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Old 9th November 2011, 16:21   #226
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

Harbir whats the news? Have you got what you were lookinf for?
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Old 11th November 2011, 08:32   #227
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

I am sorry for the no-report for such a long time. it got so embarrasing, I was too ashamed to come back here. but since there is interest, I owe you guys an explanation.

the short of it is this:

The vehicle will primarily be used day to day by my dad and on expeditions by me. and my dad was delaying the purchase because he wanted to pay cash and his money was tied up so things kinda came to a halt while we waited for his money to free up.

Once that happened, he decided that he likes the pajero, that it has adequate power for him but he can't get over why mitsubishi should be unloading dated engine technology at full prices. Its not that he needs or wants or wants more, he doesn't see why he should buy old.

So we argued about that and came to an impasse. and it looked like the impasse would break if we found a good used montero. So I looked at some more. And they were all junk. Used hard, obviously fake KM readings on the odos, brokers hawking them with lies about having service records, and no opportunity to talk to the owners.

Then I found a 2008 with 62,000km and dealt directly with the owner. This was the second best montero I have seen so far (the best was the 54k km 2007) but I wasn't happy with its ride quality over rough surfaces and I was also a bit let down by the much bulkier and sluggish feel of the 2008 after the 2007. Add to that the fact that the 2007 I had loved, the seller was talking about a deal possible around 18 lacs, while this 2008's owner wouldn't budge from 23.

I just didn't feel right about it given the price, the KM, my reservation about the ride quality. so I let it go.

Then I got a line on a 2008 manual with 30k km, asking 25lacs. I went to see it and it turned out to be a 74k km car with an auto and with a big dent.

While all this was going on, my dad asked me to look at some S class 350s as well. So I was doing that was well. Most were junk but I found one S350 that was just superb. but that fell through for the most Indian of reasons. The guy selling it was a young broker. His tau ji had given him space in his own showroom to do the same business, selling used luxury and import cars. By the time I brought my dad from chandigarh to see the car, the tau ji had kicked his nephew out and wouldn't tell me his contact info because he wanted me to buy the crappy S500 he had. I had stupidly neglected to take the young guy's mobile number. The card he'd given had the showroom's numbers and the mobile on it was the tau's number.


Then I was in chandigarh when I got a line on an S350L with 22,000km. Seller assured that the km was genuine and had full service records from a big mercedes dealer in delhi. So my dad and I drove to delhi to see the car and it turned out to be junk. The interior had heavy wear and tear, engine was noisy, the ride was poor. There was no way that car had 22,000km. The dash display said it needed new brake pads. how can a car need need new pads at 22000km anyway? the plastic switchgear had such heavy wear that not only were symbols obliterated but the black surface had worn off some of them exposing the light plastic underneath. the doors shut with a junky clang. The car probably had 200,000km on it. Certainly no less than 100,000 under any circumstance.

This was a fatal day. My dad was so disgusted and so angry at the shamelessness and dishonesty that his mood just went off totally. He became disgusted and depressed because he is a man of unimpeachable integrity and honesty who sells his own cars in top condition at low prices and just couldn't stomach the ugly game that the used car business in India is.

So for a while he decided that he wouldn't buy anything. He decided to just wait till the perfect used car appeared and till then he'd buy a honda city AT to tide him over. He rationalized it to himself by saying that he needs a small convenient car for Chandigarh anyway.

I managed to dissuade him from that and continued to look for used monteros (which is when I saw the two 2008s I mentioned above).

For a while he toyed with buying a lovely 2006 S350 we saw for 35 lacs but decided against it.

Over the weekend, I am going to go look at 4 more Monteros, two 2007s and two 2008s. I have very little hope.

So the situation now is that my dad doesn't want a pajero, I won't let him buy a Fortuner under any circumstance, and we can't find a good used Montero.

So for now I'm continuing to look for used Monteros and hoping that I can find another one like that brilliant 2007 we lost.

in the mean time all the dealers and brokers are pissed off with me because I keep looking and rejecting and they are convinced that I am not serious because nobody spends 6 months looking for a vehicle.

If anybody knows of a good used montero, please let me know.

Last edited by Harbir : 11th November 2011 at 08:46.
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Old 11th November 2011, 08:56   #228
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

very honestly, I am of the view that its time to accept that good used monteros are not available and to move on. but my dad isn't ready to move on. So I keep looking for used monteros.

I also developed a certain amount of respect for the Fortuner. I followed one in my accord on NH1, going 140km/h and found it to be a strong accelerating vehicle that is comfortable holding high speeds in Indian conditions.If the objective is to have an SUV that can cruise 140km/h, the Fortuner is a very good choice. but its not for us.

Last edited by Harbir : 11th November 2011 at 09:22.
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Old 11th November 2011, 09:52   #229
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

@HARBIR:I can quite relate to your situation after going through the last couple of posts.

A little anecdote to cheer you up:If it is the Montero you want, beleive me there is no other SUV youre going to like.You talk of starting to RESPECT the Fortuner, but I am sure that is more of a kickback from your wasted efforts to find one.I, for one, myself went through such a phase when my heart was set on getting the most pristine of vRSs out there and we all know how rare clean ones with a genuine low mileage are.So over the next 14 months...(yes 14!) I shamelessly hopped through dealers/private sellers/authorised workshops and what not with a small but specific breif..A vRS with 25k odo reading and no more/3-3.5 years old and no more/single owner/Black..and beleive me over the period of those 14 months I saw only 3-4 vRSs that satisfied maybe 1 or at the maximum 2 of my 4 main parameters, apart from the one I finally bought.I learnt the hard way that at some point of time you need to revise some parameters and I was ready to revise all of mine..all for the love of that 1 car.

And beleive me somewhere in between, in all of my disillusionment with my wasted efforts, I did look at cars ranging from new Getz CRDis to new Balenos to Sonata Emberas to Accords(all of these searches documented on 3-4 threads here including my ownership report and the story of how I finally got my dream vRS) but all of them were just a way to distract the mind, for in my heart of hearts I knew there was no other that could replace the RS.Till one day out of the blue, God decided that he had tested me enough and sent me a car that was destined to be mine(a story some of my friends in the Kolkata Tbhp gang would vouch for).So take heart man, the wait is nothing compared to the joy of finally getting something you had your eyes on to cut a long story short.You dont want to be spending 23L on a new Fortuner to realise after 2 months that it cannot replace the Montero.

PS:If you are open to looking at a used Montero from this side of the country, I'll keep an eye out..Slim chances, but then you never know.I did'nt (with my vRS)!!

Last edited by octane1002 : 11th November 2011 at 09:59.
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Old 11th November 2011, 11:58   #230
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

Harbir,
Don't loose heart ! Post no 63, 69 and also 66 have been so realistically written, that i too have become one big Pajero fan. But you still need to test out a new fortuner on the same track to take a final call and to 'enlighten' forum members'. That is the whole purpose of this forum.

Btw, i did see some automatic gear Pajeros in team-bhp classified. Are these imports ? Are new Pajeros available in automatic guise ? Can't the Pajero engine power be upped with a pete or some other power box ?
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Old 11th November 2011, 13:04   #231
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

Every one is searching for a bargain, but at times it is just not available.

The thing that I glean from the experiences of members searching for used Montero in good condition, is that they are just not available. The reason is very simple, the older versions of the Montero were excellent value for money, hence no one is willing to let it go before extracting full value. Practically no one is buying them new today, as it is no longer a viable option, the Prado is a much better value for money.

Thus you are left with the new Pajero, which in my opinion is an ideal vehicle for narrow hill dirt roads, primarily due to its narrower and lighter body. Add to that its simpler mechanics and low penetration of electronics, there is no competition in reliability and ease of maintenance.

Once again I would reiterate, that the Pajero may be old technology, but it is eminently suited for the purpose, and you will be hard pressed finding a competing product which gives you the ruggedness, ride quality and relatively low maintenance at this price point. Abroad there is the Land Cruiser Series 7x (70, 71,73 etc) which can match or exceed the capability, but these are just not available here.

Last edited by Aroy : 11th November 2011 at 13:24.
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Old 12th November 2011, 07:22   #232
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
my dad was delaying the purchase because he wanted to pay cash
Just wanted to clear up something. When I say he wants to pay cash, I mean he wants to pay for the car entirely with his own money by writing a cheque, instead of financing it or taking a loan.

Its an american usage on buying cars that I picked up. I didn't mean that he literally wants to take a suitcase full of 1000 rupee notes to the dealership!

_________

As to the other points:

I've told my dad that if none of the monteros I am going to look at over the weekend work out, he should give up on monteros. He didn't make any commitments. I think I'll just have to go look at the vehicles and see how he feels at the end of it.

I am reluctant to give up myself because after all, I did see two good monteros. who knows, the third one might be perfect.

but I am also now fairly certain that if we find a good montero, it will be by accident because people are extracting the maximum value from their monteros, then handing them over to fraud brokers to sell for big prices.

My concern is that most of the monteros out there are selling for about half the price of a new one, but have much much less than half the vehicle's good life left (when it brakes, steers, accelerates and generally performs as it was designed to). This is in contradiction to the typical rule of used cars wherein depreciation is steeper than the usage of a car (used cars lose more of their value then they do of their serviceable life)

I am now fairly certain that this is typical of India and that in this country used cars are dangerous because Indians defy this rule by extracting the most out of the serviceable life out of their cars and then selling them when they can get more money than use out of the car.

There are exceptions of course (like my dad almost sold my mother's perfect condition 25,000km 2008 honda civic for 6 lacs in 2010 until I found out and stopped him and made him apologize to the buyer and back out of the sale) but that seems to be the norm. So spending 20 lacs on a used car is a pretty risky business, especially if its a rare machine like the montero.

So lets see how it goes from here. I am advising my dad to buy a new vehicle. I told him last night that he should buy a new Pajero and if he is absolutely opposed to a new pajero, then he should forget about my needs for an expedition vehicle (I'll make my own arrangements) and just satisfy his own highway and urban needs which are best suited by a new car and that he should just buy an AT Accord or a Laura vRS or, wait till the next gen Camry arrives, and just forget about Monteros and S Class.

He heard me out but its not what his heart wants (which is a montero or an S Class).

So lets see.
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Old 12th November 2011, 10:14   #233
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

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Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
but I am also now fairly certain that if we find a good montero, it will be by accident because people are extracting the maximum value from their monteros, then handing them over to fraud brokers to sell for big prices.

My concern is that most of the monteros out there are selling for about half the price of a new one, but have much much less than half the vehicle's good life left (when it brakes, steers, accelerates and generally performs as it was designed to). This is in contradiction to the typical rule of used cars wherein depreciation is steeper than the usage of a car (used cars lose more of their value then they do of their serviceable life)

I am now fairly certain that this is typical of India and that in this country used cars are dangerous because Indians defy this rule by extracting the most out of the serviceable life out of their cars and then selling them when they can get more money than use out of the car.

There are exceptions of course (like my dad almost sold my mother's perfect condition 25,000km 2008 honda civic for 6 lacs in 2010 until I found out and stopped him and made him apologize to the buyer and back out of the sale) but that seems to be the norm. So spending 20 lacs on a used car is a pretty risky business, especially if its a rare machine like the montero.

So lets see how it goes from here. I am advising my dad to buy a new vehicle. I told him last night that he should buy a new Pajero and if he is absolutely opposed to a new pajero, then he should forget about my needs for an expedition vehicle (I'll make my own arrangements) and just satisfy his own highway and urban needs which are best suited by a new car and that he should just buy an AT Accord or a Laura vRS or, wait till the next gen Camry arrives, and just forget about Monteros and S Class.
Well I am glad that you have woken up to the great Indian Psyche. "Why sell if there is an ounce of life left". That is one of the reasons I am vary of buying second hand cars, you never know how much of value is left.

Personally, unless I am a good mechanic and know my vehicle inside out (have appropriate tools and can carry out most of the repairs myself), I would not venture into expedition with a second hand vehicle of unknown pedigree. The reason I am constantly rooting for a new Pajero, is because it is an ideal vehicle for expeditions - rugged, reliable and good suspension. On top of that is weighs less and is slightly narrow, a desirable trait for traversing narrow hill trails. Last but not the least, you yourself have discovered its effortless climbing capability, unmatched by competition.

I hope that you will get your expedition vehicle soon, and waiting eagerly for its review.
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Old 12th November 2011, 11:03   #234
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

fascinating. one of the 4 I was supposed to look at is a car I've inquired about before. Its the same broker who keeps advertising it and then tells you its sold and can he interest you in something else. Very strange.

the second of the 4 the guy tells me that the car has a delhi number but is based in lukhnow and will never be available in delhi to be shown. So why is it advertised in delhi? The broker says "you should forget about this vehicle"

what the heck?

Anyway, I am going to go and look at 2 today and I think if neither of these works out, I will start pushing my dad to forget about Monteros.
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Old 12th November 2011, 14:55   #235
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

I drove two just now, a black 2007 and a white 2008.

the 2007 showed heavy wear inside and out, out of proportion with the 66k km the odo showed. It drove well, however, but the handling and braking was not in the league of the 2007 I drove earlier.

It was very instructive to drive the 2007 and 2008 back to back. The 2008 looks much more modern and its got a more modern interior. I however much prefer the older interior aesthetically and ergonomically. MUCH BETTER. I also felt that the 2007 has a better view out than the 2008, but that might have been an illusion.

To drive, the 2007 just blows the 2008 away. I had been feeling this with all these test drives but the back to back really confirmed it. the 2007 is so much more thrusty, so much quicker, so much more responsive to the throttle, so much more urgent feeling. The 2008 is sluggish in comparison, ponderous feeling. The same goes for the handling. the 2007 is also much more tossable around corners and steers much better.

After this drive, I decided that if I was earlier tending towards the 2007, it was now 100% sure. I would not choose the 2008 over the 2007.

Then my dad and I went to lunch and as he read his newspaper and I my copy of Top Gear, I did some thinking and decided to rule out the Montero all together.

At the end of the day, the fact is, just as a vehicle for the road, the montero isn't very good. In terms of ride, comfort, ease of use, maneuverability, handling, rear seat comfort, a montero is no match for a car like an accord or a superb or a laura or anything else above about 10 lacs. We have no need nor respect for the dadagiri or style aspect of SUVs.

so where is the need for my dad to buy a high risk used up montero? The idea was that we'd get a vehicle that was both expedition capable and good on-road vehicle.

but frankly, the montero isn't as good an on-road vehicle as I would expect if I think clear headedly and without the desire clouding my judgment. Combine that with the both the risk of the used vehicles and the fact that at the very least half their life is gone, I begin to question the whole premise.

So I talked to my dad and we agreed to scratch the montero out of consideration for good.

The question now is whether my dad should just buy a nice new sedan like the accord or the pajero. Atleast it'd be new, atleast as good on road(lousy engine and crummy ergonomics but much more tossable and agile around town), and a lot better off road.

I think it will be some time while we work out whats going to happen so no dramatic resolution to this thread.

Last edited by Harbir : 12th November 2011 at 15:01.
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Old 12th November 2011, 16:44   #236
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

Hmmm, quite a bit of twists and turns.

So are we finally considering the New Fortuner vs New Pajero vs New Koleos vs XUV 500? Or are all the above out in favour of new sedans?

Cheers
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Old 12th November 2011, 17:23   #237
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

Pajero is the only one that remains in contention. All the others are out.

Its down to a pajero or a sedan.
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Old 12th November 2011, 18:16   #238
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

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Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
Pajero is the only one that remains in contention. All the others are out.

Its down to a pajero or a sedan.
Get a Pajero for your self and an Accord for your Dad. An Accord is an excellent chauffeur driven car. Even a 3-4 year of specimen (if you are inclined to go the VFM way) will have more than 7-10 years life left, else from what I have read in this forum and seen my neighbours acquiring, a Superb is an excellent buy, provided you get a good Skoda dealer.
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Old 12th November 2011, 23:46   #239
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

Hi Harbir:

I have been reading your posts with interest. Post #102 was very well written and lucidly captured the essential points of difference between Pajero and Fortuner.

Whilst I understand your dilemma, the truth is that none of the SUVs on sale in India currently is a complete package (including value for money). Pajero would have been immensely desirable for somewhere around Rs.15 lakhs for example. One has to decide, therefore, on the needs. My needs were similar to yours and I bought a Pajero after some deliberation and just one test drive each of a Pajero, Endeavour, Captiva, X-trail and Fortuner.

The main reason why I never considered a second hand vehicle with low-range transfer case was because I was quite apprehensive of the way it has been used. This was amply vindicated when, once when I had taken my Pajero for service, a 'gentleman' asked me to explain what the 'second gear lever' was for. His vehicle had done 55000km. When I explained, he slapped the driver on his head and said "Samjha? Ab aise hi chalaiyo". As I walked away, he asked what that small round knob below the air-conditioning vent with one blue picture and one black picture was for...I wanted to ask him to read the manual but realized it was in English.

I just had my fuel tank and skid plate replaced so that should give you an idea of the terrain I take the vehicle to. I have driven the Pajero at 150 on a few occasions. I do not find anything wrong with the car. You may think I am biased since I own one. I assure you I am not. I don't like the NVH levels of the Pajero besides a few other things. I would gladly trade it for a Range Rover or a Jeep Rubicon (if not asked to pay extra). But in my view if one has a budget of Rs.25 lakhs, considering that second hand vehicles are a seriously risky proposition, there is no better SUV available. The key differentiator is that Pajero is designed from scratch to be a SUV whilst its competitors are afterthoughts (pick-ups converted). Do not intend to offend owners and prospective owners or fans of Endeavour and Fortuner.

Hope you are able to resolve the conflict soon.

Cheers!
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Old 15th November 2011, 13:17   #240
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

As of today, the Montero is absolutely out. As I said, I suddenly realized that its a pretty lousy road vehicle for 45 lacs new, and you get pretty lousy ones in the used car market.

my dad has gone off 4x4s.

He decided to buy a sedan and he's asking about used S class cars around 50-60 lacs but I am advising against buying used vehicles in India all together. I have honestly felt like people india discard their cars like dirty stained underwear for the next sucker to put on. I'm really turned off. So he is now looking at buying a new Audi A6 or BMW 5 series.

And I am on my own for an expedition vehicle for my needs. I have an accord as a daily driver. So do I save money and buy a gypsy and use the accord primarily, or do I buy a pajero and retire the accord to occasional use?

The story continues, but for now seems to be drifiting away from 4x4 in the immediate term. as and when there are developments, I will post. In the mean time, consider the topic as having gone dormant

Last edited by Harbir : 15th November 2011 at 13:32.
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