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Old 15th September 2009, 13:24   #1
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Default Upgrading Gypsy battery

Hi All,

I am planning to change my Gypsy 410 Battery. I want to go for a bigger battery as I have additional lights and have plans for a winch too.
Right now I have SF 38B20RD. I guess this battery’s capacity is 35AH.

I have the following questions.
  • What will the Max AH I can go for a Gypsy 410?
  • Do I need to do some wiring changes or Dynamo alterations, so that the bigger battery gets changed properly while running the vehicle?
  • Pro’s and Con’s of this alteration
Please suggest.

Last edited by krishnathanthri : 15th September 2009 at 13:26.
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Old 16th September 2009, 00:23   #2
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the extra hellas do require a stronger battery as well as alternator

Dynamo is giving power input to battery which acts as a storage and your hellas consume this power.
five 55W hellas and two 100 w headlights will demand 40A from the battery
In the stock setup u will drain out ur battery in 45 minutes.

Changing to battery with higher ampere-hour rating doesn't mandate for a change in dynamo.( u can have bigger storage. but the storage will take more time to fill completely and also to drain completely) This wont solve your problem. Hellas will still drain power out of ur battery, but not that fast.

If you change to a higher capacity alternator( say 120 amps from a GMC) and use the stock battery, that might solve the problem to some extend as the running alternator could cater the hellas.

Ultimate solution is to upgrade both battery and alternator.
I suggest you to get baleno's alternator (90 Amps rating) so that you can still get service from MASS.

If you are willing to get out of MGP/SGP circle, you got many options. Take care to select an alternator that generates the required amps at lower rpm. ie when the engine is idling.
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Old 16th September 2009, 00:57   #3
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Well, first of all, let me tell you watch out on how many of these lights you use, b'coz the extra load is extra work exerted on your engine.

You see, the alternator is nothing but a generator, just like the power generators used to power the house up during cut-outs or to power the electric motors of submersible water drawing pumps. A higher load means the generator has to work harder, and so has the engine. The point is that a higher load on your vehicle means the engine has to work harder, and is lots of lights are put on at the same time while you are travelling, it could also mean that the engines fuel consumption goes up too.

Now, the battery is just a storage device, so if you use a lot of lights (load), without upgrading the alternator, soon enough the battery will drain out of energy, and the sole electricity source left is the alternator.

For Instance:-
You suppose a vehicle having a stock 50Amp alternator(almost the same power as the Gypsy's), and a battery that you have now upgraded to 100 amps/Hour, and the reason for which is the 5 pairs of extra lights,each having a single 100Watts Bulb Filament.

The total load, ignoring the energy consumed by the various normal and necessary components of any vehicles like headlights, brakelights, distributor,etc, is
5 lights in pairs(x2) of 100Watts(x100)=1000watts,
or since Watts/Voltage=Amps, Therefore zero'ed at 83Amps.

Since you only have a 50Amp output alternator, the rest 33Amps load left would be powered by the battery, which in this case is a big 100 Amps/Hour one. The specs of any battery, like 7 Amp/Hour, means that the battery can steadily provide that amount of current for 1 hour, and in this case 7 Amperes for one hour. Therefore a 33Amp load on a battery of 100Amps/Hour means that the battery, if not simultaniously being charged by the alternator (and in case its not being charged since all the current produced by the alternator is going to the extra lights), would exhaust all of its current in 100/33=3 Hours. It means that after 3 hours, you've got a dead battery, and excess load on the alternator that it cannot provide, causeing it to heat up very quickly, toasting it along with the light bulbs and would even take the wiring along with it. Also include the battery in that list since you know that is the current level on a normal Automobile goes below a certain value(which in this will), it would not come back to life no matter how much you try to recharge it. Ofcourse if Deep Cycle Automobile batteries are used, which are the same as those that are mostly used in inverters, although here in India ppl don't use these as widely since they are expensive, you can still manage to charge it and use it normally since this battery, going just by the nature of its design, can be recharged even if the last drop of charge is extracted from it. Batteries like Optima, are deep cycle batteries, but it cost 3-4 times as much for the same value of continuous current output for a normal automobile shallow cycle starting battery(although its advantage is that it can provide a heavy amount of current at short bursts, like when cranking the starter, that the deep cycle battery has difficulty in, but Optima states its battery has the best of both worlds, that is Deep cum Shallow cycle).

Now to upgrade the electric system in your vehicle, you need to concentrate more on using a bigger alternator than a bigger battery, although theres nothing better if both are. If the alternator is more powerful than the sum to all the electrical components of the vehicle, then the only time when you'll ever need a battery is when you'll crank start the vehicle, or when you're using components when the engine is not running. The bigger the battery you can use, and in your case the biggest that can fit inside the battery box (i think a 100amp battery costs around 3.5 Grands), the better, since you still have a better chance of saving your battery(from discharging to a value beyond recovering),if you forget to switch off the lights(i can happen sometimes). Also another advantage, especially when using a winch, of using a bigger battery is that you atleast stand a chance of extracting your vehicle using a winch, powered solely by the battery, like in emergencies where the engine is not running anymore, something that can quite commonly happen when offroading.

There are quite a few vehicles here that use big alternators, although the massive 300Amp/Hour alternators ain't available in India. Mahindra Scorpio and Tata Safari use alternators rated from 90Amps/Hour to 135Amps/Hour (the Safari uses the 135Amps alternator, while the Scorpio uses the smaller one, although i think after the CRDe Scorpio came out with the heavier load of the electronic engine, the company wallas surely might have shoved in a bigger alternator). Moresoever, there are other vehicles like Ford,etc, that too might be having the same alternator sizes.In petrol motor powered cars, the biggest i've seen is the one used in the Opel Astra. It has a Bosch 14.2-14.6volts 130Amp alternator, and second hand versions are easily available foraround 1500 bucks. Don't go for the alternator used in the diesel Astra, as it quickly finishes off the carbon points, and just a pair of those points can cost around 10 Grands.The problem with alternators used in a diesel motor is that they have an extra pump fixed to it that is used as a vacuum pump for the power brake booster. Not that it would render the alternator useless for petrol cars, but infact make the pump more expensive to buy.
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Old 16th September 2009, 15:22   #4
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Default Alternator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
The problem with alternators used in a diesel motor is that they have an extra pump fixed to it that is used as a vacuum pump for the power brake booster. Not that it would render the alternator useless for petrol cars, but infact make the pump more expensive to buy.
Bikram,

This is exactly the reason i back off from upgrading my MM550 alternator. I had a deal of picking up a Safari 130AMP alternator. But how do i deal with vacuum pump which is there on my existing Alternator?

Thanks
--Sree--
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Old 17th September 2009, 12:14   #5
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THe basic question is where is the space under the hood of a Gypsy MG413 W to put even a 55AH battery, there is simply no room there!

Does anyone have a pictre of a battery base plate modification ?
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Old 17th September 2009, 13:22   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
THe basic question is where is the space under the hood of a Gypsy MG413 W to put even a 55AH battery, there is simply no room there!

Does anyone have a pictre of a battery base plate modification ?
Desert fox - your comment on space is quite right - the battery sits on the mudguard so you cannot modify your base plate to seat a taller battery.
With the existing battery itself, the battery damages the bonnet whenever its clamps break off - This was the answer to the mystery of the upward dents that i found on my bonnet.

Cheers
GB
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Old 17th September 2009, 13:30   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gypsy-Boy View Post
With the existing battery itself, the battery damages the bonnet whenever its clamps break off - This was the answer to the mystery of the upward dents that i found on my bonnet.

Cheers
GB
Firstly i thought some stone has hit my bonnet but few days later I am seeing dent still did not figure out how luckily I had to change relay and mech was trying to fix it then to see battery moving no clip on it then i figured out why there is dent on my bonnet.
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Old 17th September 2009, 23:01   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreerajunnithan View Post
Bikram,

This is exactly the reason i back off from upgrading my MM550 alternator. I had a deal of picking up a Safari 130AMP alternator. But how do i deal with vacuum pump which is there on my existing Alternator?

Thanks
--Sree--
Hi,
Safari alternator has the vacuum pump, you should be ok with it.

RGDS

Ignazio
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Old 18th September 2009, 21:47   #9
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I happened to see a peugeot whose engine bay was burnt completely due to a battery short circuit.
The vehicle had a tall, after market battery.Some kids playing on the car, sat on the hood, flattening the sheet metal to initiate a short circuit spark.
the result was disastrous. Entire engine bay was charred to total loss.

So take care of this point while deciding for new battery
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Old 21st September 2009, 11:37   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
Well, first of all, let me tell you watch out on how many of these lights you use, b'coz the extra load is extra work exerted on your engine.
==============
Not that it would render the alternator useless for petrol cars, but infact make the pump more expensive to buy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MexXxentric View Post
the extra hellas do require a stronger battery as well as alternator
============================
If you are willing to get out of MGP/SGP circle, you got many options. Take care to select an alternator that generates the required amps at lower rpm. ie when the engine is idling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
THe basic question is where is the space under the hood of a Gypsy MG413 W to put even a 55AH battery, there is simply no room there!

Does anyone have a pictre of a battery base plate modification ?
Hi All,

I have changed my battery. I bought AMCO 65AH Battery(2 years Guarantee and just Rs3500 including fitting). The space is just enough to fit the battery. I just have to alter the clamp to fit the wider battery. Lights are pretty bright now . Thanks for all you peoples advice.

Last edited by Jaggu : 10th October 2009 at 00:55. Reason: Please avoid Quoting entire large posts for short reply, Thanks
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Old 21st September 2009, 11:53   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MexXxentric View Post

I happened to see a peugeot whose engine bay was burnt completely due to a battery short circuit.
The vehicle had a tall, after market battery.Some kids playing on the car, sat on the hood, flattening the sheet metal to initiate a short circuit spark.
the result was disastrous. Entire engine bay was charred to total loss.

So take care of this point while deciding for new battery
There is very little gap after i fit my 65AH battery. Right now i have kept a tube piece on top the battery. I may paste the rubber tube piece perminantly to the hood or find something like this

Name:  carbattery.jpg
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Problem is , This rubber piece comes only with a new battery wire.(As told by the electrician)
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Old 21st September 2009, 12:02   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gypsy-Boy View Post
Desert fox - your comment on space is quite right - the battery sits on the mudguard so you cannot modify your base plate to seat a taller battery.
With the existing battery itself, the battery damages the bonnet whenever its clamps break off - This was the answer to the mystery of the upward dents that i found on my bonnet.

Cheers
GB
OMG. I have to check my hood for dents as soon as i reach home today. I drove it without battery clamp, that too in a bad road.
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Old 21st September 2009, 21:55   #13
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I know this particualr issue may be resolved but, for the record, you can cut an old piece of rubber mudflap or floor mat and place that on top of your battery, or wherever, to keep it from contacting metal.

Also, you can place the battery elsewhere. It does not have to go under the bonnet if you find a better place for a bigger battery....or two batteries for that matter. Just remember battery acid is nasty stuff and you do not want it sloshing around loose.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 14:43   #14
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Two batteries would require a cut out circuit. Placing two batteries in parallel without a control unit would lead to charging and drain out problems. If another battery is installed, prefereably a deep cycle one ( like Optima ) for winching and extra load then a full cut out circuit is recommended.
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Old 25th September 2009, 11:36   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreerajunnithan View Post

This is exactly the reason i back off from upgrading my MM550 alternator. I had a deal of picking up a Safari 130AMP alternator. But how do i deal with vacuum pump which is there on my existing Alternator?
Sorry for the late reply,
Even though the Safari alternator does have a Vacuum pump,you need'nt worry even if you come across a non-pump alternator like i.e. Astra's Bosch120A, or even more powerful Alternators used on some Russian Army trucks(available in Junkyards, some as powerful as 300amps, but the russians generally use 28Volts. There are imported ones used on some other embassy auctioned vehicles and you can even find the Water-proof,water-cooled alternators there, like the one that some Mercedes use).

The reason why i say this, is that the Toyota 2L motor, the one used on the Qualis, has an extra pump, and not the alternator, totally indulged in just making the vacuum source, and you can use that. The only problem is that you would have to use one more pulley and a longer belt.

And for the Battery project, Do you know that the Army Trucks, like the Ashok leyland, have 2 switches on either side of the body. One is for switching between the two fuel tanks, and the other is for both switching between and cutting off batteries. You can therefore use two batteries in the vehicle, both connected in parallel to each other, and then you can, if you want to, use this switch too, for switching inbetween batteries.
Regards,
Bikram

Last edited by Brutus : 25th September 2009 at 11:41.
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