Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > 4x4 & Off-Roading > 4x4 Technical


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 13th August 2009, 19:18   #91
BHPian
 
RedMM340's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: on the move
Posts: 459
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fazalaliadil View Post
Dear GTO,

Like Mr. Behram pointed out, I feel too that, the best hassle free and effective way to attain good GC by 3-4 + inches is to go for 16" army rims and 31" tyres on them and leaf spring moping, I have had this on my two Jeeps, as it is, the 31" tyre gives you a the lift. The leaf springs moped for added height makes the ride stiff, which was the case with my white jeep. Until I came across the one and only, 80 year old gentleman, Mr. Janaiah who did a custom job on my leaf springs (orange Jeep).

He said "Tell me what height you want to raise your Jeep and how soft you want it?"

I was apprehensive that both could be attained in unison..
Unbelievably, he did it.

A ride nearly as soft as a car with (Bolero shocks), now that I know he can do it, my next 540 will be 3" higher than my previous.

However, check if your Classic can take the 31" tyres and without scraping the insides of you mudguards for better articulation. Its worth it.

Regards,

Attachment 170430

Attachment 170431
Rear suspension.
Attachment 170432
Front suspension.
Attachment 170433
Dear Fazal,

A leaf spring suspension uses a shackle to allow the leaf to elongate during compression. This increases vertical travel and softens the ride.

Unfortunately, the pictures shown of the orange jeep have rigidly attached the upper leaf at both ends thereby limiting the suspension travel, and rendering the shackle of no real use other than an anchoring point for the lower portion of the leaf pack.

Sorry to be critical of a nice looking jeep with a very unique looking suspension, but I just do not agree with the technical aspect of this leaf setup. I would be very interested if you could show some pics of the spring under max & min compression.

Best regards,
RedMM340 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th August 2009, 10:02   #92
Senior - BHPian
 
fazalaliadil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 2,022
Thanked: 623 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMM340 View Post
Dear Fazal,

A leaf spring suspension uses a shackle to allow the leaf to elongate during compression. This increases vertical travel and softens the ride.

Unfortunately, the pictures shown of the orange jeep have rigidly attached the upper leaf at both ends thereby limiting the suspension travel, and rendering the shackle of no real use other than an anchoring point for the lower portion of the leaf pack.

Sorry to be critical of a nice looking jeep with a very unique looking suspension, but I just do not agree with the technical aspect of this leaf setup. I would be very interested if you could show some pics of the spring under max & min compression.

Best regards,
RedMM340,

Appreciate your analysis. With due respect to your opinion, the technical reasons for the soft ride could also be, the the lower (helper) spring pack attached to the upper.

Please take a closer look at the picture again, the lower helper shacle attached to the upper is not rigid, this is where the difference is. The shock from the upper set is passed on to the lower helper due to it being fastened as one set. It is the lower set shackle that elongates during compression and at the same time maintaining the torsion required to reduce body roll.

"When I paid extra for this customization, it better be good, better than the original setup". That was what I told the guy who did this job for me.

I have driven numerous jeeps on their original factory tension and also leaf added for an extra raise.

Like mentioned in my reply (first) the white jeep though my favourite, was as stiff as a rod after adding one leaf to it, this job was dones at another place.

I wanted a raise in height and GC on the second one but was very apprehensive about the stiffness and hard ride.

I was referred to Mr. Janniah by a very experienced jeeper, here in Hyderabad who had predicted the outcome as he had got it done about 3 years back, neither did his springs slack in all the offroading in that duration nor did the ride quality diminish.

Personally for me, it is the best ride quality I have ever experienced on a jeep with leaf spring mechanism, and others who have test driven it also endorsed my experience.

The ride is just right, on and offroad.

Unfortunately, the orange jeep is in Ooty, which is where it was originally intended for. No demo pics for the moment.

Regards,
fazalaliadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2009, 02:41   #93
BHPian
 
MexXxentric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Trivandrum
Posts: 248
Thanked: 11 Times
Default

The setup reminds me of a project done by my friend- suspension with progressive spring rate.

