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Old 18th March 2010, 18:16   #31
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Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
All that is fine Mohan, Gurkha is much more comfortable than a jeep. Agreed! But what options do you have to improve the vehicle off road performance? Snorkel agreed, Diff locks agreed. But Gurkha just cannot move off road without diff locks!! So its not an addition but a necessity in case of Gurkha!
Vinod I have hardly used diff. locks. Diff locks are not panacea for everything. It's not a necessary just to move Gurkha forward. I had had use of diff. locks in NIOC OTR, and I have even posted one video where it shows when to use. In that kind of case any vehicle would not come out except for one with diff. locks. in One case even safari 2.2 with "140" bhp and "300+" NM torque got stuck and had to be pulled out since one of its rear tire had come on small rut and lifting the other rear tire. Front two tires were not able to pull it out because of lots of sand. Gurkha got stuck in same position and it just came out. NIOC members can tell you about this.

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Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Gurkhas engine is anemic! Every one would agree that Gurkhas engine is under powered off road. Please suggest upgrade for it. Which engine?
I do not know whether anemic or not, or is it just the power to weight ratio. On road I have done 120- 140 kmph on this vehicle. MM550 has 75 bhp same as this and is most probably lighter than this vehicle, I dont know if it can do that speed.

I do feel at times about this, but as I am learning, I feel at most places it is able to do stuff with it's low end torque. I do not need to take off like gypsy in many instances. But yes my techniques are still not up to mark, and may be in few years time I shall be able to share my experiences well enough and comment with some knowledge gained.

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Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post

Ok if you don't want to change engine, can you reduce axle ratio on Gurkha? M&M jeeps are not powerful by any chance. They make it up by lower axle ratios.
Axle ratio I guess are already low. Since I don't have much knowledge about it wont comment on it.

Gear Ratios as from owner manual are:

1st gear: 4.695:1
2nd gear: 2.401:1
3rd gear: 1.436:1
4th gear: 1.00:1
5th Gear: 0.806:1
Reverse: 4.078

rear axle/front axle ratio : 4.9


Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post

Whats Gurkhas GC? 210 mm? MM550 XD army's GC is close to 240 MM. Can you fit 32 inch tyres in Gurkha to improve GC? Ok does company even support you with stock parts leave alone an upgrade?
Gurkha's GC is 238 with 7.5x16 (31.64") tire size. I have put 275x75x16 (32.24"), which has 15.24mm extra dia, thus it increases my GC by 7.62 mm. Therefore what I have is around 245.62mm as GC. Mind you there is not even a single change done anywhere to fit these tires.

Gypsy vs Jeep Modification | Ease, reliability, parts availability & common myths...-cm-capture-1.png

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Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post

p.s - please post the pic of your water fording achievement.
Well I guess few of those pictures and testimony by fellow bhpians are posted in 4x4 excursions forum. That day Mohan had no modifications done to Gurkha it was stock with OEM tires.

I do not want to compare it with Jeeps, but I know in competent hands it can be more competitive than any other vehicle produced in India - stock condition.
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Old 18th March 2010, 19:17   #32
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
OT- The wind has finally changed directions now, although the intensity remains the same
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
In my opinion and my experience, gypsy for me would be easy to mod and maintain with the mods.

Still i own a CJ3B
WHY Jaggu WHY? Could you not find a GYPSY

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Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
The underlying point is you will be happier with a Gypsy because there isn't much to fiddle around. With a jeep you always want to make it something different as you have plenty of choices around!!
Not really VN! And you've known me for 3+ years now!

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Originally Posted by rhandle View Post
but I know in competent hands it can be more competitive than any other vehicle produced in India - stock condition.
How is the RELIABILITY?
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Old 18th March 2010, 19:30   #33
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Now to REALLY BUST THE MYTH, lets at least see, one Gyspy in INDIA with a wider track (than Stock) with Lower Diff-Ratios and FFRA.

