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Old 18th June 2009, 13:38   #1
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Default Offroad Training Needs

I think I know what khan_sultan is trying to say.

The videos of the recovery are scary Standing on the Jeep, and so close to the winch cable while winching is just not done. Isn't anyone bothered about safety? Further, it's not even a straight-forward winching job. The jeep's really stuck, and i'm sure there's alot of pressure on the cable.

The cable can snap, the snatch block can slip and while at such a remote location, an accident like that would be horrific for everybody. Infact, an accident like that, where somebody gets killed or crippled would really spoil the off-roading scene for everybody.

I think some people are just not ready to hit the trail, and despite others stressing on taking precautions, are not really bothered.

Why exactly was that gentleman on the Jeep? What purpose was it serving? I think it is important to properly educate newbies esp. on recovery techniques and what can go wrong. Just meeting up for an OTR is not the way.

I think this is only happening in Chennai, where Arka holds classes etc. with technical lectures and then takes newbies on short jaunts and holds demonstrations.

Everywhere else, people just meet up and go off-roading, with the newbies not really learning anything (quick advice shouted out while tackling an obstacle do not count). I can totally understand how this happens, as most of the veterans are into off-roading to unwind and taking newbies under your wing is not really easy.

The question is, how do we ensure that people drive and behave responsibly during OTR? When people do the wrong stuff (whether through ignorance or callousness) it just sours the experience for everyone else. As Khan_sultan mentioned in one of his posts, despite being told otherwise and given advice and pointers, people still make the same mistakes every time. This of course makes it difficult for the others.
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Old 18th June 2009, 14:02   #2
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Bullet, I agree with you. I did my first offroading under the tutelage of Arka in Chennai, and you can't ask for a better teacher. It is no wonder the report was titled Offroad Training and not OTR. The techniques he drilled into me that day are the ones I still use in every OTR.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-e...am-quarry.html

If you read this report, it is very clear how Arka deals with newbie training. Nothing left to imagination, everything is explained clearly and demonstrated hands-on. We need this kind of training provided in every OTR for newbies. Now I need to attend that Jeep building class some day.
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Old 18th June 2009, 14:04   #3
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'72 bullet,

Same old obeservation and advices. I would suggest people talking about safety and so on so forth on thread to come over for OTR and observe. Rudra and jaggu , mods of Team-bhp are witness to the OTR.

Without briefing no OTR takes place buddy. Be in chennai, bangalore or elsewhere. Despite the advices, jeepers tend to make mistakes, though minor. We correct them on the spot and ensure safety of men and machines.

as regards Nitin standing on jeep while winching out, was on jeep to give balancing while right tyre was supposed to climb up the gradiant. However, the right wheel was struck on vertical slope and winching only lifted the left side up. Nitin held on to his stance. We all know that the position was unsafe for him. Will be watchful in future OTRs.

Redliner, please recollect your stunts on safety.
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Old 18th June 2009, 14:27   #4
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Ofcourse! I never said I was a *safe* guy I enjoyed the stunts I pulled, and I am still alive today. Have taken up a lot more insurance though. Arka hates me specifically because of this.

That said, I dont think I will still stand around near a winching operation. That can really be very unnerving if and when things go wrong.
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Old 18th June 2009, 14:41   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
Ofcourse! I never said I was a *safe* guy I enjoyed the stunts I pulled, and I am still alive today. Have taken up a lot more insurance though. Arka hates me specifically because of this.

That said, I dont think I will still stand around near a winching operation. That can really be very unnerving if and when things go wrong.

Perception of danger changes when you are on the otherside.
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Old 18th June 2009, 15:02   #6
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Default Teach Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by '72 Bullet View Post
The question is, how do we ensure that people drive and behave responsibly during OTR? When people do the wrong stuff (whether through ignorance or callousness) it just sours the experience for everyone else. As Khan_sultan mentioned in one of his posts, despite being told otherwise and given advice and pointers, people still make the same mistakes every time. This of course makes it difficult for the others.
Hi 72' Bullet,

You have made some very valid observations on safety. Happens from time-to-time, 15 vehicles go OTR and only one has a winch, even though it is a Behram Dabhar certified RAMSEY 8000lbs.

If a winch is fast then 2 winches is faster, so on and so forth.

How many were carrying recovery gear (Tow-Rope/Gloves/Mat)
What about rated recovery points? (Maruti Gypsy)

These are just the basics to effect a quick recovery.

Some of us have been off-roading since 2005, how many of the oldies have a winch? Surely all of us have felt a need for it.

Also if we consider ourselves veterans/experienced off-roader then, we MUST pass on to newbies what we know, even if it means sitting with a JACKASS while he is pulling stunts or his vehicle is pulling stunts OTR.

Teaching and Passing on information are 2 different things.

Outdoor/OTR driving skills have to be drilled into a person, so that it becomes a habit; a learned reflex, off-course that kind of teaching makes you very unpopular .

Another part about teaching is if the student does not learn, the Teacher is STUPID. i.e the Student is a student because he does not know, the teacher is so, because he knows and is expected to show better reason.

So instead of saying they were not picking up the skill, we have get down in the mud and grill them, till
1) They understand the situation
2) can solve the situation
3) do it actually on the ground.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 18th June 2009, 16:49   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwaraka View Post
'72 bullet,

Same old obeservation and advices. I would suggest people talking about safety and so on so forth on thread to come over for OTR and observe. Rudra and jaggu , mods of Team-bhp are witness to the OTR.

Without briefing no OTR takes place buddy. Be in chennai, bangalore or elsewhere. Despite the advices, jeepers tend to make mistakes, though minor. We correct them on the spot and ensure safety of men and machines.

as regards Nitin standing on jeep while winching out, was on jeep to give balancing while right tyre was supposed to climb up the gradiant. However, the right wheel was struck on vertical slope and winching only lifted the left side up. Nitin held on to his stance. We all know that the position was unsafe for him. Will be watchful in future OTRs.

Redliner, please recollect your stunts on safety.

About Nitin on the Jeep, I get what was being tried, but it still seems useless and incorrect, further the left side seems to be lifting up as the winch cable goes from the winch to the snatch block pulley to a shackle on the left side of the vehicle. The left side lifting up is simple physics. I understand that conditions on the ground are not always ideal, but I think that's where the training/demonstration would kick in. I think all newbies need to be a little enlightened before going on a proper OTR. Just showing up at the rendezvous point with a 4x4 is not enough. It just becomes a pain for everyone else who're regulars for OTRs I am sure you have experienced this as well.

Question is how can this be organised?

Should the Jeep thrills chapters conduct a special newbie training 'school' twice a year or something? It can be held at a location similar to the 'Hyderabad Monsoon Challenge 2008' venue, newbies can be given a talk and demo by the gurus and then a go at the course, there can also be a winching challenge etc. And then have a rule saying that people should go for that atleast once before attempting a full-blown OTR? This would definitely not be easy to organise and with time it can get a little politicised etc. but atleast it would be a positive step towards safer off-roading.

It maybe hectic for the Gurus to teach all the amateurs the skills they have gathered over time, but then payback will be when you have a nice and smooth OTR with 'educated' drivers.

What does everyone say? Can this be done? Arka's doing it already in an informal way, but maybe it's time to have this system in place at all JT chapters.
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Old 18th June 2009, 18:36   #8
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What i saw:

Winch point was full grown trees, cut down TREE stumps (well held by roots, heck i found that one he he), CJ, MM and TATA SAFARI 2 tons in gear L 2 Sometimes series winch and sometimes parallel winch.

While winching caution was being shouted out, to stay away from the surrounding area where the cable could dance if it slips/snaps, most of the audience used to run back when the winching used to start.

Atleast 4-5 vehicles were having recovery cable etc. IIRC

Not perfect but yes briefing was done in general and beginning of almost all the tasks, caution was in the air, even the actual winching was first a check pull and followed by the full out winching.
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Old 18th June 2009, 20:04   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Another part about teaching is if the student does not learn, the Teacher is STUPID. i.e the Student is a student because he does not know, the teacher is so, because he knows and is expected to show better reason.
LOL: I like this part.

