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Old 22nd March 2010, 09:22   #1
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Angry Off-Roading, Trails and Vehicular Specificity

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Originally Posted by rhandle View Post
Nothing happened bro! Only thing happened is we did have lots of fun!

Dr. Mohan, why Dont you attend The Pallar Challenge. It's near to your place. It seems this year I might be overseas (dam business!) or would have accompanied you.
I have heard a lot of "The Palar Challenge" .
There is a lot of planning and hardwork to organise this challange.
I can understand ,because once I had arranged a smalll OTR at Sawarsai for just 10 cars and and yet I had to to go 4 times prior ,talk to the authorities, Sarpanch,forest ,locals ,have a scout etc but it was worth it.
Hats off to the organisers who manage such a big event like TPC.

Having talked to many people who have attended it either as a participant or as observers and having spent a considerable time in watching the videos I have been given an impression that it is a trail specially thought about for Jeeps.
One observer even went to the extent to say that the TPC is OF the Jeeps FOR the Jeeps and BY the Jeeps(and similiar vehicles).

I have never seen it so I dont know how much to believe in them,because people talk crap.( I hope I am not undermining the TPC ,I am just passing on the negative feeedback for a critical appraisal)

However this much is very clear( from my gathered experience) that trails can be made in such a way that it could favour a particular vehicle.
For instance I can think of a trail where only the Gurkha( I am talking about Indian Vehicles not the likes of LR, LC,Nissans,H1 etc.)can make it to the end.

That trails can be made Vehicle Specific is an hypothesis.
As I belong to the scientific community ,I say hypothesis, because I have not proved it.
Although if "Gut Feeling" is to be relied upon then I am sure I can prove my point.

Any Jeep Owner(s) who could participate in a "Joint Scientific Fact Finding Study" where we can research on a Topic " Off-Roading, Trails and Vehicular Specificity". ??

I searched the TBHP database ,but couldn't find any relevant topics.
The results will be a very rich addition to the TBHP database

Already I have a study trail ready, which could be negotiated only by Gurkha, I would request some Jeep owners to take part in the study.We can request the moderators to be present at the spot so that an impartial assessment could be done,data collected,authenticated and recorded for posterity.

I think this is one way we could enrich Off-roading and contribute to the existing knowledge on 4WD techniques and trails.

Last edited by mohan : 22nd March 2010 at 09:29.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 10:35   #2
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Default Vehicle specific trails

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I have heard a lot of "The Palar Challenge" .
There is a lot of planning and hardwork to organise this challange.
I can understand ,because once I had arranged a smalll OTR at Sawarsai for just 10 cars and and yet I had to to go 4 times prior ,talk to the authorities, Sarpanch,forest ,locals ,have a scout etc but it was worth it. Hats off to the organisers who manage such a big event like TPC.
Trust me lot of hard work goes into it. Facilities is taken care by one senior gentleman called Maj roy and the actual TPC route planning is done by Arka. He is so bad that even though we do countless recces with him the actual route is never known to the participants! Special mention to the volunteers (all jeepers) who stood under hot sun to mark the obstacles . I would say it is easier driving than to stand under hot sun and wait for the participant to come and do obstacle

Quote:
.
One observer even went to the extent to say that the TPC is OF the Jeeps FOR the Jeeps and BY the Jeeps(and similiar vehicles). I have never seen it so I dont know how much to believe in them,because people talk crap.
You said it right , what they talk is crap. In fact i would go ahead and say that terrain is the toughest for jeeps and easiest for powerful light 4x4's! Its a mix. Technical obstacles jeeps have advantage and pure run on sand and dune charging Gypsy's had advantage. This event is suitable for large 4x4's as well!

Quote:
However this much is very clear( from my gathered experience) that trails can be made in such a way that it could favour a particular vehicle.
For instance I can think of a trail where only the Gurkha( I am talking about Indian Vehicles not the likes of LR, LC,Nissans,H1 etc.)can make it to the end.
Please look out for trail would be interesting to see how other 4x4's would perform there.



Quote:
Any Jeep Owner(s) who could participate in a "Joint Scientific Fact Finding Study" where we can research on a Topic " Off-Roading, Trails and Vehicular Specificity". ??
Would be interesting! However i can think of this according to the size of the vehicle and not according to the type of vehicle. Narrow jungle trails with sharp turns 3b will have advantage due to its width and length. Large wheelbases will have problem clearing humps.


Quote:
Already I have a study trail ready, which could be negotiated only by Gurkha, I would request some Jeep owners to take part in the study.We can request the moderators to be present at the spot so that an impartial assessment could be done,data collected,authenticated and recorded for posterity.
Would be damn interesting!
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Old 22nd March 2010, 10:44   #3
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OTRs in India take place in quarries, forests, abandoned or non existent trails etc., giving a solid advantage to a light weight short wheelbase vehicle.
However, if real offroad trail driving(offroading to get somewhere, rather than go and come back quarry thing), got popular, jeeps with their lower speed and poor driver comfort will not do well as opposed to softroaders or vehicles like Gurkha.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 10:47   #4
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Dr. Mohan better stop Gurkha worshiping. We have seen this god does not move! smell something sinister

The best way to avoid confrontation is "indifference". If some people have got the attitude that theirs is bigger, let them have it, why you want to prove anything by making test trails.

