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Old 18th April 2012, 19:46   #46
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Default DDIS in Gypsy will have to wait

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Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
why not the innova unit?
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Originally Posted by headers View Post
MSIL did not bring the DDIS in the Gypsy because they are currently running short of diesel engines for the SWIFT/RITZ/DESIRE/SX4 family. Also, they have to pay royalty to every engine they use in any of their models to FIAT.

India, being India, and Gypsy being Gypsy, the market share is not going to improve drastically for them, and even if it DOES improve, they cant source the engines to meet the volumes. THIS IS the underlying fact as to why the 1.3 DDIS is not being used in the MG413W family.

GB mating, GB handling torques, Chassis handling, power-train dynamics are smaller issues when compared to the above IMO.

EDIT: How about the the Isuzu 85BHP diesel engine for a MG? Any pointers?
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Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
Upping the torque from around 110 to 190, means that all the drive train components need to be beefed up

1. Gear Box
2. Transfer Case
3. Front & Rear differentials
4. All the 4 axles

This is a relevant concern as I have heard a lot of modified Gypsies breaking axles, once the engine has been remapped to give higher power. In no case do I see a 1300cc petrol delivering as much torque as a diesel plant. So all the above components have to be redesigned.

This is the primary reason for not putting a Diesel engine in Gypsy.
Dear Friends,

Thanks for all your inputs but the DDIS engine mod will have to wait for some more time for me. I am unable to find a reliable mechanic in Nagpur who can do this for me and the project cost will go out through the roof if I were to send the vehicle to some professional installer in one of the metro cities.

However my requirement of a diesel gypsy still remains and my trusted local mechanic has been able to half-convince me to go ahead and use one of the non common rail turbo diesel engines for my Gypsy.

Infact he has suggested that I take a good look at the Indica/Indigo turbo diesel engine for my project. In his opinion, it will be easier to fit this engine in the gypsy and maintenance of this engine will also not be a very big issue as all parts / etc will be locally available. He says it will also be possible to retain the 4x4 mechanism (which is a primary objective).

However, I am not totally convinced with his plan and have the following questions for the experts :

1) Does anyone have the experience of using this engine in a Gypsy ? I have seen Ankit's thread on diesel conversion where he has used a Nissan 1.7L diesel engine. I know that isuzu 1.8L engines are also preferred for diesel conversions. Which engine in the option of all the exerts would best suite the Gypsy ?

2) Will I have to change the axles / use a stronger clutch even if I use the Indica/Indigo diesel engine ; or will my existing axles / clutch be able to handle the engine.

3) I got the following specifications of the indica/indigo engine from an online source :
  • Engine Type/Model - Turbocharged diesel engine with Intercooler
  • Displacement cc - 1405
  • Power (PS@rpm) - 70PS @4500rpm
  • Torque (Nm@rpm) - 135Nm @2500rpm
  • Valve Mechanism - SOHC
  • Bore (mm) - 75
  • Stroke (mm) - 79.5
  • Compression Ratio - 10:1
  • No of Cylinders (cylinder) - 4
  • Cylinder Configuration - Inline
  • Valves per Cylinder (value) - 2
  • Fuel Type - Diesel
  • Fuel System - Direct Injection
What other modifications will have to be made to get this engine working fine ?

4) What do I do to match the gearing ratios to this diesel engine ? How do I tackle the "matching of gear ratios" problem ?

5) I am also contemplating getting my gypsy SPOA'd . Will it be better to do the SPOA along with the engine change ?

6) I also have plans to install a rock crawling gearset in the Gypsy. Will it be prudent to do the same in the same sitting i.e change the gearing while I am changing the engine ?

I have started reading Ankit's thread about diesel conversion and the various threads by Khan Sultan to understand SPOA and the rockcrawler gearset.

Finally, I think with my decision not to go ahead with the DDIS conversion at present, this post will have to be moved away from this thread. A request to mods to do the same if indicated. I feel this project should get a separate thread of its own now in the "4x4 vehicles" section.

The project vehicle (1997 Gypsy MG410 Wide track) looks like this at present.

Name:  diesel.jpg
Views: 7498
Size:  39.4 KB

Looking for help from all quarters.

regards,
Dr. A Ghosh

Last edited by abheekg : 18th April 2012 at 19:48.
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Old 18th April 2012, 20:10   #47
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

^^: Please abandon the project if it involves changing gear ratios etc etc..too complicated IMO.