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even the actual winching was first a check pull and followed by the full out winching.
Sir, what is this check pull and full out winching?
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Old 18th June 2009, 22:26   #10
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Friends,
Off roading in India has started about four years back when Anjan Cariappa started Jeep Thrills. Till then Jeeps/Gypsies were fashion statements in cities and a work horse in the farms. I happen to be invovled from the begining from Bangalore side and today if one looks at it it has grown phenomenally and in every off roading we will be have more of Newbies comming in. Time and again we were making attempts to have an awareness regarding the safety aspects of this dangerous sports. All the comments/observations in this thread requires very serious attention. Touch wood no major mishap has happened as of now. Now the time has come to have a serious look at how to address this issue. Arka has done a good job in creating a good awareness in Chennai. I must admit Bangalore requires attention.
Now what next? is the question
My view on the above from my four year association in this field are
As done in Chennai newbies definitely require exposure and practices their machines their basic functions, their limitations. Recovery practices, equipments. Actual off roading techniques( not by reading).
If the newly joined members are interested, Iam willing to spare some time for it. I will request my friends like Anand Jammy, Vinay Thomas,Giri, Srinivas, shanavaz and Dwarak who are equally experienced to spare some time and help in this exercise. We can probabily make batches of say 10 to 15 jeeps max go to some place and try out different terrains, Recovery Techniques etc
This will require some pre-requistes
1. This is a serious hobby. Members must equip themselves while comming for the practices. The whole fun in off-roading is to push yourselves and self recovery. Having an electric winch must be aimed in the long run. But to start with, the following absolutley essential recovey equipments must be available in your vehicle. It is not fair to expect get recovered by others with their equipments..
1. Fix a hook in the rear and recovery hook in the front.
2. Recovery cable(10 meters) with eyelet on both sides.
3. Bow shackles 5/8" 4 nos.
4. Gloves
5. Hilift jack(48") min( absolutely essential)
6. Shovel, pick axe,
The total expense will be around say 7000/-
The next Phase one must try to have a winch fitted.Currently in Bangalore circuit, we have only 3 vehicles fitted with winches and all of them are only self recovery ones It is grossly in adequate. If there is a budjet constraint, look at the option of using Hi lift Jack as a winch in that case you may need the winching attachment as well.( It may cost along with recovery chains around 5000/-)My jeep has both the options, an electric winch as well as winch attachment of Hi lift jack ( The latter is a bit tedious to use but sure shot. Or buy a standard manual winch.

Your vehicle.
Have a mechanically sound machine with a working 4wd.
Use proper tyres. I think Maxxis used in Shanawaz's machine is a good option
I want the views of the newbies and their commitment to this sport.
Suresh
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Old 19th June 2009, 01:36   #11
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Suresh, it is good you started this. Something like this is really needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suresh Stephen View Post
Touch wood no major mishap has happened as of now. Now the time has come to have a serious look at how to address this issue. Arka has done a good job in creating a good awareness in Chennai. I must admit Bangalore requires attention.
Now what next? is the question
Some suggestions from my side.

1) Develop a syllabus, something like 5 (or 10) things every offroader need to know before going offroad. And they need to practice that with an experienced rider first and then by themselves.
2) Conduct classes once a month, with limited vehicles, say less than 5 vehicles. If you have more people or vehicles in the classroom, students won't get individual attention.
3) Teach safety in offroading. I know this is coming from a wimp who fastens seat belts while offroading, but you get the idea. Many newbies don't know what to do when the vehicle tilts, most turn away from the tilt and risk rolling.
4) Teach basic automotive tech. List out the common problems one can get into while offroading and teach them how to get out of it. Teach them how to inspect the vehicle before and after offroading for signs for trouble. Imagine, (a) I didn't know where to look when I lost the oil hose at 1AM in the middle of the forest in Munnar. (2) On the morning of Munnar MGE, the Innova taxi driver pointed out the shackle nuts that was about to fall off. (3) Recently I was driving around the Jeep for two weeks unknowingly with a broken rear main leaf and was complaining about a tilt. And I have owned the Jeep for more than a year. Is anybody still wondering whether newbies need training?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suresh Stephen View Post
1. Fix a hook in the rear and recovery hook in the front.
2. Recovery cable(10 meters) with eyelet on both sides.
3. Bow shackles 5/8" 4 nos.
Although I got a winch, I am unable to get my hands on a front recovery hook or bow shackles. I mean where do you get this stuff? I don't have a D-Shackle or tree saver to use with my snatch block. And that is not because of lack of trying. We need to establish some source to easily get these much essential parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suresh Stephen View Post
Currently in Bangalore circuit, we have only 3 vehicles fitted with winches and all of them are only self recovery ones It is grossly in adequate.
Ahem, in the Udupi circuit we have one, that is 50% considering there are only two offroad Jeeps here.
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Old 19th June 2009, 09:28   #12
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Dear 72 Bullet - thank you for starting this thread. The importance of people being properly trained for OTRs cannot be overemphasized. One point to drive home in no uncertain terms to everybody, is that there is just nobody who just cannot get stuck. Everybody gets stuck inspite of the best machinery and sensible driving. The fun is in helping each other which fosters teamwork and healthy friendship. The most dangerous guys are the ones whose ego gets dented the moment they are stuck and this is when they start doing foolish things. My request to all trainers is to convey this message clearly to all.

