Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > 4x4 & Off-Roading > 4x4 Technical


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 18th February 2011, 15:16   #31
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: haridwar
Posts: 588
Thanked: 448 Times
Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

Uno and palio had very different gear ratios,much shorter. Thats what made them feel like monster torque cars,but actually engine did not have Any significant torque at any rmp.
jeepster: Do you have any data that would suggest that gypsy 5 speed gb wil handle 190+nm of torque,because imo it wont.
I would advocate for 2l cruze mill,at only 170kg it would offer what not other can. With proper gb and crawler it would climb walls!
But all this if only you actually are doing the project,and not a mere thread!
dustom_99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2011, 22:06   #32
Senior - BHPian
 
jeepster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: MH24 aka LATUR
Posts: 1,521
Thanked: 941 Times
Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

yes i wanna do it but after all the complications i see now, i think i have to postpone the project for some time.

to stock up parts & to find a good work shop.

& if the stock GB can not handle the 190+ nm of torque, then it has to be either mahindra or isuzu ones.

following specs are of current king.
Quote:
Engine
Type G13BB MPFI 16 Valve Gasoline
Cylinder 4
Displacement 1298cc
Maximum Power 80 bhp @6000 rpm
Maximum Torque 103 Nm @ 4500 rpm
Transmission
Type Five forward (all Synchromesh), One reverse
Transfer gearbox Two-speed
Type constant mesh
Transfer gear ratio High : 1.409; Low : 2.268

Last edited by jeepster : 18th February 2011 at 22:24.
jeepster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2011, 21:22   #33
Senior - BHPian
 
headers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Greater Chennai
Posts: 4,548
Thanked: 424 Times
Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

Very interesting thread. Will follow very eagerly!
headers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2011, 12:04   #34
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,496
Thanked: 6,777 Times
Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepster View Post
& if the stock GB can not handle the 190+ nm of torque, then it has to be either mahindra or isuzu ones.
Gearbox handling 190 nm torque should not be an issue, as i said study the integration part that will be where you will spend time more.
Jaggu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2011, 20:08   #35
BHPian
 
abheekg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nagpur
Posts: 685
Thanked: 172 Times
Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

I would be keenly observing this space as I have planned a similar mod on one of my Gypsies which I want to use as my daily drive apart from highway cruising and for ocassional soft jungle drives.

What would be the approximate estimated expenses for this engine upgrade and what other modifications may be needed to be done to the narrow track 1990 model Gypsy ?

I believe sourcing an used DDIS engine won't be an issue with so many totalled swifts around.

Following this keenly.

Dr. A Ghosh
abheekg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2011, 21:30   #36
BHPian
 
Frankenstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Bangalore/hyderabad
Posts: 330
Thanked: 269 Times
Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

TDI racing Bangalore has plonked a skoda 1.9tdi engine in a gypsy retaining the 4wd gearbox.You can check with them.
Frankenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2012, 00:19   #37
BHPian
 
abheekg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nagpur
Posts: 685
Thanked: 172 Times
Default 1.3 DDIS engine swap for Gypsy King - What all things to keep in mind ?

Dear friends,
I am about to indulge myself into converting my 1998 MG410W or my 1999 MG413W into a diesel truck by putting a 1.3L swift diesel engine. I have the recipient vehicle and the total loss engine with gearbox with all wiring and electrical components from a 2010 swift dzire ready. Before going ahead with this project, I want to know from everybody the things I should keep in mind before starting this conversion. I am giving myself a 4 month time for completing this project. I will require the help and support of the entire community to do this long cherished project.

regards,
Dr. A Ghosh

Last edited by abheekg : 28th March 2012 at 00:20.
abheekg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2012, 10:38   #38
BHPian
 
satan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: mumbai
Posts: 355
Thanked: 801 Times
Default Re: 1.3 DDIS engine swap for Gypsy King - What all things to keep in mind ?

Aaah, now this is THE swap that I am waiting to hear about. The Gypsy's light weight coupled with the 200 odd NM of torque from the light weight Swift engine will make an awesome awesome combo for both highway cruising and offroading.

I am not an expert but can suggest a couple of very basic mods that would be needed for this swap
1. Beefier clutch
2. Refabricated/ reinforced engine mounts
3. Additional/ recambered leafs upfront + stronger shocks
4. Transfer case mount
5. Upgrade rear brakes to discs (nice to have)

Good luck with the swap! I will be following this thread very closely
satan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2012, 10:47   #39
Team-BHP Support
 
moralfibre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: MH-12
Posts: 6,572
Thanked: 6,036 Times
Default Re: 1.3 DDIS engine swap for Gypsy King - What all things to keep in mind ?