The fact remains any Jugad (CUSTOMIZATION) vehicle any day would day beat any stock vehicle, whether it's on road vehicle like customised EVO or Good Jugad Jeep on off-road. The best you can do is just enjoy your vehicle, save your time and breath on other beautiful things around you rather than Jeep or Gurkha. There is simply no competition.

Your "
Quote:
Already I have a study trail ready, which could be negotiated only by Gurkha
is a false statement, since it has not been seen by Jeep yet. Lets assume Your trail got deep water or diagonal ditches, to negate the one slight plus points of Snorkel, (Diff. lock has not been taken as plus point because I read somewhere that without diff. locks Gurkha wont move - so it becomes necessity instead of plus), that can be easily fitted in vehicle and this can be negated.

In fact I had been thinking, wht would happen if we put Dana axles, 4x4 transfer case and Best jeep engine on Maruti OMNI, along with 35" tires. Won't it look like Unimog and have more GC, better approach and departure angle, and light weight enough to make other vehicles especially Gurkha look like a Fool's investment!!

Also one more point in favor of Jeeps, they do not depreciate in value!! Trust me go and check out prices, and also get your Gurkha evaluated, you would know

Amen ... and I hope peace prevails!
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Old 22nd March 2010, 11:10   #5
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Dr. Mohan better stop Gurkha worshiping.
He is not!! What he tried to do is a logical comparison. Logical comparisons are always welcome!

Quote:
If some people have got the attitude that theirs is bigger, let them have it, why you want to prove anything by making test trails.
Read the quote from my previous post # 323- " May i ask you why are you so dependent on Rhandle and Dr.Mohan who are newbies to off road? ...........They aren't talking crap like you. They are simply enjoying their machine and they don't have to say mine is bigger than yours and even if they do i don't mind! I respect them at least they have taken their vehicle off road unlike you"

I support you guys as you have done some thing off road rather than making tall claims. Constructive criticism always welcome rather than calling anything the beginning and the end for off-roading solution bet it jeep or Gurkha or a Gyspy
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The best you can do is just enjoy your vehicle, save your time and breath on other beautiful things around you rather than Jeep or Gurkha. There is simply no competition
True!

Quote:
Your " is a false statement, since it has not been seen by Jeep yet. Lets assume Your trail got deep water or diagonal ditches, to negate the one slight plus points of Snorkel, (Diff. lock has not been taken as plus point because I read somewhere that without diff. locks Gurkha wont move - so it becomes necessity instead of plus), that can be easily fitted in vehicle and this can be negated. In fact I had been thinking, wht would happen if we put Dana axles, 4x4 transfer case and Best jeep engine on Maruti OMNI, along with 35" tires. Won't it look like Unimog and have more GC, better approach and departure angle, and light weight enough to make other vehicles especially Gurkha look like a Fool's investment!! Also one more point in favor of Jeeps, they do not depreciate in value!! Trust me go and check out prices, and also get your Gurkha evaluated, you would know
Now please don't take the place of erstwhile Gurkha (Member) in being sarcastic?

We are not Gurkha bashers. We know what it can do and what it cannot. we have stated it count less times. We have appreciated it on so many counts like best balance between on and off road comfort. We certainly didn't like the idea that Gurkha is the absolute king off road and jeeps are crap!! That made us come in defense with some hard hitting facts. I repeat Gurkha deserves more sales for what it is, but is let down primarily by the company selling it.

As you said let peace prevail and off road together rather than showing who's got the bigger one!

p.s- On a second thought i liked your idea on omini about mini Unimog though i dont quite agree on the aggregates. It must have either jap engineering or the German!

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 22nd March 2010 at 11:25.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 11:15   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post

Now please don't take the place of erstwhile Gurkha (Member) in being sarcastic?

As you said let peace prevail


About Maruti Omni, I am serious, no sarcasm over there. Have already spoken to few people about it, but all are saying centre of gravity would be an issue. But most or early unimogs and puch had almost a similar design. I already had had a serious discussion on this with Ankit almost 4-5 months back. I do not know if someone with knowledge can pik this up as a project
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Old 22nd March 2010, 12:01   #7
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Ok, so its a heavy offroader. All heavy offroaders will dig down more in slush and sand, if the wheel width is same as that of lighter vehicle.
But to have creature comforts etc., and also confirm to basic safety requirements, a vehicle will indeed become heavy.
I guess with wider tires, the Gurkha will do better as its not the weight, but the weight per square inch that will decide the degree to which it will sink.
Also tires will play a role.
For example MT tired vehicle will do better in slush, and Sand grip will do better in sand. An AT tire will do nice overall, but will struggle in sand and slush.
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Old 23rd March 2010, 12:13   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohan View Post
However this much is very clear( from my gathered experience) that trails can be made in such a way that it could favour a particular vehicle.
For instance I can think of a trail where only the Gurkha( I am talking about Indian Vehicles not the likes of LR, LC,Nissans,H1 etc.)can make it to the end.

That trails can be made Vehicle Specific is an hypothesis.
As I belong to the scientific community ,I say hypothesis, because I have not proved it.
Although if "Gut Feeling" is to be relied upon then I am sure I can prove my point.

Any Jeep Owner(s) who could participate in a "Joint Scientific Fact Finding Study" where we can research on a Topic " Off-Roading, Trails and Vehicular Specificity". ??

I searched the TBHP database ,but couldn't find any relevant topics.
The results will be a very rich addition to the TBHP database

Already I have a study trail ready, which could be negotiated only by Gurkha, I would request some Jeep owners to take part in the study.We can request the moderators to be present at the spot so that an impartial assessment could be done,data collected,authenticated and recorded for posterity.

I think this is one way we could enrich Off-roading and contribute to the existing knowledge on 4WD techniques and trails.
Hi Doc. Mohan,

Can we list out the following criteria, make additions and discuss on:-

i) Vehicle
a) Wheel Base
b) Tyres
c) Air-Intake System
d) IFS/Solid Axle
e) LSD/Locker/Diff-Locks
f) Winches
g) Diff-Ratio
h) SFRA/FFRA
i) Front/Rear Track

ii) Trail/Obstacles
a) V-Pits 45/60 Degree
b) Climbs 10/20/30 ft
c) ADR Pits
d) Axle Articulation
e) Step Climbs
f) Water Fording (Entry and Climb Out)
g) Roll-Over Ditches
h) Soft Surface Run (Mud/Sand)

I would certainly want you to go with your "gut feeling" and prove your point.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 23rd March 2010, 14:36   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Can we list out the following criteria, make additions and discuss on:-

ii) Trail/Obstacles
a) V-Pits 45/60 Degree
b) Climbs 10/20/30 ft
c) ADR Pits
d) Axle Articulation
e) Step Climbs
f) Water Fording (Entry and Climb Out)
g) Roll-Over Ditches
h) Soft Surface Run (Mud/Sand)
Firstly, I DO NOT OWN a jeep now. So guys please dont pounce on me


And I dont know much about vehicles. But I have done a,b,c,d,e,f and h. The vehicles I've used are

1. CJ3B with a Peugeot 2.1 running 4.27
2. MM540 with a Peugeot 2.1 running 4.xx
3. MG413W running on Gas [LPG] and Hardtop
4. MG413W running on Petrol with HT removed.

For Point a:
My choice of vehicle will be #1 mentioned above:

For Point b: - Vehicle choice #4.

For Point C: - Vehicle choice #2

For Point D: - Vehicle choice #2

For point E: - Vehicle choice #2 or #4.

For Point F: - Vehicle Choice #2

For Point G: - I'm sorry dont know what a rollover ditch is:

For point H: - Vehicle Choice #3 or #4.


Cheers
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Old 23rd March 2010, 15:08   #10
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Default Experience vs Gut Feeling

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Originally Posted by headers View Post
For Point G: - I'm sorry dont know what a rollover ditch is:
Hi Vikram,

It does not matter, you are the most experienced at it so it is Vehicle Choice #4

Regards,

Arka
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Old 23rd March 2010, 15:57   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Doc. Mohan,

Can we list out the following criteria, make additions and discuss on:-
I would certainly want you to go with your "gut feeling" and prove your point.

Regards,

Arka
At the outset I would thank Arka, Vinod ,4x4 addict and a couple of others to encourage and motivate me to conduct a study wherein the hypothesized concept of "trail exclusivity" could be put to test.

As this is not a debate competition ,eloquence,linguistic skills,vociferation or hearsay populistic opinionation has no role.

I thank the JEEP community to lend its active support and participation for this experiment.

Very soon I will be putting up the Experiment Protocol in details.
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Old 24th March 2010, 02:44   #12
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[The fact remains any Jugad (CUSTOMIZATION) vehicle any day would day beat any stock vehicle, whether it's on road vehicle like customised EVO or Good Jugad Jeep on off-road. The best you can do is just enjoy your vehicle, save your time and breath on other beautiful things around you rather than Jeep or Gurkha. There is simply no competition]


Well said "rhandle" , a good offroader is not bought it's built.

Last edited by Motocoorg : 24th March 2010 at 02:47.
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Old 2nd July 2010, 20:06   #13
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Question Any updates ?

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...Very soon I will be putting up the Experiment Protocol in details.
Hi, mohan, I would like to know if you have any updates on this topic? I am guessing the AKC/EXAMM would have helped you in further analysis of this topic of vehicle-specific trails. Please do let us know you thoughts.

Thanks.
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Old 3rd July 2010, 21:51   #14
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Hi Dr.Mohan, I would like to join , so please explain/elaborate more on this .
Yours Sudarshan.
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