Dear Arka - thanks for mentioning my name as the recommender of the Ramsey 8000. It is a good product. One more thing I would like to mention. In the numerous Great Escapes that I have done (27 till date - I don't get time nowadays) with my CL340 MH01P2540, I have always carried a 30 ft long very strong chain attached to the back of my Jeep, slung over the spare wheel which I used to pull out vehicles stuck in various stages of difficulty. The average time to pull out was not more than 5 minutes per vehicle. The technique is that my vehicle would be in 4WD low 1st gear with pull at full power with the stuck vehicle's engine also assisting. If the stuck vehicle's engine does not run for whatever reason, more often than not, the winch is the only solution.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 19th June 2009, 09:50   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suresh Stephen View Post
I want the views of the newbies and their commitment to this sport.
Suresh
Suresh sir
I completely agree with you. Most of us newbies are "learning on the job" so to speak.
I have seen lots of offroading videos and read pages and pages of reports with descriptions. But in my 2 OTR's till date, I think I have learnt more about myself as a driver and my Gypsy than all the reports and videos put together.
In my honest opinion, I am only beginning to learn about the capabilities and short comings of my Gypsy.

I agree with you on the below mentioned recovery equipment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suresh Stephen View Post
1. Fix a hook in the rear and recovery hook in the front.
2. Recovery cable(10 meters) with eyelet on both sides.
3. Bow shackles 5/8" 4 nos.
4. Gloves
5. Hilift jack(48") min( absolutely essential)
6. Shovel, pick axe

I believe that if we do a bulk purchase as a group we could get a discount which would be beneficial to all.

PS - If someone can PM me the details of the hi-lift jack (the most expensive item in the list), I could try and speak to the manufacturer about a bulk purchase billed directly to my company (Perk of being an entrepreneur), which can then be sold at cost.

Cheers
GB
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Old 19th June 2009, 09:59   #14
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Default Is it time for a formal Off-roading Club?

I will be the first one to sign up for a training session(s). I have not done any offroading and as some of you may know have been busy getting my Jeep up to snuff. There is already great camaraderie in this network, and each of us spend a good bit of time and money to find a vehicle and get restored to good condition.

I also see that there is a level of maturity reached in the off-roading circuit in India with some individuals in each city taking it upon themselves to develop the offroading community, out of their sheer love for the sport.

This may be right time to create a formal club in each city with its members not only going through various levels of training, but also contributing to safety and recovery equipment. This may also draw sponsors, not only at special events once a year, but on every OTR. What this also means is that only members of the club can go on the OTRs, which also means that they have to have a strong passion for offroading and HAVE to go through training.

The possibilities are endless when it comes to certifying mechanics, sourcing spares, cost reduction for stuff bought in bulk and continue the sharing of information and taking this sport forward!

Last edited by gbanavar : 19th June 2009 at 10:08. Reason: Rewording
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Old 19th June 2009, 13:23   #15
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Hey all,

Definitely sounds like it would make sense. People need to be educated about the techniques and risks before hitting the trail. A bad accident while on OTR would be a nightmare.

@Jaggu
I am sure that briefing was carried out properly and that is standard practice, also stumps are definitely good anchors, but Nitin standing on the Jeep while it was being winched was just not right. With proper demonstrations and classes, stuff like that can probably be avoided.

It will really be good if classes were organised even once every quarterly or so (every month would be a bit of a pain for the 'gurus' I think). After a proper demonstration, we could probably pair up a veteran with a newbie (or 2 depending on the ratio), and they can drive together with the teacher advising the student throughout, I think even a single afternoon of that will help the newbie understand alot about off-roading techniques.

As discussed, vehicle preparation is extremely important as well and should be looked into. The question is how will it be done? I think a 20-30 page manual for 'Jeep Thrills' should be printed and distributed. How can that be done? Even if it's not printed, it should be compiled and can be emailed.

What say? With a wealth of information on the 'net, not a tough task, maybe if we can even just identify one good link (not too long-winded and detailed, interesting and brief with just the basics first), it would be a good first step.
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