The Gypsy is a rear wheel drive / 4x4 whereas the the Swift DDIS gearbox is designed for a front wheel drive car. The first thing that comes to my mind is the challenge with mating the Swift 1.3 DDIS engine to the existing Gypsy gearbox.
moralfibre is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2012, 12:34   #40
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hyd
Posts: 242
Thanked: 35 Times
Default Re: 1.3 DDIS engine swap for Gypsy King - What all things to keep in mind ?

That is one combination that I was always looking for and wondering why Marithi doesn't plonk this engine in Gypsy like they did with other models.

I'm no expert, but the major task ahead seems to be getting all the inputs right to the ECU. I think all these modern cars depend highly on the electronics and getting them right could be a major task. You may have to study the Swift wiring diagram thoroughly and understand what each component/sensor does and see that you replicate that exactly. From what I know, even if one sensor malfunctions or sends some wrong data, the will not perform/perform as desired.

In case of my Scorpio, there even seems to be a clutch switch which indicates to the ECU that the clutch is being pressed, then there is an air mass sensor measuring the air flow from the filter. You will have to take all this kind of misc sensors which may be part of the swift ddis.
asdfvinay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2012, 14:41   #41
Senior - BHPian
 
Blue Thunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Right here .
Posts: 1,630
Thanked: 328 Times
Arrow Re: 1.3 DDIS engine swap for Gypsy King - What all things to keep in mind ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by abheekg View Post
... engine with gearbox with all wiring and electrical components from a 2010 swift dzire ...
Guess you will be able to use only the engine. Are you planning to use the existing Gypsy gearbox+transfer-case ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by abheekg View Post
...the things I should keep in mind before starting this conversion. ...
  • adapter plate for engine-to-gearbox;
  • engine mounts :will they match existing locations on chassis?
  • transfer-case mounts...will it be the same location; if not, new mounts to be made/welded, and new prop-shafts to be made for the changed lengths;
  • rated engine RPM mismatch...diff ratio may need to be changed, else it will be slow, on-road;
Good luck on this project ....as many others here, I will also be keenly following this project.

Last edited by Blue Thunder : 28th March 2012 at 14:44.
Blue Thunder is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2012, 03:33   #42
BHPian
 
abheekg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nagpur
Posts: 685
Thanked: 172 Times
Default Re: 1.3 DDIS engine swap for Gypsy King - What all things to keep in mind ?

Dear Friends,
I am not a very technical person when it comes to automobiles and all the modifications that I have done on my jeeps so far have been done on instinct. I believe in doing my homework right before the start of any project and all of you have got to admit that this is going to be a very big test indeed.

I actually have options for 2 common rail diesel engines for my Gypsy - one being the Swift 1.3 DDIS and the other being the Renault 1.5 dCi and maybe some others too.

Reading up all info available till date on the internet on the use of common rail diesel engines in 4 wheel drive Suzuki Samurai / Suzuki Jimny , I have found out that there was one version of the Jimny manufactured from 2004 to 2009 in some european markets which used the Renault-built DDiS 1,461 cc K9K engine (the same engine which does duty on our Mahindra Logans, Nissan Micra, and the to be launched Renault Duster).

ref : Suzuki Jimny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Renault K-Type engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are some youtube videos also which I have come across of such diesel Jimnys





You will be able to make out these are indeed diesel vehicles if you carefully listen to the engine grunt.

I have also come across what I believe is a K9K engine layout diagram inside a Jimny

DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?-k9kengine-jimny.jpg
Need the help of experts to understand if this is really the k9k renault engine layout (if it can be made out from this figure)

DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?-k9kengine-jimny2.jpg
Data from : Frequently Asked Questions


I have also come across product spec pages for diesel jimnys Suzuki Jimny 1.5 DDiS Club 2006. Pictures. Specs. and ads for diesel Jimnys for sale in europe - The Languedoc Forum - • View topic - For Sale - Suzuki Jimny Diesel and Ebay UK has a lot of 1.5 diesel Jimny parts for sale.

All said and done, I could not find any reference to a 1.3 Fiat common rail diesel engine swap to a samurai / Jimny / Sidekick / Gypsy.

Infact the diesel Suzuki Grand Vitara which is on sale in some countries 2009 Suzuki Grand Vitara DDiS Review Page 1 of 2 | Reviews | Prices | Australian specifications also uses the Renault 1.9 common rail diesel engine.

All this has got me thinking about why I am limiting myself to the Fiat motor when Suzuki themselves seem to have preferred the Renault motor in the Gypsy siblings sold outside India.