The idea was to have different arch angles for the leaves.Also the leaves were heat treated to different levels of stiffness, the main leaf being the softest.
the main leaf alone will take the small shocks and once they flatten out due to load, the other supporter leaves will come into action progressively.


Adil,

Can you please get more pictures
From the current ones I understand that the primary leaves are restricted to elongate, which is theoritically bad.

The ride might be better as the helper pack cushions out the normal potholes and transfers the residual shock load to the main ones. Also the increased resistance to torsional flex might have added anti roll properties



Quote:
Originally Posted by fazalaliadil View Post
RedMM340,

Appreciate your analysis. With due respect to your opinion, the technical reasons for the soft ride could also be, the the lower (helper) spring pack attached to the upper.

Please take a closer look at the picture again, the lower helper shacle attached to the upper is not rigid, this is where the difference is. The shock from the upper set is passed on to the lower helper due to it being fastened as one set. It is the lower set shackle that elongates during compression and at the same time maintaining the torsion required to reduce body roll.

"When I paid extra for this customization, it better be good, better than the original setup". That was what I told the guy who did this job for me.

I have driven numerous jeeps on their original factory tension and also leaf added for an extra raise.

Like mentioned in my reply (first) the white jeep though my favourite, was as stiff as a rod after adding one leaf to it, this job was dones at another place.

I wanted a raise in height and GC on the second one but was very apprehensive about the stiffness and hard ride.

I was referred to Mr. Janniah by a very experienced jeeper, here in Hyderabad who had predicted the outcome as he had got it done about 3 years back, neither did his springs slack in all the offroading in that duration nor did the ride quality diminish.

Personally for me, it is the best ride quality I have ever experienced on a jeep with leaf spring mechanism, and others who have test driven it also endorsed my experience.

The ride is just right, on and offroad.

Unfortunately, the orange jeep is in Ooty, which is where it was originally intended for. No demo pics for the moment.

Regards,
MexXxentric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2009, 16:24   #94
Senior - BHPian
 
fazalaliadil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 2,022
Thanked: 623 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MexXxentric View Post

Adil,

Can you please get more pictures
MexXxentric,

Sorry, as I already mentioned the jeep is in Ooty presently. These are the only two more pics. available apart from the ones already posted.
Whatever the theory of how the springs work, I respect each and everybody's view.
On my next Jeep when I do the same customization, all are welcome to test drive it in Hyderabad in all conditions.
You will know when it is ready.

Regards,
Attached Thumbnails
Raising a Jeep's ground clearance : Options?-img_9124.jpg  

Raising a Jeep's ground clearance : Options?-img_9125.jpg  


Last edited by fazalaliadil : 16th August 2009 at 16:25.
fazalaliadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2009, 00:51   #95
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Planet E.A.R.T.H.
Posts: 140
Thanked: 7 Times
Default

Quote:
Dear Fazal,

A leaf spring suspension uses a shackle to allow the leaf to elongate during compression. This increases vertical travel and softens the ride.

Unfortunately, the pictures shown of the orange jeep have rigidly attached the upper leaf at both ends thereby limiting the suspension travel, and rendering the shackle of no real use other than an anchoring point for the lower portion of the leaf pack.

Sorry to be critical of a nice looking jeep with a very unique looking suspension, but I just do not agree with the technical aspect of this leaf setup. I would be very interested if you could show some pics of the spring under max & min compression.

Best regards,
Dear Fazal,

What RedMM340 says is correct, even though the main spring has the helper, it has to elongate and de-elongate (sorry for that, the suitable word is just skipping my mind) along with load and travel.

I think the only way for that would be to have a shackle on the other end of the main spring, none of the pictures shows the other end (the end that the helper's shackle is not fixed to). Wouldn't have any pictures would you? Or maybe you remember the construction? It would be interesting to learn how it works.

So what exactly is the helper? Half a stack of leaf-springs with a reduced spring rate? The set-up basically makes the springing more progressive than it already is right? How do you get the added lift then? Are the main springs cambered?

I think another way to get something similar is semi-elliptical leaf-springs. The Sumos have them at the rear (atleast the Grande does, I think it is a little stiff though).

Either way the set-up looks interesting, and if it can take a beating off-road while being comfortable, nothing like it. Also, congrats on your 2 jeeps, they're beautiful and look really well taken care of.

Sorry for all the questions

Last edited by khan_sultan : 17th August 2009 at 12:25. Reason: Please use the QUOTE button for quoting posts
'72 Bullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2009, 11:56   #96
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Planet E.A.R.T.H.
Posts: 140
Thanked: 7 Times
Default Sorry.

Sorry folks,

When i said semi-elliptical in my post (regarding Sumos), I actually meant to say Parabolic leaf springs. Semi-elliptical is what all our trucks, buses, gypsys and M&M s have, robust and simple, but also stiff in terms of spring-rate and travel. Parabolic springs are in the middle-ground between coils and semi-elliptical leafs.

Cheers
'72 Bullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2009, 11:59   #97
BHPian
 
whicked wheels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: PUNE
Posts: 365
Thanked: 56 Times
Default

Hi guys, I fitted 31" mudzilla's tyres on the classic for last sundays otr, the performance of the vehicle was really good way beyond my expectation. Though my classic is not strong mechnically as it needs an engine and a clutch overhaul so i could not push it harder but over all the jeep was stable the steering felt good and steady. The ground clearence had helped a lot. The tyres are fitted on 8j rims which give it a little more hight but going to change the alloys to 8.5 j also the wheels are spaced out using 1" spacers. Over all one hell of a ride, felt bad as i could not push it harder as i wanted to see how far it could take a beating.
Attached Images
    
whicked wheels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2009, 18:30   #98
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 46,503
Thanked: 80,118 Times
Default

Wow, nice looking Jeep, Whicked. I'd love to take a short spin over the next OTR. Were the tyres touching without the 1" spacer?
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2009, 20:41   #99
BHPian
 
4x4Roadie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Panaji, Goa
Posts: 44
Thanked: 53 Times
Default

Hi Guys, Ive been thinking bout giving my MM540 a good lift for a while now. I think SpOA is a good option. Can anyone suggest a steb by step approach to the mod?
4x4Roadie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2009, 15:03   #100
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 46,503
Thanked: 80,118 Times
Default

4x4 Roadie, Khan's SPOA thread will be a great place to start your research.
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2009, 21:02   #101
Senior - BHPian
 
headers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Greater Chennai
Posts: 4,548
Thanked: 424 Times
Default

Informative thread - Just when i was thinking of increasing the GC! Will post my decisions soon!
headers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2009, 11:47   #102
Senior - BHPian
 
trammway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chennai, India
Posts: 1,122
Thanked: 210 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by '72 Bullet View Post
Dear Fazal,

What RedMM340 says is correct, even though the main spring has the helper, it has to elongate and de-elongate (sorry for that, the suitable word is just skipping my mind) along with load and travel.

I think the only way for that would be to have a shackle on the other end of the main spring, none of the pictures shows the other end (the end that the helper's shackle is not fixed to). Wouldn't have any pictures would you? Or maybe you remember the construction? It would be interesting to learn how it works.

So what exactly is the helper? Half a stack of leaf-springs with a reduced spring rate? The set-up basically makes the springing more progressive than it already is right? How do you get the added lift then? Are the main springs cambered?

I think another way to get something similar is semi-elliptical leaf-springs. The Sumos have them at the rear (atleast the Grande does, I think it is a little stiff though).

Either way the set-up looks interesting, and if it can take a beating off-road while being comfortable, nothing like it. Also, congrats on your 2 jeeps, they're beautiful and look really well taken care of.

Sorry for all the questions
The Elongate or horizontal movement of the spring plate happens in the front shackle mount for the front side and rear shackle mount for the rear side (shackle pivot point). The hanging position of the main spring plates moves horizontally during compression to enable the curve to flat shape change of the plates.

