I think well kept 4WD MM540s will hold their value, unless ofcouse Mahindra surprises us by launching the Thar here.

I share your thoughts here! When i was working with M&M in Kandiveli plant as a trainee i thought i will buy a new MM540 one day! I did buy but a 20 year old model later as that was the only proper working condition vehicle for the price i could find in 2006 december. The 2.1 litre manufactured in 2002-03 were super refined and peppy too!! I remember some Bolero custmers complaining us saying that their MM540 felt more peppier than their new Boleros!!

I just realised that Gypsy is the only 4x4 below 7 lakhs that can be registered in cities today!Gurkha is one more option below 10 lakhs but steps in Scorpio and Safari price category and is unaffordable to most enthusiasts!

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 12th June 2009 at 14:15.
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Old 9th December 2009, 19:56   #7
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The rear axle ratios affect not just the emission norms, it also contributes to NVH criteria set by the Regulatory authorities. As you go forward with a higher axle ratio your Pass by noises increase (the limit of which comes something around to 76 dB). Hence, for a manufacturer it becomes imperative to meet all these criteria keeping in mind the customers expectations of refined, powerful drive, fuel economy etc etc...
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Old 9th December 2009, 21:49   #8
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Till date there are no Crash test norms in India for any automobiles. Even if they are implemented the first ones to go will be Omni and 800.

I dont think axle ratios have anything to do with any govt norms.
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Old 9th December 2009, 22:21   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
I dont think axle ratios have anything to do with any govt norms.
You obviously know something that Behram doesn't.
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Old 9th December 2009, 22:34   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
I dont think axle ratios have anything to do with any govt norms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
You obviously know something that Behram doesn't.
I used the word "I dont think" there. That means i am not sure.

Last edited by .anshuman : 9th December 2009 at 22:38.
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Old 9th December 2009, 22:45   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
I used the word "I dont think" there. That means i am not sure.
That means you are guessing. Behram on the other hand is involved with CMVR on a daily basis. That is why Vinod started this thread based on Behram's comment.
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Old 9th December 2009, 22:53   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
That means you are guessing. Behram on the other hand is involved with CMVR on a daily basis. That is why Vinod started this thread based on Behram's comment.
I did not say anywhere that Behram gave a wrong statement, My post was about crash test norms, And in the second paragraph i mentioned used the word 'i dont think'.
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Old 9th December 2009, 23:01   #13
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In that case, that's fine. I was refering to your axle ratio comment which contradicted Behram's statement.
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Old 10th December 2009, 15:53   #14
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Guys now that the thread is revived, can you guys guess which 4x4 models will undergo change because of BSiv requirements?

I see Bolero 4wd being axed with XD3p engine. So, who ever is a fan of XD3p go and get it now. Else it is in its last stage of production. This high rev engine will become obsolete soon.

MDI3200 Tc will be BS III and BS iv models will have Crde engines. Hence will it be safe to assume on Bolero VLX will be sold in BS iv cities? or will even Bolero SLX and SLE get BSiv engine?


How will gypsy meet BSiv norms? Wil it get K series engine?
How will Gurkha meet BS iv norms till OM611 Cdre is ready?
How will Sumo meet Bs Iv norms? Will it get Crdefrom Grande?

Too many questions un answered!!

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 10th December 2009 at 15:54.
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Old 10th December 2009, 17:04   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
I see Bolero 4wd being axed with XD3p engine. So, who ever is a fan of XD3p go and get it now. Else it is in its last stage of production. This high rev engine will become obsolete soon.

MDI3200 Tc will be BS III and BS iv models will have Crde engines. Hence will it be safe to assume on Bolero VLX will be sold in BS iv cities? or will even Bolero SLX and SLE get BSiv engine?


How will gypsy meet BSiv norms? Wil it get K series engine?
How will Gurkha meet BS iv norms till OM611 Cdre is ready?
How will Sumo meet Bs Iv norms? Will it get Crdefrom Grande?

Too many questions un answered!!
All this is too complicated man. I am just going to move back to my village so that I can still buy BSII or BSIII.
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