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Old 27th January 2011, 17:11   #1
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Default Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

First Incident:

Broke Front, Left, Upper bearing at TPC less than 12 hours before the main event. This was fixed by UBS, Arka and Ali (who was also a participant) right there in the parking lot. Both upper and lower bearings were replaced.

In an earlier O-Team recce I had managed to get the Gypsy embedded in a sandy rut with the left front forced into the wheel well. This probably caused the breakage.

Second Incident:

Broke the Front, Right, Upper bearing. Not sure when I had broken it and as far as I can remember no hard-driving/jumps had happened since Palar. This was discovered on the way to a Lonavala OTR (Tungarli Dam).

BOTH upper and lower bearings were replaced.
BOTH Front Left and Front Right bearings were replaced as a precaution.


Third Incident:

Broke the Front, Left, Upper bearing at Mahape during the Republic Day OTR. Even before the OTR the wheel looked off-camber and it got worse after an ill-advised jump where I landed heavily on the Front, Left wheel. Clearly the bearing was broken as differential oil was dripping out. Drove the vehicle back to Allan's garage and it is still there.

No doubt I need some lessons in driving over crested climbs. I am just not used to the traction and power the combined effect of the MT tires and diff-locks give me. Next time I will use the skid plates to greater effect but getting over the mental block of skidding the vehicle will take some time.


Now before I go to Maruti Service and get the bearings replaced again I have a few questions:

1. Should I be checking something else at this time? Other vehicles are driven just as hard as mine with greater negative offsets and bigger tires and their king-pins don't break! Why mine?

2. Any specific brand I should focus on? SKF etc.?

3. Any different type of bearing I can try? Needle roller?

4. Is there some procedure to be followed while installing new bearings? The first ones lasted several OTRs without breaking. I guess driving through water had weakened the bearings over time leading to the break. How do I get a "factory fit" ?

5. Any other ideas or alternative fits? Bushes? Anything else to be replaced at the same time?


I want this problem to go away as it has struck me 3 times so far and nobody else I know, who drives a Gypsy has reported this issue!!
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Old 27th January 2011, 19:09   #2
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Default Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

Hello GS ,
Check the following ,

1) front leaf spring set up for

a) addition of excess leaves
b) over tensioning of road springs that is 'pata' ( you will see the shackle remaining 90 degrees to chassis horizontal line ) it needs to be slightly angled .
c) altered bump stops ,not letting the suspension to bottom up fully
d) worn out suspension bushings

2) try to assemble the king pins by standard method ( pics given bellow )

Explanation : Like Jeep the king pin works on two taper roller bearings ,& a shim setup .While fitting these bearings two things are important
a) the bearings should be set so ,that the movement will be a little tight ( in layman's language )
b) this needs to be done 'without' the knuckle oil seal fitted .
c) this is done by adding or removing the shims step by step
d) check every part for damage
I am attaching pics as how its done

3) after the proper assembly of king pins
a) you will need to check the wheel alignment

Read the following instructions properly . you need to do this properly then run the vehicle & even after that the same thing occurs then check for the housing for damage

1)
Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue-knu1.jpg

2)
Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue-knu2.jpg

3)
Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue-knu3.jpg

Sudarshan

Last edited by Sudarshan : 27th January 2011 at 19:11.
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Old 27th January 2011, 20:59   #3
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Default Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

Thanks for the instructions on how to properly install the bearing. Now should I be shopping for a brand bearing like SKF? Any other products come to mind. I will need to open the setup to identify the shims and figure things out one by one...this will mean camping at Maruti service center over the weekend until it is sorted out.
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Old 27th January 2011, 21:25   #4
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Default Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

@ GS , thank me only if things work as I suggested , till then hold on

I think MGP ( maruti genuine parts ) bearings of what ever make they give should do the job .

You can buy a standard set of shims ( MGP ) it will come handy & help you understand the function before hand .

If You spend time during the works it will surely help you to understand the functioning & also you will know the weakest spot . This will also tell you how far you can tax/push/load the vehicle . Time spent observing things certainly helps in many ways .

By tomorrow I will scratch my head more & dig deeper for this in my library , till then I leave it for experts ,

I don't know how far you are inclined to the mechanical part ( other than driving etc ) of your vehicle but more the better .

Sudarshan

P.S. Taper roller bearings mainly fail because of lack of proper settings ( either too loose or too tight )
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Old 28th January 2011, 10:33   #5
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Arrow Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

Hi GS have a look at these pics

This is a Land Rover closed knuckle , 50 years old .( inspired & derived from JEEP but more sturdy & heavy duty ) This is similar to your Jeep/Gypsy .

When you will open your Gypsy expect similarities , I have put these pic to let you know a few things before hand .

Your focus should be on close inspection of parts , for any sign of damage

Very closely inspect the areas where the bearing ( inner & outer races ) fits , check for any loose fitting ,specially on outer ring part '

also check the upper & lower king pin for wear/defects .areas are shown in pic -3

1)
Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue-kn2.jpg
2)
Name:  kn3.jpg
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3)
Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue-kn4.jpg

Sudarshan
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Old 28th January 2011, 11:30   #6
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Default Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

Thanks Sudarshan. I think I damaged the upper shim the first time the bearings were replaced (left side). I'll take a closer look this time and use MGP parts only.

Cheers!
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Old 28th January 2011, 11:56   #7
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Default Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

GS, my king pin became pieces after a jump like yours, as sudarshan pointed out, Shims were the culprit. I had a Death wobble issue, and mahindra A.S.S removed all the shims and tightened it to max. If there are no shims, as soon as you land, the entire shock will be transferred to kingpin bearings. As a result, it will be shredded. 99.99% it should be a shim issue.

--Sree--
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Old 28th January 2011, 13:12   #8
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Default Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

Thanks Sree - I suspect the shims also. Is there any recommended clearance (shim thickness) or is it just done by feel. Also where will I get different thickness shims? I'm not sure Maruti A.S.S will stock all these parts. I'm looking at a bit of a wait by the look of things.
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Old 28th January 2011, 13:36   #9
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Default Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsferrari View Post
Thanks Sree - I suspect the shims also. Is there any recommended clearance (shim thickness) or is it just done by feel. Also where will I get different thickness shims? I'm not sure Maruti A.S.S will stock all these parts. I'm looking at a bit of a wait by the look of things.
Please read my post # 2 very carefully,specially the info in the pics, get a printout of that ( Its official ).

these shims will be available in the maruti parts bin ,IMO its a regular item .

you can measure the thickness on vernier caliper , but I think it wont be needed, because one needs to add or lessen shims according to tightness or looseness of the knuckle .

You will need a experienced mech who wont do it hurriedly .

I again Urge you to examine all the related parts very closely & in good light for ware & damage .

Ab BOL ( Best Of Luck) Guru

Sudarshan
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Old 28th January 2011, 14:20   #10
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Default Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsferrari View Post
Thanks Sree - I suspect the shims also. Is there any recommended clearance (shim thickness) or is it just done by feel. Also where will I get different thickness shims? I'm not sure Maruti A.S.S will stock all these parts. I'm looking at a bit of a wait by the look of things.
It's an easy "Touch and Feel" Job for an experienced Mech. I never had issues after my Local mech fixed it. As sudarshan told, it's a regular item so it wont be difficult to get from A.S.S

--Sree--
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Old 31st January 2011, 13:48   #11
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Default Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

I agree with the others here.

Also, you have the increased your wheel track by using negative offset wheels. This could also lead to frequent failures of the kingpin bearings and the load points are different to stock. [I mean the wheel centreline is shifted outside of the bearing centreline]

Your KPI is not correct leading to frequent breakages!
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Old 31st January 2011, 14:32   #12
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Default Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

@headers - I was breaking Kingpins even with the stock wheels with the 215-75 tires. Broke 2 of them with stock setup. This is the first failure with the new wheels/tires. There are other Gypsies using bigger tires and massively offset rims 10J etc. without issues. I think there is something else which is wrong with my Gypsy.
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Old 31st January 2011, 14:45   #13
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Default Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post

Your KPI is not correct leading to frequent breakages!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsferrari View Post
@headers - I was breaking Kingpins even with the stock wheels with the 215-75 tires. Broke 2 of them with stock setup......

I think there is something else which is wrong with my Gypsy.
The above is self explanatory. Also, Sudarshan has given a fantastic graphical explanation of how to do..

Just get a good mechanic have a look..

Cheers
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Old 31st January 2011, 15:34   #14
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Default Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Hello GS ,
Check the following ,

1) front leaf spring set up for

a) addition of excess leaves
b) over tensioning of road springs that is 'pata' ( you will see the shackle remaining 90 degrees to chassis horizontal line ) it needs to be slightly angled .
c) altered bump stops ,not letting the suspension to bottom up fully
Now I am smelling more & more probability here ( the above ), I don't know why I feel that .

Quote:
d) check every part for damage
Includes spots/parts on which bearings fit .

Sudarshan

Last edited by Sudarshan : 31st January 2011 at 15:56.
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Old 31st January 2011, 15:40   #15
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Default Re: Maruti Gypsy MG413W - King Pin Bearing issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Now I am smelling more & more probability here , I don't know why I feel that .

Sir, He has got shackle lift etc etc.. GS please send pics of all your mods..before and after !!

Cheers
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