Regards,

Arka
Dear Arka,
Isn't this Gypsy of Allan sporting a wider track?
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attach...bag-otr-2-.jpg
There is also a thread showcasing this vehicle.
Here is the link http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...py-no-2-a.html (Xtreme Power's Spoa'd Custom Crawler(Gyspy No.2))
Nothing to prove or anything. Just wanted to share it with you, in case you haven't seen it already.
Cheers,
Deepak
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Old 18th March 2010, 19:36   #34
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post




Hi Shahnawaz,

Now to REALLY BUST THE MYTH, lets at least see, one Gyspy in INDIA with a wider track (than Stock) with Lower Diff-Ratios and FFRA.

Regards,

Arka
widetrack gypsy with articulation to make a jeep feel jealous
mind you though , im a jeeper
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Gypsy vs Jeep Modification | Ease, reliability, parts availability & common myths...-gy.jpg  

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Old 18th March 2010, 19:39   #35
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Originally Posted by starter View Post
...Isn't this Gypsy of Allan sporting a wider track?...
Maybe a wider track, but IIRC, that it is due to the bigger tyres and not due to wider axles than stock.

PS : there seems to be some problem with the images in that thread now.
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Old 18th March 2010, 21:54   #36
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How is the RELIABILITY?
I do not know about Jeeps and Gypsy so ca't say much how reliable they are vis-a-vis to them.

I have driven from Delhi to Mumbai-pune and back and Delhi to Gangtok. Delhi to Mumbai was hit in 20 hrs. This has been my regular, not second vehicle - attending OTRs, going to office next day and yes several short trip to corbett (300kms one way) and Bandhavgarh (950 kms one way). I personally doubt any other vehicle would be capable of this.

I had my initial teething troubles, as there was no previous owner of DI engine who could have guided me. Initial workmanship - which tightening of nuts and bolts were issue. They were sorted out soon enough. Right now without any preparation I have the confidence of picking my vehicle and going anywhere - taking 1000-2000kms journey without issue along with my family, and completing it faster and safer than most of the regular off-road vehicles I see at the OTRs.

I am sure now if I have to buy it again and given a chance just to buy one vehicle it would be this and this time there wont be much complaints!!
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Old 18th March 2010, 22:01   #37
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With my experience in US and India and having been one of the early owners of Gypsy, one thing its not is unreliable, that simply is the biggest understatement. Gypsy if kept within proper modification is one of the most reliable off road vehicles out there in petrol category, not to mention competent as well. I would rarely ever see the Samurais breaking down at Rubicon and elsewhere as compared to the number of JEEPs I would see with busted diffs, engines and failed trannies, the auto Jeeps were an even bigger joke.

Reliability of Gurkha is not even a question here, specially in company of Mahindra scrap bin vehicles unless one questions the very nature of Mercedes Benz design. Everything in Gurkha is over-engineered and properly designed, the fact that my Gurkha has crossed 129000 km and all I have done is change rubber bushes and shockers speaks for itself. The power train gets minimal stress due to shock absorbing hollow tube propeller shaft and divorced transfer case on swing arm bush. The engine, even the DI one is now proving to be quite close to the older IDI 616 engine in terms of longevity and reliability.

Last edited by Gurkha : 18th March 2010 at 22:13.
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Old 18th March 2010, 22:32   #38
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@Xtreme power well said, never knew something like this exists.

Spike
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Old 19th March 2010, 01:01   #39
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Originally Posted by headers View Post
WHY Jaggu WHY? Could you not find a GYPSY
Coz they are obnoxiously priced in second hand market

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhandle View Post
I do not know about Jeeps and Gypsy so ca't say much how reliable they are vis-a-vis to them.

I have driven from Delhi to Mumbai-pune and back and Delhi to Gangtok. Delhi to Mumbai was hit in 20 hrs.
==========
I am sure now if I have to buy it again and given a chance just to buy one vehicle it would be this and this time there wont be much complaints!!
No comparison on reliability front, afterall its available brand new and built with better engineering

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@Xtreme power well said, never knew something like this exists.

