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Old 18th November 2010, 15:51   #1
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Unhappy Jeep won't start - please help trouble shoot.

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Hi All,

In early 2009, we acquired a MM540 for use in campaigning for the general elections. The vehicle is a mix-n-match, I don't think anything in it is original. It has a International Engine and has been converted to 2WD.

It did its job during the campaign with minimal fuss. After the elections, I decided to keep it just for fun. It saw very minimal usage and the only work done was on the steering box and front suspension after a small accident during a driving lesson.

Though it was used only a few times a month, it was started and left to idle for 10 mins every day. During a particularly long run of dis-use (about 4 weeks), the vehicle ran out of diesel during the daily idling session and stalled.

After about 3 days, I put in 5 liters of diesel and tried to start it, but it wouldn't. I thought it was a simple case of air-lock and tried the priming pump for quite some time, but no use. I left it at that meaning to get a mechanic to look at it.

Two months passed before I realized. I finally got around to getting a mechanic to look at it. He spent about 4 hours on it yesterday and some 3 hours on it today. Here is a quick summary of what happened:

1. Not enough diesel, put in another 5 liters (Rs 200/-)
2. Diesel line is clogged with gunk, change the line (Rs 300/-)
3. Fuel filters dirty, change them (Rs 170/-)
4. Priming pump valve or something (he calls it kicker/clicker valve) is slipping replace it (Rs 230/-)
5. Other odd bits (cleaner, gear oil etc ~ 200/-)
6. Labour charges for the mechanic (Rs 400/-)

And the Jeep still doesn't start. Actually it did start once this morning - ran for about 2 mins spewing a lot of black smoke and stalled again. The mechanic's last diagnosis was that the 'governor' or something got stuck in the Bosch pump and the pump needs to be over-hauled which would cost about Rs 4,000 - 5,000.

I had already spent Rs 1,500 and wasted a lot of diesel. And I was not ready for spending more money without knowing the problem for sure. I don't have a 'regular' mechanic for the Jeep and I didn't know how good (or bad) this particular guy is in diagnosing the problem correctly. So I told him thanks, but no thanks, and asked him to stop there.

And now I am back where I started - with a Jeep that won't start.

Any ideas / suggestions from the experts about what might be the problem?

I am not afraid to get my hands dirty/greasy as long I know what I am doing.

Thanks for you help.

Cheers
Teja
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Old 18th November 2010, 16:00   #2
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first thing change your mechanic.

check the diesel pump timing.
there is a electrical connection to the fuel pump check if its connected.
check the heater plugs.

& dont feel bad for the money spent till now its not wasted. (unless the mechanic fooled you by not changing the parts)

rgds,
Nikhil
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Old 18th November 2010, 17:56   #3
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Note from the Team-BHP Support Team : Thread moved to the 4x4 Technical Section.
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Old 19th November 2010, 09:35   #4
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Check this out

1) engine cranking speed ( starter moving engine slowly) not sufficiant

2) oil level

3) when replacing filters , fill the filter cups with diesel , not from inside the filters which is ' filtered ' side but from outer side ( tank supply ) & then fit ( it helps diesel flow in bleeding )

4) bleed the diesel circuit properly check for all bleed skrews ( specially on distributor pump )

5) after the bleeding has been done properly , loosen the hipressure pipes going to nosels (at nosel side only ), but dont disconnect .

6) crank the engine for few revolutions with full thorottle , check for diesel comming out & retighten the pipes

7) again crank the engine little with throttle , then give heater ( If any ) & start normally .

8) also check for air filter & air supply circuit ( hoses etc ) for irregularities

If this dosent work please send photos of the distributor pump ( bosch pump ) , fuel filters , nosels etc . So it will be easy for further suggestions .

thease are general suggestions there are few more but first check thease things

Sudarshan

Last edited by Sudarshan : 19th November 2010 at 09:41.
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Old 19th November 2010, 11:22   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepster View Post
check the diesel pump timing.
there is a electrical connection to the fuel pump check if its connected.
check the heater plugs.