Easier conversions are 1.8 MPFi conti engine and 1.6 Suzuki Baleno Engine transplant to retain working 4x4.

If Diesel is most important - Think better NA engines..but reliability of drivetrain is suspect. What I have come across is the isuzu range in Gypsies
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Old 18th April 2012, 21:31   #48
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

I had the same plans as you to install DDIS into the Gypsy but only the purchase cost of the engine made me change my mind. As couple of years ago I tried getting one but asking price was 1.5L with everything needed to do the conversion. Went to Jeep Market Dabwali in Punjab couple of times to inquire what else I could do. What I gathered from all the mechanics about the Diesel conversion in Gypsy was only one engine highly recommended by all of them.

It was the Nissan engine(can't remember which one). According to them this was the only engine which fitted with least modification, retaining the original gearbox and 4x4.

I was told this is the only engine which does not screw up the chassis and dynamics of the Gypsy. Some where in Mayapuri you get the engine with the casted aluminium housing for the gearbox so you don't need to make an adaptor plate for the gearbox to mate it with the engine.

I don't understand why people consider SPOA instead of a very simple body lift. Why don't you consider that instead?
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Old 18th April 2012, 22:15   #49
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

Current DDis is very underpowered. It struggles to go past 150 mark and Rpm meter screams like petrol engine, only difference is that there is no power. ANd i am talking about a Ritz Vdi which is way too lighter than Gypsy.

I heard there is a larger capacity (1.9L) DDis in Suzuki's stable that powers foreign Sx4. Hope they bring this here.

technologically this engine is a marvel. Personally for petrol head like me its too much under powered. I am just using as a commuter as its lighter on my pocket.
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Old 19th April 2012, 06:38   #50
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
Current DDis is very underpowered. It struggles to go past 150 mark and Rpm meter screams like petrol engine, only difference is that there is no power. ANd i am talking about a Ritz Vdi which is way too lighter than Gypsy.

I heard there is a larger capacity (1.9L) DDis in Suzuki's stable that powers foreign Sx4. Hope they bring this here.

technologically this engine is a marvel. Personally for petrol head like me its too much under powered. I am just using as a commuter as its lighter on my pocket.
Sir SirAlec: It is very simple to make it go past the 300 mark if you want

The DDIS is one of the best engines in the world, having won several accolades in Europe, the toughest market for automobiles.

BTW, how many guys wanna go beyond 150 on a offroad situation And here Doc is looking at sighting Widlife in his Gypsy not fly past the same!
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Old 19th April 2012, 15:36   #51
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

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Originally Posted by headers View Post
Sir SirAlec: It is very simple to make it go past the 300 mark if you want

The DDIS is one of the best engines in the world, having won several accolades in Europe, the toughest market for automobiles.

BTW, how many guys wanna go beyond 150 on a offroad situation And here Doc is looking at sighting Widlife in his Gypsy not fly past the same!
300 mark? how.

150 mark! that was to imply that engine does not have enough grunt. torque figure of 19Kgm is very low. and it will further lower if you anyhow manage to put 4x4 gearbox and tcase.

Last edited by SirAlec : 19th April 2012 at 15:38.
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Old 19th April 2012, 15:47   #52
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

After contemplating a lot, I feel that there is no point in putting a DDIS engine in a Gypsy, especially if the conversion is going to be nearly 2L. A better alternative is to get a Thar DI 4x4, which will meet all the requirements of a diesel engine and off road travel in one neat package.

The whole idea of a petrol Gypsy was the quiet engine. If that is gone might as well as go for a modern diesel.
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Old 19th April 2012, 18:25   #53
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

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Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
After contemplating a lot, I feel that there is no point in putting a DDIS engine in a Gypsy, especially if the conversion is going to be nearly 2L. A better alternative is to get a Thar DI 4x4, which will meet all the requirements of a diesel engine and off road travel in one neat package.

The whole idea of a petrol Gypsy was the quiet engine. If that is gone might as well as go for a modern diesel.
I agree with THAR DI 4x4 or even a THAR CRDe 4x4 [used] and BTW modern diesels are pretty silent

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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
300 mark? how.

Simple mathematics sir!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
150 mark! that was to imply that engine does not have enough grunt. torque figure of 19Kgm is very low. and it will further lower if you anyhow manage to put 4x4 gearbox and tcase.
How does the torque lower if one instals 4x4 GB?

What Torque figure does one have in mind if one is to choose a OTR spec vehicle - 100 Kgm or 10000 Kgm?
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Old 19th April 2012, 18:46   #54
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

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I agree with THAR DI 4x4 or even a THAR CRDe 4x4 [used] and BTW modern diesels are pretty silent
The DI has better articulation, ideal for off road work. I think that the DI will also have better low end torque compared to the CRDe, so you can crawl better.

The advantage of a petrol gypsy are
- Narrow body, hence better accessibility in dense forests and narrow mountain trails
- Light weight compared to the M&M so will get bogged down less
- Silent petrol, a plus point where the diesels are banned

The down side is low highway speeds and of course thirsty petrol engine.
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Old 20th April 2012, 22:43   #55
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

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Originally Posted by headers View Post

Simple mathematics sir!
Please enlighten us mere mortals. would be thankful.


Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
How does the torque lower if one instals 4x4 GB?
WHy not? Have you not seen similar engine developing different bhp and torque.

I know what you will say next, ecu programming. But you know what. Maruti had to develop completely new 5 speeder for swift, the petrol GB that maruti had would not simply work as it could not handle the output. So clutch system is also totally different than petrol.




Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
What Torque figure does one have in mind if one is to choose a OTR spec vehicle - 100 Kgm or 10000 Kgm?
Sirji 100Kgm will roughly convert to 950 Nm. You know how much that is. Even TATA 6x4, 2518 tipper produces a modest 650Nm. and it hauls 25ton along with itself. Go figure.

Not that much but for a atleast say a modest 350Nm or 35Kgm is required.
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Old 27th April 2012, 19:42   #56
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

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Not that much but for a atleast say a modest 350Nm or 35Kgm is required.

A friggin 35 kgm or 350NM is a different league altogether - You will need a complete drivetrain change and redesigned chassis and mounts..

A small change such as crawler GBs which nearly doubles the torque creates enough havoc with the TC mounts on the Mg413W - Just imagine 3 times odd
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Old 27th April 2012, 20:35   #57
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

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Originally Posted by headers View Post
A friggin 35 kgm or 350NM is a different league altogether - You will need a complete drivetrain change and redesigned chassis and mounts..

A small change such as crawler GBs which nearly doubles the torque creates enough havoc with the TC mounts on the Mg413W - Just imagine 3 times odd
BTW the answer is for the question how much torque needed for a healthy offroading so that you are not stuck in any weird situation.

Chasis redesign ? Its just the mounting points that needs to be improvised. Gypsy uses ladderframe so issue as chasis is already stiff enough.

Every time people have put toyota or nissan diesel they have used a different GB altogether. so the answer is out of the scope of this thread.
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Old 28th April 2012, 17:28   #58
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

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BTW the answer is for the question how much torque needed for a healthy offroading so that you are not stuck in any weird situation.
One could always get stuck in a weird / funny / awkward situation as enough is "never enough" for all terrains / circumstances.

Its NOT like if one had the most powerful vehicle, one could win any event / race
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Old 29th April 2012, 16:48   #59
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

Have been following this thread intently. Usual Nissan and Toyota engines have been considered by many of you and lot of people have used it. Mayapuri is full of certain bolt on options like the Nissan CD 57 (? Correct me if I am wrong). Has someone considered a mitshubishi Lancer diesel engine by any chance? Will it work? Again I am not a technical person at all, so look for guidance from the experts.
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Old 29th April 2012, 19:49   #60
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Default Re: DDIS in 1990 Gypsy sj410, will it work?

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Originally Posted by iMASKARAN View Post
Have been following this thread intently. Usual Nissan and Toyota engines have been considered by many of you and lot of people have used it. Mayapuri is full of certain bolt on options like the Nissan CD 57 (? Correct me if I am wrong). Has someone considered a mitshubishi Lancer diesel engine by any chance? Will it work? Again I am not a technical person at all, so look for guidance from the experts.......
Theoretically, any engine & GB combination can be thought of. There is a skoda engined gypsy in bangalore. The divorced T-Case configuration of gypsy also allows various T-case options to be evaluated.

The biggest 'un-known' factors are the reliability part and will the outcome be as one had envisioned it to be.
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