Spike
Allen what axles are those, or is it just the wheels?
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Old 19th March 2010, 10:43   #40
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When I went for my first OTR, I was in awe of the jeeps for their crawling abilities (the OTR was all rock climbing).
(PS - Khan and Dwarak's Gypsies were the only Gypsy crawlers with their modded vehicles)

It was only after my second OTR that I realised that Gypsy owners were NOT spending their Mondays or subsequent weekends repairing their vehicles.
Besides OTR's, I have also used my Gypsy to transport loads of 1 to 1.5 tons. In the one year that I have had it, I have run about 15K kms and my total service/repairs bill is as follows
1) Service of front Diff with all oil seals changed - 2.5K
Done at RAC, Time - 2 days
2) Regular service incl removal of Gas Kit - 2.5K
Done at Mandovi - Wilson Garden, Time - 3 days
3) Change of Clutch assembly, front brake disks and pads - 6K
Done at Mandovi - Wilson Garden, Time - 6 days (this is because I chose to leave the vehicle there - actual work time - 2 days)
4) In between I had done an engine oil change myself - 1.2K
Done at my house, Time - 1/2 hour


Now to the question of other mods -
1) Lockers - readily available (in the US) and lots of choice too
2) Crawling gears - readily available (in the US) and lots of choice too
3) SPOA - again easily done with minimal issues

There are multiple kits available in the US (Samurai) and Australia (Sierra) for any and all mods .

Now to all the Gypsy fans who are smiling reading this, GYPSY ROCKS!!!

Cheers
GB
PS - This post is not intended to show Jeeps in a bad light but to highlight the advantages of the Gypsy.
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Old 19th March 2010, 10:48   #41
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Originally Posted by mohan View Post
All the same thinking about modifications on the Gurkha--lets see Improving GC , differential locks, AC ,Power steering ,Power take off ,sealing the engine & alternator,snorkel,a 3L warranty on engine, roll cage ,rugged axle, tubular chasis...man it beats me what else can you modify?
Hi Doc. Mohan

1) GC Depends on Tyres the Army MM550XD GC is 238mm with 7.50X16

2)Diff-Lock that the only uniqueness in the Gurkha.
2a) The Puch T-Case is an asset on that vehicle.

3) PTO - JEEPs have been fitted with PTO's since 1945. And All M&M JEEPs with Spicer 18 (T-18) T-Cases can take a PTO.

Besides what can you do with a Gurkha's PTO, at least for the JEEPs we make "Jugaad" PTO Winches from old TLC PTO winches or fit OEM Koenig PTO Winches for JEEPS.

4)The M&M JEEPs New-Generation Axles are Much Much more rugged that what Force offers on the Gurkha.

i) Front Axle OKBJ 1400kgs
ii)Rear Axle SFRA 1600Kgs FFRA 2000kgs

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1167457-post635.html

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1167555-post649.html

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1229032-post837.html


5) Tubular Chassis is not the best for an Off-Roader or for A load Carrier at best its a compromise, since its easy to build.

Why does the new M&M Vehicles all have a Box Section Chassis.

The Land-Rovers were famous for their Chassis ( Box-Section)

The TLC - Box-Section.

The G-Wagen again Box-Section.

The reason is Higher Torsional Rigidity.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1692978-post1.html

6) Roll-Cage? Does the Stock Gurkha come with a Roll-Cage.

The IFS of the Gurkha is nice of all-round work. Try fitting a Winch and then we'll see what happens to the Torsion Bar.

Also the IFS makes the vehicle dive, and the rear lifts up on Down Slope, and if it is off-camber .

Regards,

Arka
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Old 19th March 2010, 11:31   #42
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Default Experience & Junk Yard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
All this brouhaha........the lowly Force motors Gurkha can't even be in the hallowed halls of the mighty relic of WW-II, with its invincible live Dana axles, legendary petrol engine or Pukegot diesel, its is an indomitable force to be reckoned with.

Even with lower ground clearance, it manages to humble the likes of Land Cruiser, Gelande Wagen so Gurkha can't even be in this picture. Also one can't head for the nearest junk yard to go find replacement parts for the Gurkha but thats not the case with the legend, just look into any government warehouse or garage and you will find something that fits it.

Now for IFS, last year, the renowned 4WD magazine in US pitted a stock FJ against a stock Wrangler Rubicon unlimited, mind you, the later comes with the legend Dana 44 front and rear, electric sway bar disconnect up front.

I guess this mag must be doing some serious smokes or else they just don't have person of caliber like ex Palar and Coorg veterans who have commandeered their mighty relics to heights untouched by any.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
FUD, lies and yarns galore, JEEPER speak I guess. Gurkha's GC stock with 16" tires is 238mm, compare that to measly 210mm in Mahindra, Gurkha's diff locks are an asset to be used in conditions that would bring every other off road vehicles to their knees. Actually it manages to do quite well without lockers As for it being anemic, wow thats like the pot calling the kettle black specially coming from a relic that can hardly even make close to 30bhp DIN, even the Pukegot engine makes alleged 72bhp which is way less than the OM616 turbo's 91bhp DIN or the DI's 75bhp DIN.

As for axle ratio, Gurkha already comes with a stump puller rear ratio and combine that with 4WD low and it virtually climbs most hills without needing any throttle inputs.

When anyone speaks of power, that shows the level of immaturity of that person. Power never ever gets you anywhere or else the V12 Brabus G with 770bhp would be the choice of G Wagen off road enthusiasts but thats not the case, the choice is diesel powered 170bhp engine instead. I have seen Unimogs with 36bhp DIN managed to humble vehicles with four times the bhp at Rubicon.
Hi Doc.

Nice to have you back in the discussions.

What is Ground Clearance?

The Vertical Distance between the Lowest Point on the Differential and the Ground.

For M&M JEEPs its 180mm to 238mm for the same differential i.e DANA44
6.00X16 to 7.50X16

In my 5 years of recreational off-road driving I have hit my differential twice (without any damage) once with 210mm GC and once with 238mm GC.

But the winner of the GC contest is not the JEEP, it is the GYPSY.

for a 31" tyre the Gypsy has almost 260mm of GC, because of the smaller diff-pumpkin.

1)wrt the FJ Cruiser vs Wrangler please post link of the Magazine article.

2) What is the Stump Pulling Ratio 4.9:1 or 5.3:1.
The JEEPs have been using those ratios since 1941 and 1947.

lets look at the Crawl Ratios (1st X Low-Ratio X Diff-Ratio)
1) Gurkha
4.7 X 2.04 X 5.3 = 50.8:1
4.7 X 2.04 X 4.9 = 46.98:1

An Ordinary JEEP CJ340 with the XDP4.9
3.986 X 2.46 X 5.38 = 52:1

The Junkyard JEEP my MM540XD with XD3P
3.986 X 2.46 X 5.38 = 52:1

I changed the stock diff-ratio's with second hand Crown & Pinion to 5.38:1

3)Lets look at engines.

the OM616T is 90bhp & 19Kgm how much does it weigh 260Kgs.

The XD3PNA is 72bhp & 15.5Kgm weight 194Kgs.

The XD4.9P and XD3P have an average life of 90K kms in INDIA, rebuilding is cheap especially the Jugaad Rebuilds. 12-40K depending on budget.

4) Where have you seen the Unimog beat a vehicle 4 Times powerful?

Please post the pictures and videos and give us a detailed account of this visual experience.

The only Unimog I have seen is with Mr. Uday Bhan Singh, so to hear and see the LEGEND in action would surely be a treat for all of us.

Did you compare the power of the OM616T to the lowly XD3P? and talk about immaturity.

Some of us are gutsy enough to take our vehicles off-road and organize a safe OTR for all the participants, and not just sit and quote a "GERMAN" magazine article printed 10yrs ago, and try to draw parallels to Pedigree, that of Mercedes and G-Wagen.

We have seen one Gurkha in Coorg and it failed to impress, with its High GC, Puch T-Case and diff-locks, and we attribute it to the inexperience of the driver.

wrt. TPC (The Palar Challenge) either they are plain scared or the Event is just too ordinary for a Gurkha to participate, since it earned its off-road street cred on a German magazine.

And off-course to be an Expert in INDIA, one has to bow down before every bit of foreign technology.

And those who don't are
i) cheap,
ii) junk yard builders,
iii) cannot read german
iv) anemic
v) inexperienced
vi) unfair
vii) ALL OF THE ABOVE

Its the case of HIDALGO/Sea Biscuit or just a Mongrel ripping open a thoroughbred.

Happens all the time.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 19th March 2010, 12:01   #43
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This would make an interesting read now. Two gr8s out on open.

By the way listening to both of you, I just realized the best thing to offroad would be the one below. I understand it would look odd while going on this, but then when you get down to milking a jeep it would look further odd And yes it would clear the slush, and lakes which both can't do with all the modifications in the world!

Yes I am thinking about Bicyle too... it would go places where both jeep and Gurkha can't go.

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Old 19th March 2010, 12:24   #44
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This would make an interesting read now. Two gr8s out on open.

By the way listening to both of you, I just realized the best thing to offroad would be the one below. I understand it would look odd while going on this, but then when you get down to milking a jeep it would look further odd And yes it would clear the slush, and lakes which both can't do with all the modifications in the world!

Yes I am thinking about Bicyle too... it would go places where both jeep and Gurkha can't go.
Nice one.. & the exhaust bi-product will make it a "Green", Eco-friendly offroader.
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Old 19th March 2010, 12:48   #45
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Speculations again........of course whadya expect from people whose concept of off roads is some small small sewage creeks and some anthills.

OM616turbo weighs in at 210kg and not 260 as indicated by resident Mercedes/Gurkha expert.

The new MM550 specs still pale in terms of Gurkha's specs.

Gurkha's front diff is rated at 1800kg and rear at 2750kg, both are derived from commercial load bearing vehicles. Don't go linking silly dimensional arguments on those links. Mercedes-Benz TN - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia MB407d have GVW of 4600kg

WOW! I see that the Gurkha experts here have more knowledge than most MB engineers.

I am getting lessons about ground clearance from someone who has limited perspective of doing off road in a assembled scrap bin JEEP for the last five years. So I guess increased ground clearance is not a prerequisite then in any off roader worth its salt. Well I have never managed to hit the sump of my low ground clearance Accord in US, came close to scraping my ground works front chin spoilers on occasions but never any serious damage. Does that mean I should head out for the nearest bush on my Accord.

We are comparing the current Gurkha with its 75bhp vis a vis the Pukegot and not the 91bhp OM616 turbo here and in lieu of that, I guess the former does it quite well.

You have only seen one Gurkha at Coorg, how bout countless OTRs done by Rhandle and Dr. Mohan and their videos and posts, I guess you and your Jeep boyz get selective blindness there

Lastly, its not bout reading German, this is classic case of driving in the dung and getting it all over your nice shiny new vehicle.

As for tubular chassis's superiority, well since Mog and Pinzgaeur are very ordinary load bearing vehicles and are not the legends they are purported to be. The physics of chassis when taken off road is flexibility, thats where tubular excels, any ninth grade student can tell you about that, its basic T/J so as long as it is within Mohr's circle, its well within limits. A box frame chassis simply can't offer that much of flex and not suffer stress, having owned and driven both extensively off road, I would fully concur. The problem is tubular chassis is an extremely expensive affair, the Force guys managed to get the tech due to their old association with Tempo, currently the only place in Europe where its manufactured is at the PUCH Graz factory and nowhere else.

Anyways, this debate has happened may a times to point of sickening redundancy, as I said, Gurkha is surely a piece of dung as instead of attracting and going against the likes of TLC, G Wagen, Pajero, all it does is attract gnats and flies which are native of bovine effluence.

Btw Rhandle, I am no great, haven't done the necessary route of driving or owning scrap vehicles or paid the quintessential obeisance to the lords of off roads namely SAAAAAAARRRRRR so I am not fit for any greatness, I just have the misfortune of owning a Gurkha and now a Toyota HiLux which I will be posting the report as well. Of course, to the veteran scrapyard parts bin vehicle owners, thats another piece of toy anyways.

Btw, I also have some extended time on George Jessup's 38bhp Unimog at the Rubicon but then who would be interested in a Mercedes tubular chassis 38bhp relic when they have the rugged Mahindra to deal with.

Last edited by Dippy : 19th March 2010 at 16:11. Reason: Deleting extra smiley. Please use only two smilies per post
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