& dont feel bad for the money spent till now its not wasted. (unless the mechanic fooled you by not changing the parts)
Thanks, will do. I also suspected the heater plug, but seemed ok. Will check again.

And yes, the parts were all changed in front of me. I bought them and the mech changed them and gave me the old parts. Thanks to TBHP, I am now cautious in this respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Check this out (1).... (8)

If this dosent work please send photos of the distributor pump ( bosch pump ) , fuel filters , nosels etc . So it will be easy for further suggestions .
Thanks for the list, will check each one. And will post photos of the pump if it still doesn't start.

Unfortunately, three days of continuous cranking after two months of dis-use took its toll on the poor battery. It is getting charged now - will get back to business as soon as it is ready.

Cheers.
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Old 20th November 2010, 04:51   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Check this out

1) engine cranking speed ( starter moving engine slowly) not sufficiant

This gets my vote. If your battery is weak your engine may crank but not start. Diesels are...er...cranky this way.
The smoke is just fuel not completely burned.

Check your battery.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 16:55   #7
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Default Weekend Update

Rolled up my sleeves and got working on the Jeep this weekend. No success in getting it to start, but I did learn quite a lot about it.

1. Battery is A-OK! It has been fully charged and shows 13.8V.

2. Starter motor and cranking speed also seemed fine to me, but no scientific test.

3. Air-filter had little oil in the bath and a lot of rubbish. Cleaned the bath and put in some clean oil.

4. Both the primary pump and injection pump seemed to working OK. Diesel bled out from the vent nozzle as well as the filter pipe when loosened. However I couldn't get any diesel out of the loosened high pressure injection line. I opened the face plate of the injection pump and I could see all four pistons moving properly on cranking. Will put in some more diesel and check.

5. Couldn't get to the glow-plugs. They are behind the pump supply lines and are quite difficult to reach with a straight spanner - need an off-set spanner that I do not have.

6. Crank-case oil is very low (no reading on the dip stick) - I drained it and I think only about 2 - 2.5 liters came out. Either there is a leak (I couldn't find any) or I was scammed at the last oil change. And the oil was black and in poor state. Will put in new oil - what grade & how much of it does the Inter engine take? 5 liters of 20W50? And where I pour it into - the breather at the top of the engine head?

Stopped there for now - the grease and grime was getting into my bruised knuckles and starting to burn a bit. Next repair session on Saturday.

I stumbled across the Blur-Ribbon service manuals for the B-275 engine while searching the net, so I can be a bit more knowledgeable this time.

I did take some pics of the engine and the pump, but left the camera at a friend's place. Will post pics tomorrow.

Cheers
Teja
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Old 22nd November 2010, 18:40   #8
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Quote:
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Rolled up my sleeves and got working on the Jeep this weekend.

Stopped there for now - the grease and grime was getting into my bruised knuckles and starting to burn a bit.

Teja
Aahh thats the enjoyment of DIY you earn when you learn

Send pictures, we will start the Jeep .

About oil - check at the local petrol pump, get a 20/40 multigrade oil ( which is for Diesel engines ) or a monograde 40 .

Dont forget to change the engine oil filter also ,its a must with every oil change '

Sudarshan
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Old 23rd November 2010, 08:15   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H3LIOS
5. Couldn't get to the glow-plugs. They are behind the pump supply lines and are quite difficult to reach with a straight spanner - need an off-set spanner that I do not have.
The B275 will never start if the glow plugs are not working until unless you do a tow start or push start. you need to push it atleast for more than 200mtrs in 2nd gear with a good speed. you might be having the filament type plugs which will get busted when over heated. please change it to pencil type. you will not get pencil type for B275 in market. ask for Matador F307 pencil type glow plugs which is a direct fit for B275.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 15:37   #10
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Default Photos

Here are the photos.

Engine view from both sides.
Jeep won't start - please help trouble shoot.-enginesidea.jpg

Jeep won't start - please help trouble shoot.-enginesideb.jpg

The Bosch Pump and close-ups of the two manufacturer tags on it.
Jeep won't start - please help trouble shoot.-boschpumpa.jpg

Jeep won't start - please help trouble shoot.-boschpumpb.jpg

Jeep won't start - please help trouble shoot.-boschpumpc.jpg

Cheers.
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Old 26th November 2010, 08:58   #11
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Check heater plugs, & as rightly suggested by Star-aqua they are must, convert to pencil type if possible . Pencil type have paralal type of connection ,so even 1 fails the vehicle can be started with other 3.

Oil filling - looks like there is no other way but from top ( tappet cover breather )

A visit to local mico/bosch pump service will help ( take along the model/serial number on the pump lable , it will help ) . I could not see the bleed skrews in your pics . So if you ask them about thease doubts they will provide you all primary/necessary info about this specific pump . get a drawing/layout of this particular diesel circuit (connections ) ,it will help to understand & solve issues .

I am not well versed with the inter type engines .This is general knowledge, I thought will help .

I have mainly dealt with peugot( 2.1 Jeeps) & cav DP/DPA types ( Land Rover a totally different diesel circuit) & other engines .

I will try my best ( need to look in my library) to sort out some thing for you .

Meanwhile you can PM Dhabhar Behram Sir & spike & ask .

Most important check the position of engine shut off lever on pump, there will be a spring to hold it in OPEN /ON position ,
( this is a common mistake , lever remains in off position ,without spring )

Diesel comes in very small quantity ( with starter moving engine ) from the high pressure lines when loosened

Sudarshan

Last edited by Sudarshan : 26th November 2010 at 09:03.
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Old 26th November 2010, 16:31   #12
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You could try this at your own risk.
We used to have an international tractor for a long time with the B275 engine. in the cold months, it would have starting problems and we found an ingenious solution to get it to start in a remote farm.

We would dip a piece of cotton waste in petrol, squeeze it out and hold it near the air intake so that some of the fumes would go in when the engine was cranked.

The engine would be cranked and we would remove the waste piece immediately as the engine caught on.

Cheers.
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Old 26th November 2010, 16:46   #13
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Quote:
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You could try this at your own risk.
We used to have an international tractor for a long time with the B275 engine. in the cold months, it would have starting problems and we found an ingenious solution to get it to start in a remote farm.

We would dip a piece of cotton waste in petrol, squeeze it out and hold it near the air intake so that some of the fumes would go in when the engine was cranked.

The engine would be cranked and we would remove the waste piece immediately as the engine caught on.

Cheers.
this is called locally as ' vaass dene ' ( bass dena or giving a smell of gasoline ) but any excess amount of petrol & there is a danger of detonation inside the combustion chamber , needs to be done very very carefully .
In any case do not let the droplets of petrol go inside the manifold .

I would have suggested it ,but didnt because
1) I am not sure if 'H3LIOS ' will be able to handle properly
2) starting the engine forcefully without fully/surely bleeding the system leads to distributor pump dammage , here this is still a doubt for me .

So it will be better to check every thing before hand

@ boeuff , in your case the problem was only a cold start as all other things/systems were in place already.

Sudarshan
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Old 27th November 2010, 21:14   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
this is called locally as ' vaass dene ' ( bass dena or giving a smell of gasoline ) but any excess amount of petrol & there is a danger of detonation inside the combustion chamber , needs to be done very very carefully .
In any case do not let the droplets of petrol go inside the manifold .

I would have suggested it ,but didnt because
1) I am not sure if 'H3LIOS ' will be able to handle properly
2) starting the engine forcefully without fully/surely bleeding the system leads to distributor pump dammage , here this is still a doubt for me .

So it will be better to check every thing before hand

@ boeuff , in your case the problem was only a cold start as all other things/systems were in place already.

Sudarshan
Yup, Agree with you. one has to do this carefully.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 14:56   #15
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Update: Couldn't get to the Jeep over the weekend, had to attend 3 weddings and one was out of station. I got the oil, still have to get a suitable spanner to reach the glow-plugs.

Will get to it this weekend.

I don't want to mess around with the petrol-rag or anything like that...... yet. I am newbie to all this and want to take it slow and safe.

Cheers.
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