Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > 4x4 & Off-Roading > 4x4 Technical


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th July 2010, 15:37   #31
Senior - BHPian
 
ex670c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chennai
Posts: 2,454
Thanked: 1,789 Times
Default Diagonal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
Arre baba! The only reason i put this up is because BD explained in great detail the angular step by step approach. My dental instincts (similar to yanking a tooth out ) just told me to go straight through and i did without a hiccup!


But, on a more serious note: The one thing everyone has said, and i repeat is that the driver of the vehicle should choose one spotter for himself and only that guy should spot. Not every tom dick and harry.
Hi Tejas,


In an IFS setup both wheels move independently in the above obstacle it was possible for both the wheels to move up together and reduce the ground clearance.

Also the added benefit of going diagonal, is at any point three wheels are carrying the weight of the vehicle.

Had the obstacle been more pronounced most of us would have taken a diagonal route.

Regards,

Arka
ex670c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 18:44   #32
Senior - BHPian
 
V-16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: mumbai
Posts: 4,575
Thanked: 834 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Hey Jaggu...
Your approach I would believe will work only when you have your trusted band wagon beside you
That is one thing i can vouch for. I have learnt through the small group which I was a part of (thank heavens) and that helped me get more understanding about off road driving. Sometimes when you dont know a thing and what your green horn friend advices sounds good, what other option is there to take? Id listen to him if i felt it was right but faced in the same situation alone, i probably would be confused as hell.

Quote:
My approach is targeted towards building independent off roading capabilities within self by learning to use rightful fundamental techniques while considering/obeying and falling back on all the suggestions/gyan/opinions/lessons learnt
How Right but you can only build your independent capability based on watching or learning from some other source. What better way than to watch experienced guys tackle the same object that you would be tackling a few minutes later.

Quote:
Having said the above, what Off Road Driving technique is it that you are suggesting through your post, always listen to friends while keeping your ego away??! Sorry I failed to see that, sorry
I think he meant is clear in the following video.

Watch Robinson who is an old hat at Off Roading but if you listen to the voices in the video, one can see he is being directed constantly by a few of his friends.

Robinson's descent



Being an expert one can choose to brush aside any suggestions or follow some. An egoistic person may think hes learnt enough or everything but what little i know of OTR's i feel its always a team effort, hence the first lesson being, never go on an OTR alone and listen to your friends, especially if they are more or even as experienced as you.


Now see my video. I haven't said this earlier but i will narrate this episode here and experts may comment.

My Descent


The softer/faint voice is Robinson's who is seated next to me directing me all the way down and then the other voices viz; Khan, Vijjy, etc. directing me too.

The situation was as under;
After i watched three jeeps tackle the descent, i was told time and again even by Khan and Vijjy to hit 1st low and crawl down. Somehow i was not very comfortable with that idea,not having crawled down such a deep decline. It was too steep and too wet to walk down and inspect, something i would have done if the terrain would have allowed.

Robby climbed up to sit with me and guide me down this decline. I was mentally prepared to slot the CJ into 1st low and crawl down but Robby says "How good are your brakes" I replied, "Very". He said, depress the clutch foot on the brake and dont let go and then leave slowly. I was shocked. This was absolutely against what i was told all throughout ant OTR i had attended. The cardinal sin to depress the clutch and go down a dangerous looking decline. I asked "Are you sure? No 1st low and forget the clutch?" Robby replied " you heard me, no 1st low. Go down in neutral if you are comfortable but dont leave your brakes as do exactly what i say" I had seen him glide down in his Invader just a few minutes before and he was the experienced guy who was sitting with me telling me what to do. I said "Ok here goes. Clutch depressed, Jeep still in 1st low and foot firmly on the brakes". I handled the decline and i think i did well, against all norms and prior teachings with only full trust on my partner.

All was well till i asked Vijjy at the long decline which lead to the river where i got stuck "Vijjy, 1st low or clutch depressed?" Both Vijjy and Kunal were shocked at my question. Both simultaneously replied ''No No 1st low 1st low"
.
When i told them i had come down the previous slope in the unorthodox fashion Vijjy said, ''WHATTTT? WHY?? WHO TOLD YOU?" I replied "Robin" and that was enough to start a debate between Khan, Robin, Vijjy. It was then when Vijjy said "Boss Ill come with you down, dont do anything like that again. Robin is an expert and he was sitting with you."

Robin still firmly believed i should go down this slope the same way too. Now, in this situation, i had another partner, with a different approach to a similar situation and i decided to follow him. 1st low it was and i crawled down with considerable ease. I tried both ways but to be frank, 1st low is what id recommend and follow anytime. No fear, neither you nor your vehicle breaking into a sweat, just smooth traction down all the way. I didnt even have to tap the brake once.

Coming to the EXAMM long slope where Samu came down in 2nd low. I was there when he was explaining to me why i should go down 2nd low and it made perfect sense. I would have followed his advice too but i was not comfortable and confident about myself, so i chose to get down 1st low, following Ubs's advise.

I am not questioning or debating either Robin's or Sharat's advice. I know Robin's and Sharat's way works fine (i came down with Robin in that way and i saw 2nd low being engaged to tackle the EXAMM descent.) What im trying to stress is that one must choose one voice from those many voices or plan to follow only one voice for which the discussions, repercussions are discussed prior to tackling the obstacle.I may be wrong but that works fo rme rather than being confused in a sea of instructions once you start to tackle the obstacle, as Wolf rightly pointed out.

Comments experts!
V-16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 18:59   #33
Senior - BHPian
 
Red Liner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,990
Thanked: 653 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16 View Post

I am not questioning or debating either Robin's or Sharat's advice. I know Robin's and Sharat's way works fine (i came down with Robin in that way and i saw 2nd low being engaged to tackle the EXAMM descent.)
I'm LOVING it!
Red Liner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 19:03   #34
Team-BHP Support
 
Samurai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: B'lore-Manipal
Posts: 22,045
Thanked: 13,496 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
Somehow i was not very comfortable with that idea,not having crawled down such a deep decline. It was too steep and too wet to walk down and inspect, something i would have done if the terrain would have allowed.
I actually walked down this incline, in my mud terrain gum boots. Only the last few feet I had to run down and go up the other side to lose the momentum, I had no brakes. This incline had absolute grip, only with bald tyres one would slide here. After the rains it would have been a different story though.

I walked down the next long incline too, it had grip then, but might have changed after the rains started.

Yes, different techniques work for the same obstacle, spotter's job is to suggest at least one way. If the driver prefers another way and executes it well, it is perfectly fine.
Samurai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 20:59   #35
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,496
Thanked: 6,777 Times
Default

1st low or brakes both will work, but brakes put stress on pads and if they cook, you will be toast. In Robi's invader with super bouncy/pitching character and weight, even I also feel comfortable on the brakes. In spidey I prefer 1 st gear + brakes, in CJ I would prefer 1st low alone. so it depends on vehicle plus comfort factor of driver.

In the evening while I was spotting for Gogi I had terrible confusion suggesting gears, since I felt he would not be comfortable with my driving style. Atleast 2 spots I think I suggested 1st low to him where I knew 2 low would be ok. Why, since I felt he preferred to stay in control as much as possible, rather than being lil more agressive and maybe lil less margin wrt control as some of us are used to.

I have experienced the blind ABC approach fall out, this was inside the sarjapur pit, where I aciidently tripped the clutch/gear slipped. By the time my foot found brakes, I had nose dived the 15 foot drop. From then on even when I decent on gear, brakes are also skimming.

Am no expert but the assurance of having brakes to keep the crawling in control is very re-assuring for me coz am good at controlling my vehicle with hands and brakes together, rather than hands alone
Jaggu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 21:59   #36
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,856
Thanked: 15,418 Times
Default

I have a few queries on technique
First an foremost is what I faced on my recent trip.
Our track ended in a gully(inverted speadbreaker shape)
Due to front overhang, if I started going down the bumper would touch the ground.
Same in reverse due to rear overhang.
Sideways I was scared of overturning the vehicle.
So is there a technique possible for crossing gulleys when the front and rear overhang make it impossible to cross it?

Second is water crossing. For deeper stretches we sometimes have to walk to see how deep is water. Now, what are the different approaches experts recommend depending upon river bottom. For example, sand/round stones/small pebbles etc.,
Also is there a way to ascertain that the current is not too strong to take the vehicle away?

Regarding coming down very steep slopes, from personal experience, esp in such a heavy vehicle as the safari which tears down the slopes, its good in 1st low, but I sometimes press the accelerator pedal when I feel the vehicle is skidding down instead of driving down.
With a shorter gearing system, I would be using second low. For not so skiddy slopes, esp when its a steep trail driving type ghat section, I shift to 3rd gear in Low ratio, or 1st in high ratio. I chose the former because in Low ratio I have 4th and 5th upwards and 1st and 2nd downwards, lot of control speed. In 4H, I am on the lowest gear, so to slow down, I have to stop and then slot from 4H to 4L.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 8th July 2010 at 22:01.
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 22:32   #37
BHPian
 
gsferrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 842
Thanked: 131 Times
Default

Technique, in my view, is what will get me across to the other end without damaging the vehicle or the occupants.

Many thanks to all the guys who spot for the rest of us. Arka, Patrick, James, Amol and Allan - you guys rock!

What I have learnt over the course of a half-dozen OTRs or so is to take obstacles as "Head-On" as possible unless the overhangs get in the way. I don't attempt obstacles where I would have to enter a deep gully diagonally because I have seen what happens to Gypsies in this case (Specifically Imran's at the Karjat night OTR) and it isn't pretty.

Technique also has to work when you are by yourself without other vehicles/people for support. I think off-roading with the view that you are on your own is the REAL limit for man/machine. Off-roading knowing that a support crew is in place is fun but you tend not to approach the trail with a "No Second Chances" approach.

For me the pinnacle of man-machine-trail relationship will be when I can do OTRs without assistance with a high degree of safety. I have never been stuck at any OTR until now...never needed towing out of any obstacle and I hope this run continues

Clutch melting and gearbox mashing isn't for me...
gsferrari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 23:10   #38
BHPian
 
sreerajunnithan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Banagalore
Posts: 445
Thanked: 5 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
In Robi's invader with super bouncy/pitching character and weight, even I also feel comfortable on the brakes.
If you want to know whats the actual issue with Robi's Invader, read the first page of engine braking thread. His invader in on very high gear ratio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsferrari View Post
I have never been stuck at any OTR until now...never needed towing out of any obstacle and I hope this run continues
Bro, don't brag about this and never hope that it will continue like that forever. After all, getting struck is not a bad thing, unless it hurts ones ego!!!

Thanks
--Sree--

Last edited by sreerajunnithan : 8th July 2010 at 23:11.
sreerajunnithan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 23:17   #39
BHPian
 
swastikviji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 417
Thanked: 158 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
All was well till i asked Vijjy at the long decline which lead to the river where i got stuck "Vijjy, 1st low or clutch depressed?" Both Vijjy and Kunal were shocked at my question. Both simultaneously replied ''No No 1st low 1st low"
.
When i told them i had come down the previous slope in the unorthodox fashion Vijjy said, ''WHATTTT? WHY?? WHO TOLD YOU?" I replied "Robin" and that was enough to start a debate between Khan, Robin, Vijjy. It was then when Vijjy said "Boss Ill come with you down, dont do anything like that again. Robin is an expert and he was sitting with you."
Comments experts!
After Completing your second decline how you felt? is it comfortable, are using Clutch?

One More thing you Forgot, Robin is Driving a invader, It has Front Disc Brake, and Rear it has the advantage of Booster and Bigger Dia Brake Liners,

Before considering all these he has one more Advantage you know that How
he Climbed That incline, Physical fitness, he Jumps Out of Jeep before it topples.
swastikviji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 23:23   #40
Team-BHP Support
 
Samurai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: B'lore-Manipal
Posts: 22,045
Thanked: 13,496 Times
Default

I generally don't try to depend on my drum brakes, after a little water fording they become useless. People with disc brakes probably are more confident about using brakes in offroading.
Samurai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 23:36   #41
BHPian
 
sreerajunnithan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Banagalore
Posts: 445
Thanked: 5 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swastikviji View Post
Before considering all these he has one more Advantage you know that How
he Climbed That incline, Physical fitness, he Jumps Out of Jeep before it topples.
ROTFLMFAO!!!! i couldn't resist this post!!

--Sree--
sreerajunnithan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2010, 00:09   #42
BHPian
 
jack33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: kochi
Posts: 128
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

From my little experience it's about locking the wheels, either with engine/gear braking or the disc/drums, in a steep slippery situation where the vehicle takes control, rather than you. So if your speed is more and you are going out of control, it's better to apply brake slightly and if you feel that the jeep is slipping in 1 st gear you may slightly apply the throttle to correct it.It depends on a lot of variables like gear ratios/vehicle/suspension/brake systems/terrain at the given time and the perfect action requires a sharp and clear mind.
jack33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2010, 10:35   #43
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,496
Thanked: 6,777 Times
Default

Let me attempt to answer here, just my non guru version

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Due to front overhang, if I started going down the bumper would touch the ground.
Same in reverse due to rear overhang.
Sideways I was scared of overturning the vehicle.
So is there a technique possible for crossing gulleys when the front and rear overhang make it impossible to cross it?
Use a filler, stone, sand etc or boards??

I prefer scrapping rather than toppling, the LWB vehicles are a pain and with hard top, dancing can be quite scary. But then again if you do it really slow, you can explore the vehicles pitching sideway, without rolling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Second is water crossing. For deeper stretches we sometimes have to walk to see how deep is water. Now, what are the different approaches experts recommend depending upon river bottom. For example, sand/round stones/small pebbles etc.,
Also is there a way to ascertain that the current is not too strong to take the vehicle away?
Anything beyond floor board level be careful, especially the current is high, chances of vehicle leaving the desired track are high in such situation. Walking is best, if you find walking impossible, due to terrain or current, stay putt, till situation improve.

Technique of crossing, figure out bigger rocks, ruts etc and avoid it. Constant momentum and no stopping while crossing, so rip it in 1st low (if its tricky and at inclines) or control crossing in 2nd low.

Whatever it is, walk it and chart the track out multiple times if you need to. Gum boots are a must for crossing by foot.

I did the same thing when the water level increased at the first crossing at AKC, people who followed the spotter blindly, made it across easy. Those who ignored the wet duck standing there and waving, got stuck. This includes M&M recovery team. They had winch so they can afford to do anything i guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Regarding coming down very steep slopes, from personal experience, esp in such a heavy vehicle as the safari which tears down the slopes, its good in 1st low, but I sometimes press the accelerator pedal when I feel the vehicle is skidding down instead of driving down.
With a shorter gearing system, I would be using second low. For not so skiddy slopes, esp when its a steep trail driving type ghat section, I shift to 3rd gear in Low ratio, or 1st in high ratio. I chose the former because in Low ratio I have 4th and 5th upwards and 1st and 2nd downwards, lot of control speed. In 4H, I am on the lowest gear, so to slow down, I have to stop and then slot from 4H to 4L.
Don't see any harm in this, actually Jack is the expert with this acceleration technique downhill, with his 540 on NDMS and i think it works well. Needs some practice though, i guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sreerajunnithan View Post
If you want to know whats the actual issue with Robi's Invader, read the first page of engine braking thread. His invader in on very high gear ratio.
I know, once he sets the pump i think he will be happy to change the ratios also

Quote:
Originally Posted by swastikviji View Post
One More thing you Forgot, Robin is Driving a invader, It has Front Disc Brake, and Rear it has the advantage of Booster and Bigger Dia Brake Liners.
I was also under the impression, though Robi's invader is from one of the first batch of 4x4 version and runs drums all around. I was shocked when i heard it from Robi coz the brakes are sweet! Maybe new master cylinder etc helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack33 View Post
So if your speed is more and you are going out of control, it's better to apply brake slightly and if you feel that the jeep is slipping in 1 st gear you may slightly apply the throttle to correct it.It depends on a lot of variables like gear ratios/vehicle/suspension/brake systems/terrain at the given time and the perfect action requires a sharp and clear mind.
Yup Jack is the master of this technique of using throttle downhill and it a treat to watch him! And yes i will start practicing this soon.
Jaggu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2010, 11:20   #44
Senior - BHPian
 
Red Liner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,990
Thanked: 653 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Yup Jack is the master of this technique of using throttle downhill and it a treat to watch him! And yes i will start practicing this soon.
Jakku, you should see Jayesh climbing man...throttle variation + heel-toe to not slide back down...was totally loving it sitting next to him and watch the foot work. Messi all the way

Robi should just change his ratios to 4.88. An yeah, he has drum brakes all around - they have been set beautifully - no tantrums under hard braking (as we found out on our way to Pune).
Red Liner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2010, 12:16   #45
BHPian
 
Baburajs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 265
Thanked: 14 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sreerajunnithan View Post
ROTFLMFAO!!!! i couldn't resist this post!!

--Sree--

Me tooo. Viji sirrr . have some consideration for us tooo .
Baburajs is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OTR & Paragliding: Palakkad Off-Road Adventure's "Off-Road Extreme 2013" JeepCaptain 4x4 Excursions 7 2nd March 2013 12:45
Drift Techniques !! varun_patra Indian Motorsport 8 7th April 2010 14:50
Any new techniques for the old gashes Speedme Technical Stuff 3 12th January 2007 19:52
Launch techniques v1p3r Technical Stuff 29 9th July 2005 22:11
rally driving techniques manticore Indian Motorsport 29 26th May 2004 17:45


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 07:14.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks