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Old 19th March 2010, 13:13   #46
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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
S
OM616turbo weighs in at 210kg and not 260 as indicated by resident Mercedes/Gurkha expert.

Gurkha's front diff is rated at 1800kg and rear at 2750kg, both are derived from commercial load bearing vehicles. Don't go linking silly dimensional arguments on those links. Mercedes-Benz TN - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia MB407d have GVW of 4600kg


As for tubular chassis's superiority, well since Mog and Pinzgaeur are very ordinary load bearing vehicles and are not the legends they are purported to be. The physics of chassis when taken off road is flexibility, thats where tubular excels, any ninth grade student can tell you about that, its basic T/J so as long as it is within Mohr's circle, its well within limits. A box frame chassis simply can't offer that much of flex and not suffer stress, having owned and driven both extensively off road, I would fully concur. The problem is tubular chassis is an extremely expensive affair, the Force guys managed to get the tech due to their old association with Tempo, currently the only place in Europe where its manufactured is at the PUCH Graz factory and nowhere else.

Btw, I also have some extended time on George Jessup's 38bhp Unimog at the Rubicon but then who would be interested in a Mercedes tubular chassis 38bhp relic when they have the rugged Mahindra to deal with.
Hi Doc,

1) Forget the Deriviation, and its implications.
Since its not the same unit and the Front is IFS.

This is what the Force Brochure says

Front 1150Kgs
Rear 1660Kgs

Force Brochure
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1229032-post837.html

2) Tubular Chassis.
1) Steyr-Pinzgauer uses a Spinal Backbone Column so does the Tatra Trucks (813/815/817)

Difflock :: View topic - Coming over from the Swedish side

2) The Unimogs use a C-Section for the truck and Box Section for the Lighter versions.

Unimog 6x6

http://www.moginalong.co.uk/OurMog/I...me-Chassis.jpg

http://www.ki7xh.com/chassis.jpg

chassis pictures from hobbies & interests photos on webshots

Why involve trucks, you draw parallel to G-Wagen & TLC, why don't they use the Tubular Chassis.

3) Would love to see some pics or Videos of that extended time in Rubicon, since we just drive about in Sewage Creeks, and not worth the time of someone as esteemed as you.

Since you are a seasoned off-roader, unlike the online Gurkha & Force & MB experts.

Please make an elaborate comment on this pic

http://www.expeditionportal.com/foru...6&postcount=22

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by ex670c : 19th March 2010 at 13:20.
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Old 19th March 2010, 13:15   #47
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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
Speculations again........of course whadya expect from people whose concept of off roads is some small small sewage creeks and some anthills.
@Gurkha,..I am assuming from your rather articulate mails that you are both well read and a well travelled gentleman.

You passion for the Gurkha is also admirable.
But what is not going down well here is that you are not just being passionate but getting fanatical

This is actually doing more bad to the reputation of the mighty gurkha than good.

Sit back, relax and enjoy the discussions,..and most certainly be part of it. But refrain from making direct taunting remarks about fellow bhpians and vehicle owned by others.

This is getting down right dirty, and personal.

Last edited by khan_sultan : 19th March 2010 at 13:59. Reason: fixed quotes
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Old 19th March 2010, 13:18   #48
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Gurkha/Arka,

Can you both kindly drop the sarcasm in every post. It is possible to have a heated passionate discussion without resorting to mutual mockery, sarcasm or insults. Lot of people on Team-BHP do that on a daily basis.

- The Support Team
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Old 19th March 2010, 13:38   #49
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Originally Posted by Torque-ative View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
Speculations again........of course whadya expect from people whose concept of off roads is some small small sewage creeks and some anthills.
@Gurkha,..I am assuming from your rather articulate mails that you are both well read and a well travelled gentleman.

You passion for the Gurkha is also admirable.
But what is not going down well here is that you are not just being passionate but getting fanatical.

This is actually doing more bad to the reputation of the mighty gurkha than good.

Sit back, relax and enjoy the discussions,..and most certainly be part of it. But refrain from making direct taunting remarks about fellow bhpians and vehicle owned by others.

This is getting down right dirty, and personal.
Boss, that is the e-off-roading with Diff-Locks Engaged, Both the wheels are flinging mud and the vehicle..oops discussion is moving forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
Gurkha's front diff is rated at 1800kg and rear at 2750kg, both are derived from commercial load bearing vehicles. Don't go linking silly dimensional arguments on those links. Mercedes-Benz TN - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia MB407d have GVW of 4600kg
Hi Guys,

Differential Strength for the same Diff (i.e Same Crown & Pinion) depends on

I) Differential Strength
1) Dia of Crown Gear : Dia of Pinion Gear
2) Type of carrier Open (2 pinion) Closed (4 pinion)
3) Carrier & Pinion Bearings

II) Axle Strength
1) Length or Housing/Arms
2) Length of Axles
3) Diameter of Axles
4) Strength of UJ/CV Joints

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1778776-post1118.html

"The Silly Dimensional Arguments" are the Primary Design Criteria.

Metallurgy to compensate, for lack of Dimensional Strength is Secondary.

The Force Motors Brochure Rates the Gurkha Axles at

Front 1150Kgs
Rear 1660Kgs FFRA

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1229032-post837.html

Dana 44 Specs for a M&M NGCSMM550XD
Front 1400Kgs
Rear 1800/2000Kgs FFRA (approx)

Though the MB407d Axles are Rated Front Solid Axle 1800Kgs and Rear at 2750kgs for a wider track Truck.

The Front has been narrowed for the Gurkha and It has 2 IFS Arms i.e 2 Universal Joints and 2 CV Joints.
The narrowing, and IFS reduce the strength to 1150Kgs

The Rear has also been narrowed so the Axle Length and the Tube Length have been reduced, i.e the Diff-Rating has reduced to 1660Kgs, FFRA

What is that a FFRA is Rated at 1660kgs

Where as the new Dana-Spicer SFRA is rated at 1600kgs.

M&M has taken this up one notch by making it FFRA.

M&M have 2 different Hubs one is for the 8 Bolt Boleros 1800kgs Approx.
one for the 12 Bolt Maxx Series 2000kgs Approx.

Infact the design of the Force Motor parts are 1981 Vintage and IF the new CRDi Gurkha comes out, I would expect Force to get beefier axles.

Regards,

Arka

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtreme power View Post
widetrack gypsy with articulation to make a jeep feel jealous
mind you though , im a jeeper
Hi Allan,

Does this Gypsy sport Mahindra FC van 58" Track Axles in a SPOA setup?

How does the SPOA+ Wider Track Gypsy compare to a MM550 with similar track & SPOA in terms of Articulation.

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by Technocrat : 19th March 2010 at 15:15. Reason: Please use "Multi Quote" option for quoting Multiple posts, instead of creating another back-to-back post. Thanks
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Old 19th March 2010, 13:47   #50
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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
Speculations again........of course whadya expect from people whose concept of off roads is some small small sewage creeks and some anthills.
Gurkha SAAAR - I want to enroll in your offroad course that you frequent. Do you take students and teach them too?

And BTW, I dont have the money to buy a new vehicle?

Last edited by Technocrat : 19th March 2010 at 15:17.
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Old 19th March 2010, 14:57   #51
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Nice discussion and knowledge sharing going on here, it would be nice if we could adhere to a bit of professionalism too.

Spike

P.S. No offences meant please
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Old 19th March 2010, 15:14   #52
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Nice discussion and knowledge sharing going on here, it would be nice if we could adhere to a bit of professionalism too.

Spike

P.S. No offence meant please
Hi Spike,

None taken, now give us a bit of your professional expertise on the

2 Different FFRA Hubs used in the M&M vehicles and a bit more on the OKBJ and axle rating/strength.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 19th March 2010, 16:45   #53
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The Unimog uses tubular cross members, the original Unimog was constructed on single tube chassis. Check the history.

As for Force motor's numbers on their brochure, they have misquoted many a times, if their accuracy was to be believed, in certain brochures, the DI engine is rated at 80bhp whereas in some places they quote 75bhp. Force motors personnel, most of them don't have the foggiest idea. If you wish to find the true specs of the Gurkha, then the German magazine is the one to refer to. Since the rear is a 407d unit rated at 4600kg GVW and the front is a Hanomag derived diff, I stand by my numbers over Force numbers. After all, its not Force who designed these components, its Mercedes unless you are insinuating that its Dana and Mahindra

As for the picture, the area where the event is held is Rajasthan-Haryana border, the temperature that day was close to 50c, the driver, my brother developed nose bleed and the vehicle in question is my Gurkha which was driven by you and my brother at my insistence. The picture was put in the expedition portal forum in a particular context.

So by posting FUD and misquoting wrong figures, you try and bring down a vehicle which at the hands of Rhandle, myself and Dr. Mohan and others is running circles around your scrap bin assemblies. Isn't that an irony, even with all them so called mods, you can't bring em up to the Gurkha standard.

Funny fact is that you quote Gurkha figures and assess it as if you have owned one and the irony is that you will never ever have the chance to do either, that is own or have one for extended period of time. When and if you do get that chance, maybe then you can give your perspective here, for now, unlike you, I have had the chance to own, drive, sell, junk the commonly available platform form Mahindra so I have a fair amount of idea on both.
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Old 19th March 2010, 17:21   #54
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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
The Unimog uses tubular cross members, the original Unimog was constructed on single tube chassis. Check the history.

As for Force motor's numbers on their brochure, they have misquoted many a times, if their accuracy was to be believed, in certain brochures, the DI engine is rated at 80bhp whereas in some places they quote 75bhp. Force motors personnel, most of them don't have the foggiest idea. If you wish to find the true specs of the Gurkha, then the German magazine is the one to refer to. Since the rear is a 407d unit rated at 4600kg GVW and the front is a Hanomag derived diff, I stand by my numbers over Force numbers. After all, its not Force who designed these components, its Mercedes unless you are insinuating that its Dana and Mahindra

As for the picture, the area where the event is held is Rajasthan-Haryana border, the temperature that day was close to 50c, the driver, my brother developed nose bleed and the vehicle in question is my Gurkha which was driven by you and my brother at my insistence. The picture was put in the expedition portal forum in a particular context.

So by posting FUD and misquoting wrong figures, you try and bring down a vehicle which at the hands of Rhandle, myself and Dr. Mohan and others is running circles around your scrap bin assemblies. Isn't that an irony, even with all them so called mods, you can't bring em up to the Gurkha standard.

Funny fact is that you quote Gurkha figures and assess it as if you have owned one and the irony is that you will never ever have the chance to do either, that is own or have one for extended period of time. When and if you do get that chance, maybe then you can give your perspective here, for now, unlike you, I have had the chance to own, drive, sell, junk the commonly available platform form Mahindra so I have a fair amount of idea on both.
Hi Doc,

1) Any particular reason why MB started using Box-Section and C-Section Chassis on the subsequent unimogs?

2)I don't own a Gurkha, you are right. But I only misquoted the engine weight as 250/260Kgs where as it is 210Kgs

But in your case you want to exaggerate on the point that the Axles are stronger than the company quoted rating, almost double.

How can Force makes such a mistake in their German Brochure.

Is the Track of the 407d and Gurkha/Gama vehicles same?

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1229032-post837.html

Please elaborate scientifically/technically for better understanding.

3) One figure I'm pretty sure is the Sales Figure for Gurkhas, speaks volumes about its ability, chassis, design and application.

Force has been selling the Trax since 1986, if it was really running circles around the M&M JEEPs, surely they would have sold.

I guess the earliest ones could even beat the worst of M&M's Lot.

M&M Sells 8000-1000 units per month, I guess 1 percent are 4WD i.e 80-100Vehicles are 4WDs.

Force Sell 450 vehicles a month, 300 of them are Travellers .

Worldwide how many Gurkha's have been Sold?

The Indian Army cannot afford it what about foreign Armies, everyone just tries out the test vehicles, if the Gurkha was so hot, the internet would be abuzz, with stories of its legendary performance and reliability.

But that is not the case, its only a few, who would like to believe and have others believe so, even to the point of driving their case with personal taunts, name calling and so on.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 19th March 2010, 17:29   #55
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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
So by posting FUD and misquoting wrong figures, you try and bring down a vehicle which at the hands of Rhandle, myself and Dr. Mohan and others is running circles around your scrap bin assemblies. Isn't that an irony, even with all them so called mods, you can't bring em up to the Gurkha standard.

Funny fact is that you quote Gurkha figures and assess it as if you have owned one and the irony is that you will never ever have the chance to do either, that is own or have one for extended period of time. When and if you do get that chance, maybe then you can give your perspective here, for now, unlike you, I have had the chance to own, drive, sell, junk the commonly available platform form Mahindra so I have a fair amount of idea on both.

Funny thing Professor is that you claim to have done so much in the GURKHA. I doubt anyone here said GURKHA is BAD. But you keep harping on jeeps made from junkyard etc etc.

YES - It is true that we MAKE jeeps from scrapyard and MAKE them a GURKHA beater time and time again in the Indian Offroad Scene.

Now, I am going to start searching for a GURKHA too

BTW, how come the sales figures of the infamous GURKHA never matches that of the Mahindras? Anything wrong there?

And please define GURKHA standard clearly sir!
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Old 19th March 2010, 18:02   #56
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Hi Spike,

None taken, now give us a bit of your professional expertise on the

2 Different FFRA Hubs used in the M&M vehicles and a bit more on the OKBJ and axle rating/strength.

Regards,

Arka
Hey Spike, you still editing out the post for punctuation or what? Where's the info man?
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Old 19th March 2010, 18:08   #57
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Yup arka my wide track gypsy is runnng fc van 58" axles
but with my current shackle and leaf spring setup , she articualtes more then my spoa 550(this after testing both on my articualtion ramp)
i stated my gypsy cause people were not sure whether there exsisted a wide track one in india, well there does and it has parts borrowed from a jeep.
that said and done, youd ask me why i went for this setup
well i loved the weight of the gypsy and the ariculation of the jeep
i have both in this project coupled with the power of a 1.8 isuzu.

Coming to the gurkha, its weight is a definite major drawback,
have seen this car not manage a few inclines cause of its weight where jeeps and gypsys have managed.


Again im by heart more inclined to a jeep, ever since i built arjuns vehicle,
cause it has superb power to weight ratio, fab articualtion, comforts like power steering and air conditioning and not to forget looks to die for
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Old 25th March 2010, 13:23   #58
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Axle Debate

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...le-debate.html (The Axle debate)

Mods please merge the Above with the current thread.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 27th March 2010, 03:35   #59
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Ahh so it will be an 'axle' thread?

It was a Gypsy- Jeep story.

I happened to see a modded Samurai( 30+ tyres), keeping up with one of the best modded nissan patrols in a dune climb.
The thing simply floated on loose sand, where others struggled.

I am biased to gypsies
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Old 8th April 2010, 16:17   #60
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post

1) Option of Diff-ratio (4.27 to 5.89:1)
Should it not 3.54 to 5.89 : 1 ratio. I did use 3.54 (46/13) in my Jeep for a couple of months. I have even heard about 3.07 (43/14).
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