Then I read the following comment from one of our members posted 1 year back:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustom_99 View Post
Ddis may be a dream powerplant,it will be lighter and offer torque much needed for offroading.
I would like to add that if you jump in for such a project,you should consided other engines as well,1.5crdi,2.2crde,2l cruze or even innova power plant.
You would be paying similar kind of money in market for either of them,few thousant give or take.
You will have to do rest of the work of setting up a drive train and adapter plate anyway,no matter what engine you choose.
Cruze or verna powerplant would be better imo!


I am more and more convinced that there must have been some very good reason why Maruti did not bring the Swift diesel engine in the Gypsy. Which makes me wonder if I should use the swift engine or look at other options.

Lets have an answer to this question before we proceed any further.
Quote:
Originally Posted by satan View Post
Aaah, now this is THE swap that I am waiting to hear about.

Good luck with the swap! I will be following this thread very closely
Quote:
Originally Posted by moralfibre View Post
The Gypsy is a rear wheel drive / 4x4 whereas the the Swift DDIS gearbox is designed for a front wheel drive car. The first thing that comes to my mind is the challenge with mating the Swift 1.3 DDIS engine to the existing Gypsy gearbox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfvinay View Post
That is one combination that I was always looking for and wondering why Marithi doesn't plonk this engine in Gypsy like they did with other models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Thunder View Post
Guess you will be able to use only the engine. Are you planning to use the existing Gypsy gearbox+transfer-case ?
Good luck on this project ....as many others here, I will also be keenly following this project.
Thank you for the support friends.
Adapter plate , finding a matching gearbox to handle the torque ( I don't think I will be using the existing Gypsy gearbox) , streamlining the power delivery , mating the 4x4 system to the gearbox , fabrication of various mounts - I think these will be the top most crucial issues that will have to be sorted out.

I will need the support and help of all the Gurus here to get going.

regards,
Dr. A Ghosh
abheekg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2012, 06:22   #43
BHPian
 
Harbir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 909
Thanked: 963 Times
Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

why not the innova unit?
Harbir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2012, 09:03   #44
Senior - BHPian
 
headers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Greater Chennai
Posts: 4,548
Thanked: 424 Times
Default Re: 1.3 DDIS engine swap for Gypsy King - What all things to keep in mind ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by abheekg View Post
I actually have options for 2 common rail diesel engines for my Gypsy - one being the Swift 1.3 DDIS and the other being the Renault 1.5 dCi and maybe some others too.
Quote:
All said and done, I could not find any reference to a 1.3 Fiat common rail diesel engine swap to a samurai / Jimny / Sidekick / Gypsy.
Quote:
I am more and more convinced that there must have been some very good reason why Maruti did not bring the Swift diesel engine in the Gypsy. Which makes me wonder if I should use the swift engine or look at other options.

Lets have an answer to this question before we proceed any further.
MSIL did not bring the DDIS in the Gypsy because they are currently running short of diesel engines for the SWIFT/RITZ/DESIRE/SX4 family. Also, they have to pay royalty to every engine they use in any of their models to FIAT.

India, being India, and Gypsy being Gypsy, the market share is not going to improve drastically for them, and even if it DOES improve, they cant source the engines to meet the volumes. THIS IS the underlying fact as to why the 1.3 DDIS is not being used in the MG413W family.

GB mating, GB handling torques, Chassis handling, power-train dynamics are smaller issues when compared to the above IMO.

EDIT: How about the the Isuzu 85BHP diesel engine for a MG? Any pointers?

Last edited by headers : 29th March 2012 at 09:05.
headers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th April 2012, 18:44   #45
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,098
Thanked: 979 Times
Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

Upping the torque from around 110 to 190, means that all the drive train components need to be beefed up

1. Gear Box
2. Transfer Case
3. Front & Rear differentials
4. All the 4 axles

This is a relevant concern as I have heard a lot of modified Gypsies breaking axles, once the engine has been remapped to give higher power. In no case do I see a 1300cc petrol delivering as much torque as a diesel plant. So all the above components have to be redesigned.

This is the primary reason for not putting a Diesel engine in Gypsy.
Aroy is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Xtreme Power" finally restores a 1990 gypsy xtreme power 4x4 Vehicles 20 27th April 2014 17:25
economy diesel duel: Maruti Ritz DDiS vs Suzuki Swift DDis vs Vista quadrajet aura. s_pphilip Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports 25 29th October 2009 09:43
Swift DDiS vs Ritz DDiS vs iKool ? anoovis Hatchbacks 1 21st October 2009 13:09


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 05:22.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks