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Old 22nd May 2010, 12:51   #16
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Very interesting and learning thread! Iam jotting down the points.
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Old 22nd May 2010, 15:48   #17
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Enrolling myself as a keen student of this 4X4 Academy.

Let the gyan disseminate !

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Old 22nd May 2010, 15:50   #18
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Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
However, the trail ratings will keep changing during various seasons. The Rajmachi climb would be challenging in the monsoon and comes down to less than moderate in the dry season.
Very true. So a trail can be rated with seasonal qualification

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Even the bangalore trail would automatically get upgraded one level in the monsoons.
Again very true.


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If a person completes a trail, but does a couple of obstacles in 10 tries and needs to be pulled out of one; then is it qualified as completed?
I feel we should stay clear of judging the individual. What is important is that a person is going through a learning curve as he goes through the trail. For him making it in ten tries is a big achievement. And if he takes umpteen tries to complete a trail so be it. At the end he would have a greater sense of achievement wouldn't he? So technically yes he has completed the trail, albeit in many attempts, but still completed. Give him the completion certificate so he can attempt the next trail. Mind you if one's competence levels are not up to the mark you won't complete the trail.

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The above process is followed to make the OTR bit of TPC Tougher, than the previous years.
Does the TPC thread highlight these new tougher challenges?

BTW in your experience how many of the OTR's around India do you notice getting progressively tougher each year ?

The other day you mentioned a lot of new faces are turning up and oldies disappearing. Maybe not everyone is implementing this element of multiple trail options with varying degree of toughness

Ideally with each year your TPC should have level 1,2,3,4,5 happening simultaneously. Imagine a lot of newbies when they witness the tougher trails will be motivated to come back for more. Its a cycle which keeps the circus going and growing !!

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Old 22nd May 2010, 17:32   #19
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Does the TPC thread highlight these new tougher challenges?

BTW in your experience how many of the OTR's around India do you notice getting progressively tougher each year ?

The other day you mentioned a lot of new faces are turning up and oldies disappearing. Maybe not everyone is implementing this element of multiple trail options with varying degree of toughness

Ideally with each year your TPC should have level 1,2,3,4,5 happening simultaneously. Imagine a lot of newbies when they witness the tougher trails will be motivated to come back for more. Its a cycle which keeps the circus going and growing !!
Hi DKG,

Every OTR is Better than the previous one, and tougher because there are a lot of newbies coming in.

Most OTRs are a first few runs on a new pitch/section and move on to the next section, before it becomes boring. Hence the sections are not absolutely known.

In TPC we a variety of Obstacles, but we try to make them more demanding compared to the previous years. Also the fatigue levels compound the difficulty of the obstacles.

And Since its a Team Based Competition, the newbies have to grasp a lot of stuff.

Most of the guys who keep coming back, is because of the competition and no matter how hard they prepare, they get bested by the Terrain and Obstacles, it becomes a continuous cycle of Improvement.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 22nd May 2010, 23:04   #20
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Very very interesting thread.

Enrolling self into the academy.

What we could do is also rate OTRs events on the forum based on certain preset and predetermined parameters.

This will help members judge how well they did and how much then need to improve / prepare self and machine.
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Old 23rd May 2010, 01:05   #21
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
There is no question of rating individuals. Look at it like this. Lets say I am starting off in this leisure sport. I sart with level 1 difficulty. I complete the circuit and want to experience a tougher challenge for my next outing. Here's where we identify a trail which has say Level 2 grading. Then once people have done this, they may desire something even tougher than level 2, where again we help in identifying such a trail that would exceed the difficulty one encountered on level 1 and 2

That's my objective, to build across India a database of trails rated at different levels. So that an avid offroader can actually aspire to grow and develop in his skill levels by graduating from one trail to another.

The certification is purely of completing the trail. Once someone completes a trail and has a certification to the effect, when he goes for the next level the organisers simply use the former level certification as a sign of him being ready for one level up.

Its a simply system, no room for politics as no one gets to rate a driver. Only the trails are rated and as you complete it successfully you move to higher trail grades.
Get the picture?
Hi DKG,

You seem to be on a roll

You have made some valid points and I agree with you. This is how it should ideally.

Having said that, let me recount what happens sometimes on our Palar OTR's.

When we go as a group, we will invariably have some newbies. Newbies will include the people who listen and people who don't. Beyond a certain point you can't control everyone, after all they are coming in their own vehicles. You can tell them not do certain things but they are not forced to listen to you.You can read the post I have linked for more details http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ex...ml#post1878894 (TPC10 - India's Toughest 4x4 Off-Road Competition)

Now applying that experience to the proposed idea, how will you be able to prevent a relative newbie from taking a more tougher and potentially dangerous trail short of refusing entry to that person?

P.S: Just to clarify, we at Chennai makes sure it is drilled into the newbies if they ever try something dangerous, that their actions cannot be repeated.
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Old 24th May 2010, 10:14   #22
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Newbies will include the people who listen and people who don't.....but they are not forced to listen to you.

how will you be able to prevent a relative newbie from taking a more tougher and potentially dangerous trail short of refusing entry to that person?
Lets say we start issuing a certificate of completion. TPC Level 1 for beginners has a certain degree of offroad challenges. A person goes through and is ready for the second level of greater challenges.

You also have someone who turns up at Level 2 of TPC and wants to participate without having done level 1.

Now basically the reputation of the event is at risk of being tarnished if a relative "newbie" attempts something beyond his experience and skill level and ends up harming himself. The whole event risks being shut down permanently.

So in my opinion it is imperative the organisers introduce some way of ensuring the participants have reasonable level of exposure before attempting tougher sectors.

I feel you as organiser have every right to refuse entry if someone is not meeting your criteria.

You must take a tough stand. The guy can always come back some other weekend and attempt sectors he wants to do. Why come and become a nuisance and huge risk when TPC is being held?

Further the general TPC 1 could be advertised to general public. As TPC progresses you have a database of people who have completed level 1 and then its only against invites for level 2 and so on. That way the venue, date and time is not public and no chances of overenthusiastic guys gatecrashing making your life miserable.

So many times when you start attempting tougher and tougher stuff its scary. I remember I used to be **** scared of attempting some dunes. I never had the gall to try the really big ones for fear of a nasty rollover. Besides my car was brand new and I simply didn't have the guts to take risks with it. I've had friends who rolled Cherokees.

I know my limitations and basically I am not very comfortable doing stuff at heights where error would cause a nasty rollover that can prove fatal. Anything else I would be game for. But stuff involving heights and risks of rollovers...I don't see myself attempting those ! For the same reason I don't ever try to do wheelies or stopies on my superbike !

Last edited by DKG : 24th May 2010 at 10:22.
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Old 24th May 2010, 11:06   #23
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Deepak,

Last OTR, i put across the rating system to the fellas. I will post their reactions soon.

Fiery enzyme, has a point when it comes to newbies or infact even old hands going out of marked trails and attempting something stupid. You can't stop them. Even if they are not invited and they turn up at the OTR site, what can you do?
Most of the OTRs are held on public land. If i post on team-bhp that we are doing a level 3 otr this weekend, everyone will know. If level 1 & 2 rated guys turn up at the venue, what will you tell them? They will say, you go ahead, we will do it on our own. And if they do land up getting stuck, they know out of goodwill you will recover them. Also, if some untoward incident does happen, the blame will go on the seniors both on the forum and also off the forum (wrt to local authorities).

I have been racking my head trying to figure it out about how stop this, but can't come up with a solution. Only thing i figure is to that on the forum, give only the general area where we are headed and disclose the final location. Everyone meets at a common point which is sent out late via sms and then they head out in a convoy. Ofcourse, unwanted guys can still find out through friends and follow, but chances reduce.
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Old 24th May 2010, 11:15   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
Everyone meets at a common point which is sent out late via sms and then they head out in a convoy
I think if you guys are attempting anything beyond level 1 it should necessarily be advertised through personal contact as you suggest.

The ramifications are very serious Tejas. The worst part is when it becomes a ego thing and a few guys try attempting crazy stuff just to show they are better.

I remember at one of the Jeep Thrills event after the course they took all the Jeepers to a pond which required the vehicles to come down a steep slope. Once everyone got down into the pool and had their fun crossing it some brilliant folks decided to try and go back up the slope. The slope had a nasty six to eight inch drop at the top which was almost vertical. While going down you could gently drop the wheels over, but imagine hitting that bump on your way up. It can literally cause the front end to flip back over you !

A few attempts made it clear that any more enthusiasm in trying to climb it will cause the Jeeps to reverse flip. Fortunately the organisers stepped in in time and called it off. But sometimes with a crowd watching people seem to do some really silly things.

Last edited by DKG : 24th May 2010 at 11:22.
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Old 25th May 2010, 01:38   #25
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Deepak,


I have been racking my head trying to figure it out about how stop this, but can't come up with a solution. Only thing i figure is to that on the forum, give only the general area where we are headed and disclose the final location. Everyone meets at a common point which is sent out late via sms and then they head out in a convoy. Ofcourse, unwanted guys can still find out through friends and follow, but chances reduce.
That is a practical solution, however the ones who are not invited will not like it. Then you will have grumblings about politics and groupism and in the long run it will affect the morale of the sport.

But I guess this is a big potential problem we need to come up with a solution that will work.

P.S : There is always the Arka way. Just shout them down and scare them
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Old 25th May 2010, 08:34   #26
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Hi guys,


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Lets say we start issuing a certificate of completion. TPC Level 1 for beginners has a certain degree of offroad challenges. A person goes through and is ready for the second level of greater challenges.
This can only be done if the group is the same. Also, in the same group [of say 5 vehicles], suppose 2 of them complete the course and the 3 do NOT, then how do you take it forward?

As it is, offroad is a divided community spread over the country and if we were to have levels, it may lead to further scatter IMO.


Quote:
You also have someone who turns up at Level 2 of TPC and wants to participate without having done level 1.

Now basically the reputation of the event is at risk of being tarnished if a relative "newbie" attempts something beyond his experience and skill level and ends up harming himself. The whole event risks being shut down permanently.
This is absolutely true.

Quote:
So in my opinion it is imperative the organisers introduce some way of ensuring the participants have reasonable level of exposure before attempting tougher sectors.

I feel you as organiser have every right to refuse entry if someone is not meeting your criteria.

You must take a tough stand. The guy can always come back some other weekend and attempt sectors he wants to do. Why come and become a nuisance and huge risk when TPC is being held?

Further the general TPC 1 could be advertised to general public. As TPC progresses you have a database of people who have completed level 1 and then its only against invites for level 2 and so on. That way the venue, date and time is not public and no chances of overenthusiastic guys gatecrashing making your life miserable.
I thought this was mentioned in not so many words by the organisers of TPC time and time again. Infact, there were some criticisms on that!


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I've had friends who rolled Cherokees.
You have friends who've rolled gypsies too

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I know my limitations and basically I am not very comfortable doing stuff at heights where error would cause a nasty rollover that can prove fatal. Anything else I would be game for. But stuff involving heights and risks of rollovers...I don't see myself attempting those ! For the same reason I don't ever try to do wheelies or stopies on my superbike !
Deepak, you are not enjoying your superbike man, come on, give it to me

OK, see the associated issues that crop up when we come to rating a trail / driver are IMO:

1. The feeling of cohesiveness disappears and it becomes more individualistic.

2. The need to help a fellow jeeper will reduce

3. There are more internal frictions among the fellow jeepers [I wont tell you what mods i've done kind]

4. Individual egos are thrashed / raised. This is unnecessary.

Our friend LKCRUISERS [Sean Hameed] of Srilanka organises the Taprobana Challenge in SL and some of the guys who attended the event had things to share about why we work better.

Our personal experiences in having a newbie at Palar for his first OTR has always proved that he went home sad, wanting to sell his jeep. In some cases, the jeeps have been sold too, and he has moved on to be a "non off roader"

At the end of the day, we are in the sport to be together and not otherwise right?

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Old 25th May 2010, 20:27   #27
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You also have someone who turns up at Level 2 of TPC and wants to participate without having done level 1.

Now basically the reputation of the event is at risk of being tarnished if a relative "newbie" attempts something beyond his experience and skill level and ends up harming himself. The whole event risks being shut down permanently.

So in my opinion it is imperative the organisers introduce some way of ensuring the participants have reasonable level of exposure before attempting tougher sectors.

I feel you as organiser have every right to refuse entry if someone is not meeting your criteria.

You must take a tough stand. The guy can always come back some other weekend and attempt sectors he wants to do. Why come and become a nuisance and huge risk when TPC is being held?

Further the general TPC 1 could be advertised to general public. As TPC progresses you have a database of people who have completed level 1 and then its only against invites for level 2 and so on. That way the venue, date and time is not public and no chances of overenthusiastic guys gatecrashing making your life miserable.
Atleast for TPC, the terrain helps us in a way.

Level 1:Guys who can sucessfully getting the vehicles to the river bed.

Level 2: Guys who sucessfullly finish all the obstacles and go home without breaking down (I'm not talking about the JEEP).

Level 3: Guys who actually return for the next TPC .

On a serious note, once you participate, you will realise the truth in my words.
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Old 25th May 2010, 21:56   #28
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Atleast for TPC, the terrain helps us in a way.

Level 1:Guys who can sucessfully getting the vehicles to the river bed.

Level 2: Guys who sucessfullly finish all the obstacles and go home without breaking down (I'm not talking about the JEEP).

Level 3: Guys who actually return for the next TPC .

On a serious note, once you participate, you will realise the truth in my words.
Bala, shouldn't there be another category for spectators who come braving the hot sun and stay the whole event. These are the dreamy guys who return next season either with their own 4x4 or with others and keep coming back till their dream of owning a 4x4 is completed.

These are the guys who are the future of this sport and who will get this popularised.

Just my 2 paisa!

Last edited by MileCruncher : 25th May 2010 at 21:58.
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Old 25th May 2010, 23:56   #29
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Bala, shouldn't there be another category for spectators who come braving the hot sun and stay the whole event. These are the dreamy guys who return next season either with their own 4x4 or with others and keep coming back till their dream of owning a 4x4 is completed.

These are the guys who are the future of this sport and who will get this popularised.

Just my 2 paisa!
Absolutely. After all I come from this group
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Old 26th May 2010, 00:18   #30
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Bala, shouldn't there be another category for spectators who come braving the hot sun and stay the whole event. These are the dreamy guys who return next season either with their own 4x4 or with others and keep coming back till their dream of owning a 4x4 is completed.

These are the guys who are the future of this sport and who will get this popularised.

Just my 2 paisa!
I agree 100%.
These guys are looked down upon by some offroading groups, in my experience.
This is present in all forms of motorsports.
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