What I understand from the pictures Fazal Ali posted here is that this setup does retain the front and rear position movement intact to the original factory setup. I stated this here because the spring plate can move front or rear when there is a compression.
Name:  J20a203.jpg
Views: 1780
Size:  69.9 KB
As per his setup, he added a plate in the inner shackle pivot point to hold the support plates. In normal scenario the rear end of main spring plate directly landing at the spring holder. Now the added shackle in the spring holder enables additional support plates to hang and absorb bump.
Raising a Jeep's ground clearance : Options?-j26.jpg
In my view what Fazal Ali did for his Jeep is a very innovative idea and I may try to incorporate this in my Explorer to increase the GC.

Here is an illustration of what I understood from the setup, but I may be wrong please correct me if my assumption is wrong here.
Name:  illu.JPG
Views: 2073
Size:  82.2 KB
If Fazal Ali allows me or my friend to give a visit to his Jeep(in ooty) to understand the setup, I will go ahead do it in my Jeep in the near future itself.

Last edited by trammway : 7th September 2009 at 12:04.
trammway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2009, 13:21   #103
Senior - BHPian
 
fazalaliadil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 2,022
Thanked: 623 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trammway View Post
If Fazal Ali allows me or my friend to give a visit to his Jeep(in ooty) to understand the setup, I will go ahead do it in my Jeep in the near future itself.
trammway,
Most certainly you can see the spring set up physically in Ooty, the Jeep is parked there. Let me know when you propose to visit so that my cousin can intimate his staff to do the needful and also I can explain the address to you. You can contact me on 0 98850 71025. Give me at least 4-6 days prior notice before your planned visit there.
Amazing analysis of the mechanism, I am not empowered enough to comment on the technical analysis you made, but can feel and differentiate the ride comfort from the stock, it is very pronounced and awesome.
Regards,
fazalaliadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2009, 13:26   #104
Senior - BHPian
 
beejay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The Nilgiris
Posts: 1,916
Thanked: 108 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fazalaliadil View Post
trammway,
Most certainly you can see the spring set up physically in Ooty, the Jeep is parked there. Let me know when you propose to visit so that my cousin can intimate his staff to do the needful and also I can explain the address to you. You can contact me on 0 98850 71025. Give me at least 4-6 days prior notice before your planned visit there.
Amazing analysis of the mechanism, I am not empowered enough to comment on the technical analysis you made, but can feel and differentiate the ride comfort from the stock, it is very pronounced and awesome.
Regards,
Interesting.
I would like to see this set up too. I would much appreciate if you are able to PM me the details as to where I need to see this in Ooty.
beejay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2009, 13:44   #105
Senior - BHPian
 
trammway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chennai, India
Posts: 1,122
Thanked: 210 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fazalaliadil View Post
trammway,
Most certainly you can see the spring set up physically in Ooty, the Jeep is parked there. Let me know when you propose to visit so that my cousin can intimate his staff to do the needful and also I can explain the address to you. You can contact me on 0 98850 71025. Give me at least 4-6 days prior notice before your planned visit there.
Amazing analysis of the mechanism, I am not empowered enough to comment on the technical analysis you made, but can feel and differentiate the ride comfort from the stock, it is very pronounced and awesome.
Regards,

I do know the location where you have parked in Ooty, my friend Jitendra(Jithu aka. Jithan) told me that he knows you(or your cousin) and your jeep and also the whereabouts. I will let you know when I plan my trip, as I have a long pending tasks in Ooty and that will make all my plans tucked in. Most probably 2 weeks from now.

Last edited by trammway : 7th September 2009 at 13:50.
trammway is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Optimum ground clearance of a Car? & how it is measured... skamb Technical Stuff 84 17th May 2017 22:36
Raising a Tata Marina's Ground Clearance vivek.singh.73 Modifications & Accessories 27 8th September 2013 21:43
Ground Clearance cartech Technical Stuff 35 10th November 2012 10:41
NHC ZX - Ground Clearance venkatrx The Indian Car Scene 17 30th July 2009 20:22
NHC Zx Ground Clearance and Ride quality mahesh4sure The Indian Car Scene 8 24th February 2006 11:39


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 09:49.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks