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Old 26th August 2010, 12:31   #31
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Spike i definitely would like to read up more and understand as much as possible. And yes please reply to Arka's question, its very relevant for us.

Thanks in advance
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Old 26th August 2010, 19:05   #32
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@Spike / BD Sir,

Also, can you advice, which all are to be looked into, if I wanna get more juice out of my XD3P 2.5 NA Engine?

I can think of:

1. Better intake filter
2. Setting the tappets correctly
3. Better Exhaust with lesser bends without the secondary ??
4. Adjusting the pump to get a little higher revs from the Engine ? 2 % more?
5. Balancing the flywheel for 2000 RPM? - Is it necessary? Is the flywheel not balanced on assembly?
6. Porting and polishing the head ?


Now, after Wolffe, I too am getting interested in get into "drag" race mode
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Old 26th August 2010, 20:59   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
@Spike / BD Sir,

Also, can you advice, which all are to be looked into, if I wanna get more juice out of my XD3P 2.5 NA Engine?

I can think of:

1. Better intake filter
2. Setting the tappets correctly
3. Better Exhaust with lesser bends without the secondary ??
4. Adjusting the pump to get a little higher revs from the Engine ? 2 % more?
5. Balancing the flywheel for 2000 RPM? - Is it necessary? Is the flywheel not balanced on assembly?
6. Porting and polishing the head ?


Now, after Wolffe, I too am getting interested in get into "drag" race mode
Hi Vikram,

1. By better intake filter what do you mean? Dry foam type?
2. Tappets need to be set correctly for optimum performance (can provide you the details if you want)
3. This is OK, gains will be very marginal.
4. Use a combination similar to Army XD3P (pump and oil cooler), you can get 76.0 BHP at 4500 RPM as compared to 72.5 BHP at 4000 RPM.
5. Not necessary, flywheel runout is checked during assy, no need for any further balancing. Please let me know if you want the specifications for flywheel runout.
6. Stick to specifications, power whatever available is not that bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Spike i definitely would like to read up more and understand as much as possible. And yes please reply to Arka's question, its very relevant for us.

Thanks in advance
I'm in the process of compiling the details, will post as soon as ready.

Spike
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Old 27th August 2010, 11:14   #34
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Default Clutches (Part 1)

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Spike,

Please can you tell us more about the Type of Cover Assy's used in M&M Vehicles.

I know of Two types the Diaphragm & Finger Type (Dana/Petrol CJ3B) vs Borg & Beck /MM540/FC Van).

Which is more suited for heavy duty usage (off-road/Towing).

Regards,

Arka

PS - Wolf & Iron Wolf both own MM540's are are different beasts!!!!
M&M as of now uses only 2 types of clutches 1. Dry single plate (with diaphragm type clutch cover assembly) for all 4 wheelers, heavy duty applications 2. Wet multiplate for 3 wheelers.

Comparing old clutches to present day clutches is like comparing apple with oranges. With older link type actuating mechanisms, the force and movement ratio in a mechanical linkage depends on the levers and cables used in the assembly, whereas in a hydraulic system the most important parameters are master and slave cylinder sizes. What I am trying to state is, with a linkage system and a heavy duty clutch (ones with high FOS) clutch life can be improved significantly. The only downside will be an increase in pedal effort of 2.5-3 kgs.

Clutch system:-

The maximum torque which any clutch can transmit primarily depends on 3 factors:-
a) Radius of friction facing
b) Mu or coefficient of friction
c) Spring force, this determines your clutch pedal effort and sometimes acts as a drawback, becuase above a certain value of torque clutch actuation becomes difficult.

Durability of Clutches for various applications:-

For heavy duty,agricultural,situations requiring continuous drive use multiplate or cone clutches due to the large surface area provided by the clutch plates. Nowadays, cone clutches are usually not considered due to their inconsistency in operation.

For durability, a diaphragm type clutch is always preferred due to the following reasons:-
1. No centrifugal effects at high rotational speeds.
2. A heavier pressure plate can be used due to the compactness of a diaphragm spring for the same overall length. This results in better thermal capacity of clutches helping in better heat dissipation and hence better life.
3. Uniform clamping pressure throughout clutch life and better clamping load distribution.

Problem areas:-

A major problem with earlier clutches was the lining and adhesive which could not withstand high temperatures and could not cure rapidly. With newer manufacturing technologies a larger proportion of the friction facing material can be utilized aiding better thermal characteristics. My next post will explain Friction lining materials which play a pivotal role in the way clutches work and perform.

To improve durability a lot of research has been done on diaphragm springs. For e.g. the shouldered rivets with case hardening/hardened sleeves improve clutch durability by reducing the deflection of fulcrum springs, the ends of the radial fingers in the diaphragm spring are ground flat, as this improves wear resistance of the fingers.



Spike

PS- As a thumb rule, drawbar must be restricted to GVW+ 1 ~1.5 Tonnes for good clutch life. A primary reason for clutch failure while towing is increased yield stresses generated due to towing loads. Up to some extent clutch life can be improved by using a clutch with higher Factor of Safety (FOS), obviously the clutch pedal effort will increase.

Reference- Manual for clutch design (Internal circulation)

Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 27th August 2010 at 11:19. Reason: add info
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Old 27th August 2010, 18:43   #35
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Spike, Please don't put internal manuals in a public forum. Somebody already lost his job because of that.

I'm scared to post, because I dunno what is confidential and what is not. I work in Cummins Technical Centre at Columbus, Indiana btw.
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Old 27th August 2010, 20:08   #36
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Wink

^^ I know it very well, and I ensure I post info which can never be directly/indirectly attributed to any particular IPR. No issues whatsoever. Anyway, still thanks for reminding.

Spike

Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 27th August 2010 at 20:11.
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Old 28th August 2010, 09:33   #37
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Spike, Please don't put internal manuals in a public forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
^^ I know it very well, and I ensure I post info which can never be directly/indirectly attributed to any particular IPR.


Sorry coudlnt resist:

@Jomz: Thats why he is "SPIKE ARRESTOR".
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Old 2nd September 2010, 17:17   #38
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Default Tappet Adjustment.

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@Spike,
2. Setting the tappets correctly
Hi Spike,

Could you give me the specs for XD3P & MDI3200TC.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 3rd September 2010, 08:58   #39
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Hi Arka,

Tappet setting values (Cold) are:-

MDI 3200TC

Inlet Valve - 0.45 mm (18 THOU)
Exhaust Valve - 0.55 mm (22 THOU)

XD3P

Inlet Valve - 0.15-0.20 mm (6-8 THOU)
Exhaust Valve - 0.25-0.30 mm (10-12 THOU).

Let me know if you need any more specifications.

Spike
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Old 3rd September 2010, 10:29   #40
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Default Running-In

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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Hi Arka,

Tappet setting values (Cold) are:-

MDI 3200TC

Inlet Valve - 0.45 mm (18 THOU)
Exhaust Valve - 0.55 mm (22 THOU)

XD3P

Inlet Valve - 0.15-0.20 mm (6-8 THOU)
Exhaust Valve - 0.25-0.30 mm (10-12 THOU).

Let me know if you need any more specifications.

Spike
Hi Spike,

Thank for the information, this is very useful.

Can you please tell us the proper RUNNING-IN Procedure for the XD3P & MDI3200TC (NEW)engine.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 3rd September 2010, 16:05   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Spike,

Thank for the information, this is very useful.

Can you please tell us the proper RUNNING-IN Procedure for the XD3P & MDI3200TC (NEW)engine.

Regards,

Arka
Arka, for proper running in you can always follow manufacturers recommendation as mentioned in the Owners manual. However, there is something I would like to add which may or may not be mentioned in the booklet.

Full load can be applied on a new engine provided the engine coolant is first allowed to reach a temperature of at-least 50-60 deg C. This temperature is called as best cooling water temperature range, here the engine performance is at its peak. Every engine has its specific "Best temperature" and can vary. I happened to do an experiment on this in my Heat and Mass Transfer lab during my college days. IIRC, the test result was somewhere close to ~60 deg mark (don't remember the engine though :-(

Spike

PS- Just like "Running in" there are a few things you need to do once the Tappets are set in-order to get peak performance and longevity of the engine.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 16:14   #42
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Default Running-In

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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Arka, for proper running in you can always follow manufacturers recommendation as mentioned in the Owners manual. However, there is something I would like to add which may or may not be mentioned in the booklet.

Full load can be applied on a new engine provided the engine coolant is first allowed to reach a temperature of at-least 50-60 deg C. This temperature is called as best cooling water temperature range, here the engine performance is at its peak. Every engine has its specific "Best temperature" and can vary. I happened to do an experiment on this in my Heat and Mass Transfer lab during my college days. IIRC, the test result was somewhere close to ~60 deg mark (don't remember the engine though :-(

Spike

PS- Just like "Running in" there are a few things you need to do once the Tappets are set in-order to get peak performance and longevity of the engine.
Hi Spike,

I don't have the Owner's Manual for my MM540XD and CJ3B :(.

What is the procedure for the XD3P, Test Bench Running-In, Re-tighten the head, and after it is fitted in the vehicle?

F4-134, is quite simple, can we follow the same procedure for XD3P?

Your point about Optimum/ideal Temp. is a very good suggestion and recommended by most engine rebuild manuals.

Regards,

Arka

PS - List out the few things to get performance and longevity for XD & MDI series

Last edited by ex670c : 3rd September 2010 at 16:17.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 17:07   #43
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^^
Arka, how do you run in the F4-134 engine? For XD3P and MDI the basic steps are similar. After the engine is assembled back to the vehicle and all the connections are made do the following:-

1. Start the engine and run at idle for 5 minutes. Observe for leaks during this.
2. Drive the vehicle at 50% of the max speed in each gear for 15 kms approx.
3. Re-tighten the cylinder head once it cools.
4. Reset the tappets.
5. Drive with a speed limitation (recommended) for approximately 2000 kms.
6. Readjust the fan belt, tappet clearance and change oil after 5000 kms.
7. Tappet setting is to be done every 20000 kms.

Test bench running is a bit different, I will try and post it some other time. Its Friday and the last working day, I'm getting lazy (yawn).

Spike

Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 3rd September 2010 at 17:09.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 17:38   #44
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Default Running-In

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^^how do you run in the F4-134 engine?
Hi Spike,

This is the procedure I followed for the F4-134.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 3rd September 2010, 18:51   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
a temperature of at-least 50-60 deg C. This temperature is called as best cooling water temperature range, here the engine performance is at its peak. Every engine has its specific "Best temperature" and can vary. I happened to do an experiment on this in my Heat and Mass Transfer lab during my college days. IIRC, the test result was somewhere close to ~60 deg mark (don't remember the engine though :-(
Spike, IIRC, it is 70 to 90 deg C. This is the optimum coolant temperature for most IC engines.

50-60 will be too cold IMO. Anyways..


Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Spike,

This is the procedure I followed for the F4-134.
This is similar to the italian run-in of new engines which if popular on this forum!!
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